Forum - View topicREVIEW: Shigurui: Death Frenzy DVD
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dragonknight1234
Posts: 8 |
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I read the box blurb. :) But you know, for all the talk of "excessive" violence, it is a show about slicing people up and was hardly marketed for everybody (broadcast on a private satellite). The show doesn't approve of the main characters in any way regardless. In fact... spoiler[the narrator notes at a pivotal part in the story the changing nature of the two primary characters. It's a story that equates the pursuit of revenge and ego satisfaction with an unreasonable, hollow road of violence and solitude. However, unlike say, the movie Blood and Bones which has a completely detestable lead, Shigurui's characters earn a little sympathy through the fact that the most basic nature of their plights are universal in nature. However, in the end, violence only isolates both characters.] To say that this show promotes violence because it's there would be akin to saying something like Requiem for a Dream promotes drugs. The way it's used is what counts. I personally think it's used to great effect in this series. I thought only a few scenes were unreasonable or excessive, those being... spoiler[The cat (which is quite random and uncalled for), the nipple (though this is slightly more justificed as it further establishes Kogan as an unreasonably violent madman), and the final battle, though I don't think it's that unreasonable, seeing that Angel Cop beat Shigurui in uber-violent braining by almost 2 decades. Hell, I laughed. :D] Everything else contributes to a very cynical, nihilistic atmosphere, though if you watch the show, you'll find that it's hardly guts flying in every direction all the time. It's mostly blood, some fairly non-graphic decapitations, and red cut marks. The scenes including anything really graphic are far and few in between, making said scenes far more emotionally involving than something as ultra-violence dense as, say, Ninja Scroll. |
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JackCox
 Posts: 386 |
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I think this series needs to be reviewed by someone who has the stomach for it. Yes it's mysoginistic. But I'd rather someone tell me the truth about what went on in Feudal Japan rather than lie about it. I will admit some parts are embellished but the gist of it is true.
And I know I shouldn't question this but Carl did you actually watch this show or were your eyes averted most of the time? Because I'm getting the feeling they should have given this to somebody who can watch this and will flinch but not turn away from it. [Do not post mutliple times in a row. FIxed it for you, edit your post from now on.] |
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vashfanatic
 Posts: 3491 Location: Back stateside |
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Who?? Also, condense them all in one post rather than triple-posting.
And it finally comes... the "you clearly did not do your job and watch this series because you disagree with me" comment. Honestly, guys, thing how pissed you'd be reading a review Ms. Brienza wrote for this; I'm sure it would make Kliminger's seem timid. *removed* |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Thank you for replying.
Why should we be thinking of entertainment in terms of benefit? Beneficial in terms of what? A lot of the core, fundamental values that are taught without any saught of graphic material -- excessive or otherwise -- is primarily devoted to children's entertainment -- friendship, honesty, loyalty, confidence, et cetera. This is gradually filtered as the demographics shift, turning to more explicit content. I'd think of this as reflective of cynicism. This may represent frustrations and precisely how messages are presented -- i.e. we only become affected by different extremes in entertainment as we age -- but I see absolutely no reason why one should not only: A) Consider any sort of fiction other than overt propaganda (such as from World War II) as moral and B) Why one should make the link that because one is entertained by fictional violence, where one is distanced from the reality to varying degrees, to the actual slaughter and senseless lose of lives only for distraction and mere entertainment (which is serves as the basis for the historical event, the novel, and then the manga and anime adaptions). I consider myself very moral when it comes real, tangible cases violences and sexual abuse, and do not appreciate being compared to the depraved citizens partaking in the observation of fights in the Roman Coliseum, or the daimyo who took delight in forcing samurai to fight with actual, real swords -- the incident in question starting at the beginning of Shigurui -- simply because I can find some sort of enjoyment/interest in watching/reading fictional violence, regardless of its artistic merits.
There's no one element that can perfectly nail down the appeal to Shiguri, really. There's a freak-show tend of curiosity; the indictment and disillusionment of the system of the time that evokes Harakiri; the disgust and morbid fascination at seeing what lengths these characters go to in order to achieve what they want; the depiction of what "shigurui" truly represents in the Bushido code; the methodical, rhythymic direction and how deeply Hamazaki understands the importance of art, music and varying internal and external pacing to create a story; the absurdist tragedy that ultimately allows severe punishments in a karma-like way to all characters involved; so and so forth. Really, I ask: is there any real difference in principle between enjoyment of Shigurui and Hellsing, at least for base enjoyment. Zac is known as a significant fan of the franchise, and has given positive reviews for the television series and the OVA series, as well as praise for the original manga. Is he like those in the Roman Coliseum, as well?
Not only is this word losing its power through overuse, it's definition has changed to be synonymous with sexism. This is frustrating, particularly when the works being accused of misogyny simply aren't.
Hey, it took three pages to get there; most other threads would take only three posts. |
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vashfanatic
Posts: 3491 Location: Back stateside |
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Yeah, I was starting to get worried that maybe internet forum politeness was actually on the rise for a second there! I do have to agree that in the advertising I've seen for Shigurui has in fact used the violent content as its selling point. It shows characters soaked in blood and skeletons rather than, say, the repeated motifs of cicadas to represent the brief lives of the characters. The advertisers clearly are cashing in on the ultraviolence angle rather than the grim contemplative side of the series. |
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Courbet
Posts: 47 |
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Right, time for me to lay down the law!
My opinions are as follows, they are correct and shall not be criticised: Shigurui is beautiful to look upon, the character designs are great, the art is great and overall it without a doubt should receive between an A and B. The level of violence is extreme and totally unnecessary in places, but it certainly doesnt beat around the bush. I was hoping for Ninja Scroll levels of violence and sex, and I honestly think if they would have achieved that it would have been a far better series, instead they pole-vaulted over that imaginary line and into the land of OMFG that is totally disgusting, I feel like throwing up. I didn't, but the violence and torture did approach in the gratuitous in places. The story wasnt bad in places, a bit ponderous, but did its job adequately, but all of the main characters for so unlikeable, its was hard to connect with any of them. Shigurui's biggest problem is that if one asks: 'Was the journey worth it?' the answer is a: No Why? Well because the series is incomplete, the final fight never happens, never concludes and while I even was tempted to pick up the manga just to find out how the story finishes I just couldnt be bothered as, mentioned earlier, none of the characters had that great an appeal. Another 3 or 4 episodes just to come full circle properly and finish the tale and Shigurui might have left an overall better impressions, but as it stands, compare it to Babylon AD if youre a Vin Diesel fan - great ideas, alot of flair, but could have been so much better. |
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vashfanatic
Posts: 3491 Location: Back stateside |
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Actually, Mr. Kliminger didn't say anything about BDSM fantasies; he said: "Add to that his skin-crawling lolicon fan-service—which includes a brutal whipping in which eight-year-old Fate's clothes are flayed from her body as she hangs trussed from a rope—and the series is pretty grim going." His complaint throughout the review was that Nanoha was a derivative knockoff composed of cliches poached from other, better magical girl series. He's not biased against moe, he's biased against what he considers crap. Nor does one statement you consider inaccurate invalidate everything else said. You can be wrong on one thing and nonetheless raise valid points elsewhere. It's just another tactic people use to attack the critic when he or she disagrees with them. |
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strawberry-kun
Posts: 301 |
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Except if you have seen that scene, it's clearly not fanservice in any way, shape, or form. Besides, how does that statement not come off as BDSM fantasy? He's implying that the scene is fanservice there.
I know he considers it crap. No argument there. However, it sounds to me like he was set to hate the show and needed to try and grab onto something to hate. A lot of the points he made in the review are vast exaggerations if anything IMO.
In my view, when someone is that off base about something, it does. |
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vashfanatic
Posts: 3491 Location: Back stateside |
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Well, you're totally off-base on that, so I'm going to just disregard everything you say from now on (besides, I have better things to do than debate a months-old review for a series I've never seen). |
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strawberry-kun
Posts: 301 |
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Go ahead. It's not like I was taking what you said seriously 
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rekishi
Posts: 78 |
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*removed*
@BleuVII: of course it counts as a informed decision. why wouldn't it? if you're turned off by the cover art, you're probably not going to like the show. i didn't say you had to like it; though i do believe the old adage "never judge a book by it's cover" might come into play. @vashfanatic: if you read what i said properly. i.e "violence aside" meaning i'm not talking about the violence in comparison to Texhnolyze... in fact, i made a special point to exclude it from the comparison. the artistic imagery in Shigurui is what i was comparing to Texhnolyze. i used the rest of my post, to explain the nature of the violence and i'm pretty sure i was exact when describing that Shigurui is extremely violent. i'm not getting into the nitty gritty of it, cos it's gross, but i can't see how the violence isn't realistic for what happens. for anime, it's very realistic in any case. i would not deny that Shigurui isn't for everyone. i made sure in my second post that people realised that it is violent and visually shocking. but, i was trying to portray, that it's like "war movie violence"... realistic and unforgiving, to set an atmosphere that isn't very pleasant. it's not a very fun show. but neither is a Movie like Saving Private Ryan, or Shindler's List, but they're very good films. as is Shigurui. you just have to be prepared to see some very ugly imagery. if that isn't your thing, then i suggest you don't watch it. the review, tells everyone not to watch. pretty much denouncing any positives the show might have. and that's unfair. |
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BleuVII
 Posts: 672 Location: Tokorozawa, Japan |
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@ Dragonknight1234. Thanks for your reply. It was really good.
@ HellKorn. What I meant by "benefit" was "benefit to the product." I tried to give an example of that, but I probably should have been more clear. I will definitely agree that as we get older, the types of stories we come across have a lot more shades of gray, but I don't think that they ever lose their moral quality. Maybe it's not in the text, but I can't think of any story I've ever read that didn't have at least a trace of moral subtext. I really want to try to give some more insight into your question here:
It's a good question. I think it has more to do with quality than quantity. I do not object to the presence of violence, but to the reason why it is included. To put it in a different context, compare, let's say Braveheart and the first Saw movie. The level of violence in the two movies are pretty comparable, but the reason why it's there is different. I haven't seen either Shigurui or Hellsing, so I feel a bit blind comparing them, but from everything I've heard, it seems like the plot in Shigurui is subservient to the action and violence. That is to say, it seems like the violence is the main attraction. It is THAT which I compare to the Coliseum, not the presence of violence in general. As for the divide between real and fictional, you definitely have a point. It is a point that I respect, but I don't personally agree with it. I think that the two affect each other a lot more than we'd like to admit. I can't prove my viewpoint any more than you can prove yours (there are many cases that go each way), but it is a conclusion I have reached after many years of contemplation (and working with children, who aren't nearly as adept at creating emotional and social masks). I just want to finish by describing the cover that I looked at and was so turned off by. It was from the Japanese version. It depicted a faux Japanese woodcut of a bare-chested, heavily muscled, attractive male with a cut in his abdomen and his intestines hanging out. It actually communicated a great deal about the series to me. |
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DKL
 Posts: 1956 Location: California, USA |
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I'm... honestly having a hard time following the logic here.
You're describing the marketing for the show (which, honestly, is quite true; I'm pretty sure FUNimation is pushing it for the "violence factor" and I'm pretty sure this is kinda how I remember how Christopher Bevins pushed it on the AoD boards), but you're going on as if the marketing is an accurate assessment of the show when you've not actually seen the show (you're like talking about like CODE GEASS or whatever and how the violence is justified or whatever just because you've seen it and it didn't seem excessive and then you describe how the violence was beneficial... then, going by this, you assume that the violence in Shigurui isn't beneficial, despite not having vaguely even seen it, but going on how people have described it). Like, head over to FUNimation's site or something and see the first episode and comment on that (if only to validate your assumptions, which, I'm pretty sure it will anyway, so I don't know why I'm assisting you). Maybe I'm just annoyed that you're stretching yourself despite not having actually seen the show in question. |
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dragonknight1234
Posts: 8 |
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Anytime. I always enjoy a good intellectual conversation. :D Didn't see the Japanese cover, but yeah, that sounds somewhat excessive and exploiting. That's a shame, really, because I bend towards the opinion that the violence is complements the story nicely and is more of a visual tool rather than an attraction. In fact, the plot is carefully crafted and wonderfully subtle, which may be the reason why the reviewer thought it was nothing but violence (because it flew over his head? ;P And to Courbet, no, we didn't need a final battle. The point was that it didn't matter who won). But a moral quality certainly exists, and it shows through quite nicely, such as when spoiler[Fujiki slices off the hand of his mentor-turned-traitor in one of the more graphic scenes. His stolid reaction (or lack thereof) as he's covered in a blood nicely portrays his desensitivity to life and obsession with Seigen quite vividly] Quite honestly, I don't think it's a show you can judge by it's cover, and if Funimation is exploiting the violence route to advertise it, can you really blame them? Anime is already a niche market, and I don't think marketing it for it's subtle (and rather slow-paced, at times) story would have been effective. I mean, hey, the first episode alone has a 2:30 scene with two guys just facing off with each other. That sadly won't send dvds flying off shelves. ^^; It's all about money, sadly, but hey, it's hard to blame them. I would suggest watching the first episode of the series. You'll more or less get a good idea of what the show is like from that. :) |
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Ian K
 Posts: 250 |
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@BleuVII:
I understand your concern about the needless glorification of violence. I share it, to an extent, although I have to admit I like many shows that have excessive amounts. But it should be noted that there are multiple factors at work, it's not always equivalent to watching gladiatorial contests. On one hand, action can be fun to watch from an ascetic standpoint (example: Eureka 7 with its multi-colored aerial battles - or any mecha show, really). Sometimes violence is appealing because through it the protagonist overcomes challenges (maybe the enemy, or maybe internal issues) that for whatever reason cannot be overcome via less extreme methods. And sometimes people watch violence for the visceral reaction to the pain on display. This is the factor that is most similar to that of the Romans at the coliseum. This isn't necessarily always a bad thing, and many war movies try to recapture their subject as fully as possible to help audiences understand the sacrifice of those who have served and died to protect them. Still, there seems to be a market for simply seeing people suffer, as the recent trend in 'torture porn' shows. I know that personally I find the idea of enjoying watching someone suffer abhorrent. Whew, sorry for the wall of test. Back to the matter at hand. Shigurui's content is rather extreme, and I think they didn't really need to go to the lengths that they did. So why watch it? Shigurui challenges our assumptions about human nature. It says that there is a very nasty streak in all of us that can be brought out under the right conditions. One can argue about how accurate this really is, but I think it is a valid and important argument. Once we have been reminded of the nastiness in human nature, we can then take the steps necessary to protect ourselves and our society from it. I'm not saying Shigurui is something everyone should watch, or that anyone who doesn't enjoy it is wrong. Heck, I wouldn't say I "enjoyed" it myself. My point is simply that for those who can stomach its content there is value that can be found. |
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