Forum - View topicINTEREST: Wall Street Journal Reports on Manga Piracy
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14795 |
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The selection of computer games has shrunk in stores because there are fewer and fewer PC games. The "Games for Windows" project by Microsoft hasn't worked out well, and PC games are easier to pirate (that's why they push online games instead - the game is "cheap," but you have to pay to play on their servers). More games are released in favor of consoles and handhelds. And from the many gamers I know, when they buy games, they prefer the physical discs over downloads because they can bring and play the games with them on their friends' platforms - then lend it or resell it if they get tired of it. Gamers who buy tend to be collectors too. |
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mad mac
Posts: 186 |
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That's interesting. I haven't personally set foot in a library in years because if I'm going to drive 10-15 miles to look for a book, I'd rather just drop by a bookstore instead. At least that way I don't have to make a return trip or worry about just how many unpaid late fees I've racked up over the years. But then, I don't read anything online unless I couldn't get it elsewhere, so that's just me. I do enjoy my physical books, even if they're destined to fall over and kill me in my sleep someday. And while it's true the scanlation sites make most of their ill-gotten ad revenue off of published titles, it's the latest chapters of Naruto and Bleach that all the kids are hitting their sites for. Even if libraries suddenly became popular again, it won't solve that problem. |
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ArsenicSteel
 Posts: 2370 |
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I don't regularly listen to ANNcasts or generally opinionated media. The buzzwords, tropes, and finger pointing that has erupted in media has made listening to some people more of bothersome than informative. And at what point am I supposed to believe that the 20% sales drop is a direct correlation to those particular scans he happened to find. So the guy finds 1 group that has scanned Vertical's version of a manga but what about the dozens of other versions that existed before hand. The circular argument you should be concerned with is the courthouse circlejerk that will be played every few months as one scan site gets shutdown and another pops up. @Paploo Are you talking to yourself about libraries? Cause I don't see anyone in this thread bringing up or countering the benefits of libraries you go in. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Which, it's worth pointing out, are platforms where several digital distribution models have also been adopted for a number of games with greater or lesser degrees of success. Digital distribution isn't a phenomenon exclusive to PC gaming, even though it's admittedly more predominant there than on consoles (and I'd say the same about piracy). I don't think the issue is "physical vs. digital" as much as it is "physical and digital" at the end of the day. There are people who will always prefer physical copies and I agree with that position in certain cases, but there is nothing to be gained from ignoring the fact that digital distribution for all kinds of media is on the rise, not the other way around, across the board. Expanding the digital market availability of manga is just one more part of the process. If anything, improving digital distribution is an important part of effectively fighting piracy. The bad news is that it's been seriously underused so far, which makes the fact that a lot more needs to be done rather self-evident. |
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OLady
Posts: 163 Location: Texas |
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Oh, dear. Please forgive me. I side tracked myself and answered an off-topic question within my summary.
Where this was all going before I so rudely interrupted myself was: Charge the scanlators a pro-rata price based on the number of hits each series receives. It is possible to monitor the IRC. Each scanlated series lists its scanlation group, their website and IRC location. Their IRC location is the place to begin tracing the individual contributors. I believe most would just quit rather than pay or face personal legal charges. There will inevitably be a lot of wrangling, wiggling and loopholes until things settle out. But lack of scanlators means no aggregate sites. Please feel free to tear this suggestion apart, but I ask that you propose an alternate plan for each point you bring up. |
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noobiesnack
Posts: 34 |
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@Olady: You are living in a fantasy world if you think scanlation groups will give up. Go back to hugging your pink unicorns or face reality. It is not possible to monitor IRC or torrent hits. Mostly because you can actively change channels and providers within seconds.
And Good Luck charging scanlators a pro-rata price based on each hit. Unfortunately, since this number CANT be proven in a court of law, they can only go with an estimate. About the only thing they can do if they are short on money is find a way to start making money. Lawyer fees will be so expensive to shut down the sites only to have 3 more take its place will drain their financial situation down to nothing and they will be forced to give up. Also, they really can't do much to scanlators themselves at this point. The scanlators are not making profit while manga-aggregators are. Since there is profit being made, they can actually go after them with the knowledge of the law they have. Right now, they have to spend even more money to pay the lawyers to research what they can and can't do against scanlators. Also, do you know how many people scanlate? Most of them work for free and some even have to pay for website upkeep. There are so many groups scattered across the internet, it will take many, many years to hunt them all down. And then you have to deal with new ones that form and groups that break apart and form under a new name. There is no way to avoid this except by using a time machine, getting on National news TV 4 years ago, and then tell everyone that pirating manga is bad. Again, fight fire with fire. If you want the piracy to stop, do what they want or dont complain at all. They won't be able to live off such a suggestion. If they want to live off something, grab one of these manga-aggregation sites by a leash and let them run like they are and then leach off of the ad revenue. They need to step out of the fog that keeps telling flashing 'I could make x amount if that many people bought my manga' into 'How can I get x amount of sales'. Right now, priorities are in the wrong places... @Paploo: So, im supposed to believe his words to be true just because he is on a news network? So I should believe every statistic Fox news throws at me right? NO. At best, it gives something to throw around on the internet to try and make you look smart. When there is actual numbers with the proof to support them, let me know. And yes, everything is a circular argument. No matter where you start, you will be led right back to the same point. That is why this issue is so delicate but they are taking a delicate situation in a way that does NOT favor them. Also, the entire world as a whole has turned into a bunch of jerks. Literally, in a world where you are competing in a world with almost 7 billion other people, one has to question whether Darwinism is taking over or not. For the most part, I am not speaking for myself, I am just here to bash apart all this nonsense where everyone seems to think that the world is a place filled with pink unicorns and hundreds of girls/guys are flocking all over you. And yeah, I know there are cartoonists out there. I have thought about it from their perspective, but unfortunately in today's world it is a sad truth. It is going to happen. You can either ignore it or go with it. There is no stopping it, even though I wish there was. For those of you who think it can be stopped, tell me in what world you live in so I can come join you. This has become a very horrible situation for both the artists and the publishers. They have no one else but themselves to blame though. They had opportunities to prevent this from happening and now its gotten past the point of no return. All they can do now is salvage what is left of the people who want a legal place to read online. The rest of the pirates are kind of pointless to stop. You will be fighting all eternity before they stop. I could say, much, much more... but meh... I am having fun debating. |
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OLady
Posts: 163 Location: Texas |
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[quote="Paploo"]
When did fans start becoming active jerks towards creators? A bit of a tangent, but it's so wierd to see, and kind of insulting. Whining to get free stuff online is a gentler, less unsettling version of this phenomenon [the aboves are more extreme[, but I hope i've communicated to you why this sort of stuff sets me and others off.[/quote/] I find this "fan" behavior repulsive. It started when greedy, self-centered, spoiled children decided that they should have whatever they wanted, when they wanted it. If that means throwing a three-year-old's temper tantrum, they will, shamelessly and without embarrassment. They have not figured out that no one is their servant. Hopefully, life will disabuse them of this notion and introduce them to the fact that they are not the center of the universe. (lol. I am.) |
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bayoab
Posts: 831 |
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That was an on the books for profit calculations comparison, not an actual comparison.
(*Actually, we can compare sales numbers before and after the Naruto Nation push... 2009 sales peaked with volume 43 of 46 [by 10k units] and 2008 peaked with vol 28 of 33 [by 25k units]. ) |
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noobiesnack
Posts: 34 |
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@bayoab: Series got canceled left and right because of MULTIPLE reasons. Take this is to account besides scanlators: Unemployment skyrocket, The near crash of the stock exchange, rising oil prices, the global depression felt by everyone, a very high digital demand, and a overall political mess in the US. This is not a good market that is going to be nice to you. If you think righteous attempts will get anything, they wont.
As for that, they dont WANT to digitize their manga, which is the reason why OpenManga got told no. However, this goes full circle because they are losing money to the same thing they don't want and they wont be able to stop it at this point. I will say it again, they are past the point of no return. All they can do is salvage. And no, its not hard to license series. They have chosen to not license them because they don't want to license it for digital distribution, not because its difficult. They just dont have the want but will be forced in the current rate. Okay, so how does taking down scanlation-aggregation solve the problem? It is going to go that way. What do you think happened to Napster? This is exactly what happened to Napster, they are going after the sites the provide it easy, and then they will move down to trying to take out torrents and will find it an impossible task. Just ask the RIAA. Once they take out the current manga-aggregation sites, another wave of them will come, and if they take those out, torrent sites will appear. Trying to claim they are not similar is exactly why history repeats itself. Again, people dont buy it because its not available in the format they want. You cant publish a product and expect people to buy it when they don't want it that way. I am sure there are a lot of people out there who have stopped buying manga because they are sick of books. Taking the scanlation-aggregation sites will just mean they wont read manga anymore. Then no-one benefits. And actually, because of scanlations, it does mean something that a volume is even behind by 1 volume, hell even one chapter. People want to be able to read the latest chapter the minute it comes out, by any means. If the publishers don't want to bend over to this then piracy is going to happen, its just a fact of life in today's age. Honestly, a lot of your views have really good reason. If it wasn't for the fact that today's world is a bunch of self-rightous people who think they deserve everything, this wouldn't even be an issue. But from a business standpoint, its moving to Survival of the Fittest. Right now, the publishing companies aren't fit to survive unless they get their act together. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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HERESY! ANN's casts have tend to be less editorial- a nuimber of them have been very informative, industry insider interviews. The one with Meredith Mulrouney was very insightful, as were the ones with an ex-Geneon employee, and though I didn't get to listen to it yet, I have no doubt Tim Eldred's interview is interesting stuff. They also had a very cute interview with NIS America. They've been among the best features I've seen on ANN lately. Not bothering to look into accurate, informative resources is lazy and lame 
There were no scanlations of either series beforehand btw- all the scans out tehre were scans of Vertical's series.
I was explaining things out a bit more for Noobie, who misinterpeted my suggestion to go to tyhe library for free reading as me telling him to spend money on books and give them to the library when he runs out of room [though actually, that's something lots of people do, and is sort of a nice thing] Last edited by Paploo on Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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OLady
Posts: 163 Location: Texas |
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Noobie, you are not debating, you are ranting. You have not offered any alternatives, only negative opinions and insults.
Do something constructive. Propose another idea. There are very intelligent and logical people on our forums. These minds, while not involved directly in the anti-piracy actions, may see a solution not recognized elsewhere. It may provide the spark that leads to a better solution. Any solution will be a massive undertaking. This is the sort of thing computers do best. Applying the methodologies of systems engineering and following through with proper programming is not "pink unicorns". Yes, the scanlators spend money putting out their eoisodes. They will not want to pay a fee on top of that. This is part of the idea. Pay the fee or suffer legal repercussions will persuade at least some scanlators to cease and desist. We must work with the current situation. I think I'll invite a few of the more knowledgeable and intelligent minds to think about this, too. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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That'd be an interesting idea..... I imagine some artists could look into that as an alternative to sometyhing like OpenManga. Not sure if it'd work logistically, but I imagine companies are looking at all ideas out there, sorting through which ones work best, what series might be good to test it with and going with that. BTW--- That's sort of what was done with the MangaNovel site, wherein they sold digital ed's of assorted manga titles [it was run in part by a major japanese pub btw, the publishers of Hana to Yume whose name escapes me at the moment]. Each digital ed. had assorted fan submitted translations, with the fans getting a small part of the fee paid for the translation if their translation was purchased. MangaNovel was ignored tho and closed after a year, probably because they had too much competitoon from free sites. Noobie--- you lost me at the Unicorns stuff. Ed Chavez is an industry insider btw who works for Vertical and has access to all kinds of info we never will, if that's what you were referring to with the FoxNews stuff. And yeah, people are horrible. Doesn't mean I shouldn't call them out on their shit though. I've been making comics for 10 years now, and I know lots of people who make comics, and frankly, we're more then entitled to call people on that stuff. ps--- and before you get all "you just don't understand the digital revolution!" at me, webcomics have been a major chunk of that 10 years of comicking. So yeah, don't try that on me. |
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enurtsol
Posts: 14795 |
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That may be what this whole thing may be headed to. Publishers would go out of business and stop publishing; readers would just stop reading; there would be nothing to read; and everybody would just leave fandom and the industry. Then sometime in the future, someone would try publishing again; some people would actually try buying again; there'd be something to read again; and the whole cycle starts all over. |
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noobiesnack
Posts: 34 |
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@enurtsol: I dont see it completely going away. I suspect we will see a bigger null than we do now and it will be like that for a few years. People will eventually become tired of waiting and give up hope of seeing what they want. The suddenly, some new publication company will come along and kick-start the industry back up. But there is still another way to stop it from happening if they just save themselves the trouble of making everyone wait. It is just no publisher wants to do it right now, and it doesn't look like they want to change their reasoning. Time will change people. I am just trying to speed it up by throwing out the idea and shoot down problems with ideas. Call it ranting, trolling, or whatever. At least I am trying to save the industry from going through such a phase by not sitting idly by as many people have been. If you have a suggestion that is REASONABLE to solve this issue, that isnt 'people need to learn this and this', then please say so or message me.
Right now, I have played out multiple scenarios happening, and every single one of them have a flaw. I am trying to find a suitable one that makes sense to do, and is not just something made up on the spot. The current scenario of taking out scanlation-aggregation, shows the most flaws and Highly suggest a change. But I am only one person, I can't change the minds of the publishers myself. @Paploo: Yes, I know web comics are popular, especially some of the English made ones that people put out on their own sites. However, a big difference in that matter is the web comics are free in many cases. The one's that are not free, have never been free. But because it is online and there is a place to get it from, people go to them to get it. Now, before you claim 'why dont they just switch over to a paid online service completely and not do a free service' there is a huge problem with that. Publishers allowed scanlations to become rampant. Stopping them now is impossible. Its like trying to stop Hitler, except there are half a million of them or more. Also, that comparison to FoxNews was because a lot of the stuff they throw around is just statistical data they use to get ratings. It may be accurate, but most of the time it means nothing when you look at the big picture. And the unicorn stuff was meant as a joke, because there are a lot of people who seem to think the world around them is what its not. Its a natural human instinct that people need to break out of if they don't want to see things happen over and over again. Also, on that information you provided, there is a problem with it. Again, you cannot solely base that occasion because of a major factor that effects businesses: The Economy. You can't run statistics on the sales of something when the economy is in a bad shape. Say this was done 5-10 years ago, it would be more believable. But there are just far too many factors that destroy the accuracy of the data. You can guarantee that scanlations do affect the sales of manga. However, you cannot prove how much. Don't come at me with something that is impossible to prove realistically. You may have good intentions, but statistical data like that is to flimsy to stay afloat on its own. About the best proof you can come up with is to find out when a certain series started getting scanlated, and then look at the sales immediately after it and compare it across ALL series and then take in account the economy situation for the ones from 2008-2010. Give me those numbers, and I will be happy to accept the numbers. Also, while I do like the idea of going to the library, that does not mean everyone does. Personally, I don't like reading something from a library only to be told they don't have the next volume in circulation anywhere. It is a huge disappointment when something like that happens. Even more disappointing when you hear that same manga is on vol 20 in japan and has not seen a US release in 2 years. |
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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First they noticed the drop, then they investigated, then they discovered that it happened after the manga hit a popular manga viewing site, then they started "negotiating" to get the title take down, then there was a partial recovery of the sales. The correlation is stated directly in the account, so either Vertical Ed was lying, or there is a correlation. As far as "what about the dozens of others versions that existed before hand" ... there's no way to observed the change in sales due to already existing scanlations, and if there was scanlation groups that picked it up after Vertical Ed did, it evidently did not make a big dent in sales (which does not prove but is consistent with my argument that direct torrent downloads are not the primary market impact). What they could observe is the impact on sales once it hit one of the big manga viewer sites, Because something hit sales hard, and when they investigated, the decline in sales followed directly after the appearance on the site. |
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