Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: 86
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18225 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Since the episode review has gone up, you probably didn't need spoiler tags on anything but the last point.
Wouldn't rule it out as the intent, but the series has generally engaged more in "in the moment" symbolism than foreshadowing symbolism, so if any meaning is intended there then it's probably something else. (Significantly, episode 3 also showed a feature in the closer's visuals turned red, while episodes 5 and 6 featured a detail turned blue. Not sure what, if anything, that's supposed to mean.) As for the rest, I had most of the other observations you mentioned, but as Callum suggested in his review, the fireworks scenes are loaded with even more interpretations than that. For instance, it certainly wasn't a coincidence that shots of the expended fireworks were juxtaposed with shots of Spearhead Squadron after the battle, or that Kurena's sparkler went out at the exact moment she brings up her own expected death. And did you notice that Kurena was specifically looking at Shin talking to Lena on the Para-RAID when she wondered to herself who would carry Shin's heart? More a neat transition than a symbolic meaning: the bow on Lena's uncle's bottle turning into the bow on her dress as the scenes switched from office to party. I also have to wonder if meaning is intended by the rotating selection of flowers (or lack thereof) in the vase in Lena's room. Sadly, I don't know my flowers well enough to take a crack at that one. |
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saber721
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I just went back through each episode and I think the flowers may be Lena's way of mourning the subordinates who have died under her command. Every time someone dies, she places new flowers in the vase, and if no one has died in some time, the vase remains empty. That would explain why Lena salutes the vase whenever there are flowers in it. Episode 1: Vase is shown with white lilies in it at 1:30, later scene at 13:30 shows four members of Lena's squad have been killed. Same scene also shows seven more members of her squad die in the mission, New white lilies shown in vase at 14:45. Episode 2: Episode starts with same scene of vase shown at 14:45 in episode 1. Vase is later shown at 17:30 empty. No members of Spearhead die in this episode. Episode 3: Vase is shown at 14:10 still empty. Kaie dies at the end of this episode. Episode 4: Vase is shown with a single white Lily in it at 6:17. Episode 5: Vase is shown at 12:55 empty. No members of Spearhead die in this episode. Episode 6: Vase is shown at 17:10 with two varieties of flowers in it (I'm not a flower expert so I don't know what they are), after both Daiya and Lecca die. (Two other members of Spearhead have died before this point, as shown in the flower field scene in the OP. Unfortunately the vase is not shown until after Daiya and Lecca die, so it is unknown if the vase had flowers in it prior to this.) This episode also marks the first time Lena's box with all the caricatures of the dead members of Spearhead in it is shown. Episode 7: Three more members of Spearhead presumably die during the mission where Kurena tells Lena she shouldn't resonate if she can't handle the Legion's voices afterward, as there are only 8 people shown in the flower field in the OP but there are 11 members dead as shown at 4:00. The same scene also shows Lena returning home with a bouquet of three different flower varieties. The vase is later shown at 6:05 with those flowers in it. Of note is that before episode six, Lena only uses White Lilies in the vase whenever someone dies. (At first I thought the number of flowers in the vase could be for the number of people who have died but the numbers in episode 1 don't add up unfortunately) Starting in episode 6, she uses a number of different number of varieties of flowers in the vase. Two varieties after Daiya and Lecca die in episode 6 and three varieties in episode 7 after three more members die. This I think is symbolic of Lena truly seeing the 86 as individual people after resolving to learn each member of Spearhead's name in episode 4. Quite a long post about the symbolism of a single vase isn't it? |
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Electric Wooloo
Posts: 311 |
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Pretty good episode, though much of it felt like the setup to the climax. I'm glad we're getting some more insight on Alban's train of thought besides just Lena now and spoiler[I had suspected that Annette's apathy was from a place of pain in the past. A defense mechanism to stop her thinking about things.]
That last conversation between Shin and Lena felt a bit off in the Crunchyroll Translation though. It was translated as spoiler[Shin telling Lena "Go East after the Shepherd dies to try to get find help" like he was telling her to get out of the country, but it makes more sense in context if it was supposed to be "We might find help in the East after we kill the Shepherd, we'll survive until then so don't worry."] Regardless, I still have a few unanswered questions but this series has been answering them well so far so I'm confident they'll keep being answered. Looking forward to next week. |
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Yttrbio
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Not sure about the translation issue. The subject is pretty ambiguous from the language used, and that may be intentional. He does pretty clearly tell her to survive until then. Given the appearance of the artillery, Shin is probably convinced that the Republic is doomed one way or another, so telling her to escape also makes sense.
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Gingi7890
Posts: 10 |
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I liked the episode - it felt like a good set up for next week. It feels kind of sad seeing both group shots in the opener, though.
A few things: spoiler[I dunno if they were trying to make Annette come off as excessively cruel, but if so, it will make some of the character actions seem pretty strange later - though we'd only see those (because they're in Book 4 onward) if the show gets a second season.] spoiler[I liked how they showed the members of spearhead getting ready for their final mission. It's barely mentioned in the book - there's about a paragraph dedicated to it, and you don't see it from their perspective. So it's pretty cool to see the personal marks drawn again, and everything cleaned - it enhances the perception that for who's left, it's an exciting thing. Oh, and Haruto dies two days prior to the reconassaince mission - that part is mentioned in the books. (sorry about the spelling  ) ]
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MFrontier
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spoiler[I also liked that scene where Lev takes his sunglasses off to say goodbye to Spearhead, but it's so distant that you can't see his eye color to build up to the reveal that he's Alban when Lena meets him.] |
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Electric Wooloo
Posts: 311 |
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spoiler[Annette came on strong this episode, and I know a lot of other watchers have disparaged her for it, but even with those outbursts I understand her position and feel pretty sorry for her. Knowing now that she wasn't so aggressive in the novel makes me wonder why they changed it. As for the last mission being an exciting thing for Spearhead, I still don't fully understand that mindset. They come across as too... accepting? I guess is the word for it. Marching towards death with a smile on their face, not willing to resist because they don't want to "fall to the Alban's level?" At this point I don't think it's stooping to someone's level, it's fighting back against factual genocide. Apparently the next volumes focus more on the 86, so hopefully that will give more insight into their train of thought because right now I don't completely buy it. If Shin knows that there might be help past the Eastern border hopefully they'll try to escape after killing the Shepherd and not just fight until they die.] |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18225 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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NOTE: The spoilers below are all about episode 8, so if you've seen the episode then there are no spoilers for you.
I didn't see anything being out of character here. Her frustration with Lena has been building all series so far, as Lena hasn't been heeding her warnings. Also, I had the impression that she's jaded because she has not been able to maintain her innocent optimism (like Lena has) and has some deep, deep regrets. And to address Electic Wooloo's point on this: the wording isn't any less harsh in the novel. The scene just has more impact here because of the visuals being added.
Think you're misunderstanding what's going on there. The whole "fall to the Alba's level" attitude isn't about not resisting; it's about not actively going for revenge. Even though they're most likely going to their deaths, this mission is still freedom for them. Once they set out, they're no longer beholden to the Republic. For the first time in ten years, they're leaving their oppressors behind and controlling their own fate, so they're going to go as far as they can. Maybe they'll find freedom, but if they die in the process then it's all on them, rather than them being maneuvered into it by the Alba. Besides, if they're going to die anyway, why not take a chance? As for your comments about future volumes, we'll see. The adaptation is going to have to chance at least some about how the end of this novel and the next two novels play out, so I am very curious to see how the production team handles things once the adaptation of the second novel starts. |
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Gingi7890
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spoiler[True - the tension with Annette has been building since really episode 1 - it's just that the facial animations made it seem to me less like someone who's done things they regret (which is how it comes across in the novel) and more like someone bordering on a Shou Tucker type "I did something terrible and I'm justifying to myself why I think it was ok." I think that's going to make her decision in the next episode and in the second cour (regarding Lena's para raid and working with her) seem more jarring is all. For me, I guess, it turned an argument in the novel that, while intense, didn't make Annette seem crazy to one where it seemed like she went a little crazy because of the experiments. That's not to say that it won't set up a redemptive path for her, just that it seems like it will take more legwork to do so.] |
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Gina Szanboti
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I thought there were only five of them still alive? |
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saber721
Posts: 38 |
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I agree that Annettes facial animations aren't really right in this episode. The animators seem to have been going for "I've done terrible things but you're just as guilty as me" sort of vibe but I think that went at it too strongly. I believe it would have worked better if Annette was trying to pull the same face, trying to be the evil person, but barely, just barely failing to keep her regret from coming to the surface.
The scene with Lena's argument with her uncle fairs even worse I think. There was a lot of material cut out of the argument from the LN that really helps show Karlstahl's empty, despondent resignation about eveything in the Republic. I think they could have shown this in the scene, shown in Karlstahl's body language a man who's just given up, who's tired of it all. Instead we just get a wide shot of him standing in the shadows while Lena stands in the light next to the statue of Saint Magnolia. Sure, I guess it gets the point across in the symbolism, but it could have been shown better. Moving on from that, some more nice symbolism from this episode I noticed: -At 9:32, as Lena is walking away from Annette's house. The fence of the house next to Annette's (the one that had the 86 family) is the only one shown on the entire street that isn't white. -9:43, the vase is shown again, this time with four flowers varieties in it to start, (For the four that died to the new Artillery type) before two new varieties, then a third replace them. (So two more likely die in another mission, followed by another one likely in the next one.) -At 12:41, the whole scene where the street and cars are reflected in Lena's window as she's telling Shin to run away. I believe this is symbolic of the Republic and the 86. The two white (or silver maybe) cars that pass by represent the Republic citizen's, moving freely but ultimately trapped within the walls. (Represented by the crosswalk) The stationary Black car represents the 86 (and probably Shin in particular) trapped outside of the wall with it to their backs and the unknown of the Legion territories to their front but ultimately choosing to move forward of their own will. LN 7 spoilers: spoiler[Anyone notice how Rei is reaching out as he's dying in the after credits scene? That's a nice touch that lines up with how Zelene mentions in LN 7 that Legion "who have, even in their final moments, extended their hands in maddened despair" possess the ability to create arms and hands out of their Liquid Nano-machine central processor's. Which would explain why Rei has that ability as a Sheppard. ] |
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Covnam
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The "go to the east" bit was odd. Is Shin saying this, presuming they'll lose, soon followed by the rest and that the Republic will soon be next, so it's time to "get out of Dodge"?
Annette's neighbors were described as two brothers with an age gap and the drawings we see then and at Shin's house w/ his brother seem to imply that they were her neighbors. If she's aware of who the Reaper is, that could be agitating her even more.
That's how I saw it as well. Lena is doing what she could not and unlike her, keeps trying to go in that direction even when faced with opposition. |
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MFrontier
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Basically Shin was trying to give her a way to escape the Republic because, regardless of what happens to Spearhead, the Republic is likely going to lose and get invaded by the Legion and that's Lena's best chance at surviving. |
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Calsolum
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Damn I haven't felt like punching someone as much as I have Lena's uncle and Annette in this episode.
On the issue of the 'evil-looking face', I agree that it wasn't needed, It'd have been far more powerful if they had their normal faces showing that they don't see what they were doing as evil at all but instead cut to Lena reaction realizing that her friends and family in the republic are truly broken. I imagine the reason for this is for the animators to tell the viewers that these people are evilTM which normally I'd be offended that they think viewers are that stupid but I've played Genshin Impact and the 'cancel' Eula thing on Twitter really had me shaking my head. As hopeful and optimistic as spearhead squad is I really can't stomach Republic and the way they do things. I'm not a religious person but these events make me think that 'God' had the right idea in having Noah save a small minority who were 'good' and then drown everyone else. Have Lena escape and the legion be the murder flood that drowns the shitty empire. But that's all me being dramatic, back to 86, that epilogue scene was rough. I'm guessing that shin doesn't know how his brother really felt after that incident. I think he talked about his brother to Lena he referred to his kindness in the past tense, at first I figured it was cause he was dead but perhaps it was because of that event he thought his brother truly hated him. As for why I'm guessing it's cause shin and his mom had a special power or his mom tried to hide his power. Whatever the case Mecha-Onichan is coming and hopefully, Shin will get the closure that he deserves. |
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dandon223
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If all you got from this episode is only that those two are evilTM then I think we did not watch the same ep. I think more of them as kinda sympathetic and just a product of an envirenment, not evilTM. |
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