Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13227 |
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I'd disagree about the "carefully planned and set up over the course of the entire series" part. The anime followed the manga pretty faithfully until the War in the North and only then did things diverge to set up the anime original ending. It's not so much that they caught up with the manga, I'm guessing it's because they didn't get approved for a second season. How the manga ended that arc is a decent stopping point in its own right, but they wanted the story to have an actual conclusion.
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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I think Key is right concerning Claymore. Whether the anime follows the Manga is irrelevant. That the manga continues the story beyond the events at Pieta is also irrelevant. What matters is whether the anime tells a satisfying, self-contained story. I believe it does.
If one were to see the anime as the tale of Clare's development as a warrior then one may expect it to end in a blaze of heroic glory where she overcomes the odds and defeats Priscilla. To me that would be a dull and arguably formulaic story. Far more interesting, to me, is story of Clare's redemption as a human being. As Key points out, the anime doesn't have a tacked on ending. Rather, all the way through the anime has prepared us for her ultimate decision. The spoiler[battle with Priscilla] isn't to provide her the opportunity to show us how much of a monstrous warrior she is, but, rather, to test her human qualities to breaking point. That she chooses to be human is the pinnacle of her growth in the series. Clare's rejection of revenge may fall flat in terms of adrenaline-fueled action but I found it very moving in human terms. I also thought it was a great and appropriate way to end the series. If Claymore (the anime) has a fault is that the two themes (rejection of revenge v development as a monstrously powerful fighter) tend to work against each other. I'm glad that the more interesting, more adult theme won out in the end. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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I think you meant to say "I don't mean JUST about the bitter, cranky, bastard part."  After thinking about other shows with more.....abrupt endings I will say this one was still better than many others. Venus Versus Virus anyone? Or how about Shikabane Hime. So Claymore's, while abrupt, still was better than many others I grant you that. Plus at least with Claymore I had the manga to turn to which helped subside my cranky seadog rage down to simple old grumpy mumbling.
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getchman
 Space CowboyPosts: 9120 Location: Bedford, NH |
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Guess it's time I stop being lazy
Group A-1 Aido Hanabusa, Vampire Knight vs. Ayaka Steiger, Kurau Pahntom Memory I've only seen Vampire Knight, but it bored the crap out of me so I didn't watch the second season. didn't really like Aido and didn't notice any development, so I'll go with Ayaka Steiger Group A-2 Bart Garsus, Vandread vs. Chi, Chobits I liked Bart from episode 1 and the cause of his improved development was pretty heartwarming, which made me like him more. My vote goes to Bart Garsus Group A-3 Ayato Naoi, Angel Beats! vs. Eureka, Eureka 7 Eureka had more time to develop than Naoi did. my vote goes to Eureka Group A-4 Gaara, Naruto franchise vs. Gauche, Gauche the Cellist I've only seen Naruto and Gaara definitely does though a of positive development. My vote goes to Gaara Group A-5 Haruka Suzumiya, Rumbling Hearts vs. Haruko Kamio, Air Haruko goes through a lot to finally be a good mom. She gets my vote Group A-6 Inuyasha, Inuyasha franchise vs. Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho I haven't seen much of either shows, but from what I have seen, Hiei seems to have improved more, so he gets my vote Group A-7 Jean Valjean, Les Miserables Shoujo Cosette vs. Haruyuki Arita, Accel World I've only seen Accel World, and even though he annoys me with his whiny behavior for half his screen time, my vote goes to Haruyuki Group A-8 Clare, Claymore vs. Erio Touwa, Ground Control to Psychoelectic Girl[/quote] my vote goes to Clare, cause her life sucks and she lives in a crapsack word, but she changes for the better due to Raki. |
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victor viper
 Posts: 630 Location: The deep south |
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Group A-1
Aido Hanabusa, Vampire Knight vs. Ayaka Steiger, Kurau Pahntom Memory Ayaka Steiger, solely on the basis of the descriptions. Group A-2 Bart Garsus, Vandread vs. Chi, Chobits Chi. Group A-3 Ayato Naoi, Angel Beats! vs. Eureka, Eureka 7 Eureka. Group A-4 Gaara, Naruto franchise vs. Gauche, Gauche the Cellist Gauche. Group A-5 Haruka Suzumiya, Rumbling Hearts vs. Haruko Kamio, Air Since I nominated her, I have to go with Haruka Suzumiya. I couldn't vote for Haruko because she deeply cares for Misuzu right from the start, her immaturity aside. On the other hand, Haruka overcomes incredible adversity, and I believe that her growth comes more from within. Group A-6 Inuyasha, Inuyasha franchise vs. Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho Inuyasha. Why not. Group A-7 Jean Valjean, Les Miserables Shoujo Cosette vs. Haruyuki Arita, Accel World Jean Valjean. Group A-8 Clare, Claymore vs. Erio Touwa, Ground Control to Psychoelectic Girl Erio Touwa. It's hard to deny that Clare undergoes a tremendous transformation in the direst of situations, but I'm going with Erio. You could almost make the argument that she's the moe anthropomorphization of the hikkomori lifestyle. With a little prodding she manages to rejoin the human race. She's not exactly high-functioning, but it's good enough for me. |
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Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
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Group A-1
Aido Hanabusa, Vampire Knight vs. Ayaka Steiger, Kurau Pahntom Memory Ayaka Steiger. The write-up and talk about her in the nomination thread makes her an easy one to vote for. Group A-2 Bart Garsus, Vandread vs. Chi, Chobits I'm not feeling strongly about either one. I've only seen the first four episodes of Vandread, and I've only read the manga of Chobits. Left this one up to a coin toss, so it's Bart Garsus. Group A-3 Ayato Naoi, Angel Beats! vs. Eureka, Eureka 7 Arguments on here convinced me to vote with Eureka. Group A-4 Gaara, Naruto franchise vs. Gauche, Gauche the Cellist Gaara. Group A-5 Haruka Suzumiya, Rumbling Hearts vs. Haruko Kamio, Air Having not seen either series, I'm relying upon the arguments. I think good arguments have been given from both sides, so this one's a toughie. For now, I'm voting for Haruka Suzumiya, but this one is subject to change. Group A-6 Inuyasha, Inuyasha franchise vs. Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho Hiei. Group A-7 Jean Valjean, Les Miserables Shoujo Cosette vs. Haruyuki Arita, Accel World Jean Valjean. Another toughie, since I can sympathize with the development that Haruyuki goes through. Group A-8 Clare, Claymore vs. Erio Touwa, Ground Control to Psychoelectic Girl Clare. |
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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Group A-1
Aido Hanabusa, Vampire Knight vs. Ayaka Steiger, Kurau Pahntom Memory My vote goes to: Ayaka Steiger. Group A-2 Bart Garsus, Vandread vs. Chi, Chobits My vote goes to: Chi. Group A-3 Ayato Naoi, Angel Beats! vs. Eureka, Eureka 7 My vote goes to: Eureka. Group A-4 Gaara, Naruto franchise vs. Gauche, Gauche the Cellist My vote goes to: Gaara. Group A-5 Haruka Suzumiya, Rumbling Hearts vs. Haruko Kamio, Air My vote goes to: Haruko Kamio. Group A-6 Inuyasha, Inuyasha franchise vs. Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho In the beginning, Hiei is the prototypical lone wolf badass type who helps Team Urameshi because it coincides with his goal. Later in the series, after learning his tragic past, you can see why he prefers the lone wolf route. Unbeknownst to him, he unconsciously WANTS to be part of Team Urameshi. Being with the team has changed him in a good way even if he does not notice it himself. My vote goes to: Hiei. Group A-7 Jean Valjean, Les Miserables Shoujo Cosette vs. Haruyuki Arita, Accel World My vote goes to: Haruyuki Arita. Group A-8 Clare, Claymore vs. Erio Touwa, Ground Control to Psychoelectic Girl My vote goes to: Clare. |
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Spastic Minnow
Bargain Hunter Exempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4609 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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I'm not sure if this would influence anyone's thinking about voting for Gauche over Gaara, but it's not mentioned in the write up. Gauche, The Cellist isn't just some modern fairy tale with talking animals, the story has serious pedigree to go behind it. Takahata's critically acclaimed version is the fourth adaptation to be made. The first animated version was in 1949, there was another in '63 and a puppet version in '53. Why so many versions? This is a Kenji "Night of the Galactic Railroad" Miyazawa story. There are reasons every Japanese student studies his works. I just watched it this week (My new avatar is from the film), and though I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, I did confirm my suspicion that it is a self-improvement story in its very essence, cleverly told with those gleams of future Ghibli magic, in just barely over 60 minutes.
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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I think pedigree has little to do with it. Even the best creators can put out so-so works. I don't think anyone would say "He improves more because some one famous worked on this!"
Anyways, I'm sure not changing my vote, especially to a character from a movie I didn't even know existed until now. Besides, looking at the write ups Gauche goes from a bad cello player to a good cello player. Sure, that's nice, but it's nothing compared to going from a hateful loner to the leader of an army of ninjas who was able to make former enemies put aside their differences and follow him into battle. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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And Gaara is a generic character. The bad guy or the guy from the opposing team/organization etc. who joins the good guys. (e.g. Christopher Armalite from Scrapped Princess, Accelerator from Toaru Majutsu no Index) I didn't find Gaara to be the most remarkable representative of characters who go over to the other camp. Besides, is Gaara's improvement really so convincing? If it were a series of events that made him reflect on his life and change, I might have bought it. But he is just another character for whom merely meeting and being spoken to by the main hero is a life changing event. And since it is enough to turn his attitude around 180 degrees, I don't find it convincing. Last edited by Aylinn on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Spastic Minnow
Bargain Hunter Exempt from Grammar Rules Posts: 4609 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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I won't argue against Gaara so strongly, he's a fine choice. But there certainly is a difference in the type of change the characters go through. Gaara's change is sort of quantitative, and the title of the tournament supports him, he does change a greater degree, from super-evil enemy to super-cool badass ally. But it also true that it is a typical change of the sort. But there is no doubt to me that Gauche's tale of improvement is a better one that is more applicable to an actual person without super ninja powers. Yes, he basically just learns how to play the Cello better, but it is also very much a life-changing event. by the end he is showing more maturity and a bit more patience and even getting the eye from the pretty young orchestra member. So there is a question of whether you strictly want to go with MOST improved character, because Gaara certainly chages more drastically, or if you'd rather go with the BETTER TOLD tale of improvement |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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Have you actually seen the Gaara vs. Naruto fight? You make it sound like all Naruto did was say some things and Gaara saw the light. That completely disregards just how emotional and intense their battle was. Even if it's 'generic' doesn't mean it wasn't really well executed. Learning to play an instrument better is pretty 'generic' as well.
Well this is the most improved character tournament, after all. As for being better told, well, I can't comment since I haven't seen the movie in question. |
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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Yes, I have seen it. No, I am not convinced that one battle during which Naruto gives a clichéd speech should have been enough to turn Gaara into a goodie. As for how emotional and intense their battle is, I don't find it neither emotional nor intense, so I suppose it's a matter of opinion.
It is not well executed. There are characters who change drastically and are from series that are far better told. For example Eva Heinemann from Moster, who at the beginning is a loathsome person and becomes likeable at the end, but it takes a good chunk of the series, before it happens. And it's not like the main character, Tenma, made some clichéd speech that converted her into a goodie. Her change begins when he flat out refuses to be with her. Imagine what a blow it has to be to a spoiled and rich woman who has always got what she wanted up till that point. I'm not saying that Gaara is the worst contender, but, in my opinion, he is far from being the best and most plausible example of an improved character . How I missed these discussions. 
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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You're still simplifying it too much. Naruto's 'cliched speech' worked on Gaara because Naruto and Gaara were the same. Naruto understood Gaara's pain because he experienced it himself. But Naruto didn't turn out like Gaara because he had some one like Iruka who believed in him. Naruto basically became that person for Gaara and made him see he could have a better life. |
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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I think the show is oversimplifying how much influence people have on each other. While I agree that meeting someone who understand us and believe in us may be a turning point in life that will bring a significant change, I find it too idealistic and implausible that such a person should be able to turn someone's attitude around 180 degrees after one conversation. |
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I'm still fully convinced that the end of the series (i.e., the resolution after the final battle effectively ended, which is what's most relevant to this tournament) was carefully planned and set up over the course of the entire series, rather than just being a haphazard quickie wrap-up, and the signs of that are evident throughout if one looks for them.* (And the true climactic scene does have a strong parallel in the manga.) However, I must agree that the final battle is, well, lame. It finally succumbed to the shonen powermongering that the series had been flirting with throughout its entire run and made some questionable decisions as a result.
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