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Cryten wrote:

I will admit to having watched the first season, loved it, not seen the movies and going: Problematic? Why? I loved the show and while the characters are very young in a very cruel world including human experimentation on children that felt like the point of the whole experience. From the 2nd episode onwards there was always a sense of all the more grown up characters saying goodbye and morning the main twos suicidal quest to go deeper while being unable to stop it.

And with that emotional attachment to the show, difficult though it is wondering why it was called problematic and a little hurt at the word. So I certainly sympathise with peoples concerns with the word despite not listening.

Grown ups for the most part F the F'ed up in MiA - highly recommend you see the 3rd movie.
(MiA is at the Cronenberg level of a body horror story.)

But as to your "why?"
Perhaps certain fetishistic scenes are a impediment -problematic- for folks to make a wholehearted recommendation of MiA.
The 3rd movie ,if a bit sanitized, adapts those scenes.

This up coming T.V season covers a story arc where MiA's fetish scenes are even more prevalent.

(I'll flesh out a scene I hinted at in an earlier comment)

Spoiler

spoiler[Riko sitting on a toilet going #2 - toilet is really a creature.
This creature proceeds to lick Riko's rear clean, Riko is shown to enjoy the licking process.]

I don't think it's a huge deal to dislike the title (although, I guess I don't accept that 'it should have been chosen to avoid upsetting people' is a good critique of it), but it seems ridiculous to reject the entire aftershow on that basis, and to consume the Talkback thread entirely about it. It's an hour-and-20-minute video and like a full forty minutes of it was about Made In Abyss; surely there's more worthwhile to be said about their discussion than this.

Nordhmmer wrote:

Spoiler

spoiler[Riko sitting on a toilet going #2 - toilet is really a creature.
This creature proceeds to lick Riko's rear clean, Riko is shown to enjoy the licking process.]

This is why I LOVE this author. He has a quirky style like no other that really knows how to draw one in, showcasing its world's various eccentricities. Like the one time spoiler[Riko smells Faputa's butthole and declares how it "smells like the sun and baked sweet potatoes"].

Can't wait for the new season. Looking at the pace the author is going season 2 will probably reach the end of available material so it'll be a loong wait for season 3. And we're still almost half-way from the bottom, if the charts from the source material are to be believed...

lol. lmao.

You are not oppressed because you like an anime which is wildly popular and which the title of the podcast you're complaining about describes as a 'masterpiece'.

ATastySub wrote:

The idea that Lynzee refusing to cave to this truly inane pearl clutching over criticism of one of the most obvious examples of a problematic favorite is somehow empowering racism might be the most ridiculous thing posted yet in this thread. Which is impressive considering the runner-up might be the first half of this post complaining about being called a weirdo as if it’s some kind of slur. The lengths you’re going to and appropriating other language while doing so only proves you have no idea what problematic means and are acting like a giant weirdo about it.

I don't care if I am being a "weirdo". I like being weird, kid. But it is true about language changing. The word "lame" used to be a slur against cripped and the physically disabled. Now it's a harmless children's word. I've seen your replies in multiple forms. I shouldn't ve replying to you as your opinions are.... um.... something. Either way, I know racism and slurs as I am a dark skinned minority. Most people who do the "calling out problematic" are racists and doxxers. Others have said so.

It's okay to disagree with me. But I still stand by what I said in how she doesn't have to listen you or me. She has the higher up hand because she runs this site. She can ignore that many people don't think it's right to use "problematic" as those who do use it are often terrible people.

LOL. LMAO.

I'm sorry, but I've literally been doxxed due to my reporting here. And it wasn't by people who use the word "problematic." I don't know what kind of fantasy world you live in (except I do, because you've more than once shared debunked information about our staff here) but it isn't people who say "problematic" that doxx people. If you're alluding to crappy Tumblr users who chase people off the internet, that's a completely different group than people who think "toilet monsters licking little girls buttholes might cause some concern."

So congrats for pushing that button. Pictures of my house and my kids sit on the same website utilized by the Christchurch shooter. Get some perspective.

capt_bunny wrote:

I don't care if I am being a "weirdo". I like being weird, kid. But it is true about language changing. The word "lame" used to be a slur against cripped and the physically disabled. Now it's a harmless children's word.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. I have several friends that have mobility issues, and it recently came up that the word "lame" actually does bother them. So, so much for that being a so-called harmless children's word.

ATastySub wrote:

The idea that Lynzee refusing to cave to this truly inane pearl clutching

i decided to go back and look through the comments again, maybe I was looking at this the wrong way, and there are only two comments before Lynzees first comment that talk about the title directly. Only one of which could be considered offended, and after her first comment some people who bring up the title are even defending its use before she snaps over what is basically a small disagreement, and starts accusing people of pearl clutching and calling them triggered.

In a way I sort of find it funny, if not for the fact this is from a member of staff. You would think they would either leave it be or give a measured response and leave it at that, but no they escalate it and get abusive. I've worked in retail before, where you have to be civil regardless of how the customer acts, I would have loved to have been able to not reply to some of them. And if I had said "stop clutching your pearls just because we don't have any Christmas cards to grandma left" I likely would have been fired on the spot

MarshalBanana wrote:

In a way I sort of find it funny, if not for the fact this is from a member of staff. You would think they would either leave it be or give a measured response and leave it at that, but no they escalate it and get abusive. I've worked in retail before, where you have to be civil regardless of how the customer acts, I would have loved to have been able to not reply to some of them. And if I had said "stop clutching your pearls just because we don't have any Christmas cards to grandma left" I likely would have been fired on the spot

Your concern trolling is exasperating enough, but calling anything Lynzee has said in this thread as "abuse" is just plain ridiculous. Confrontational? Sure, especially after several posts of people acting like a pretty neutral word that's been part of online lexicon for over a decade is somehow an attack on them. And especially after somebody fired off the assertion that "problematic" is some kind of dogwhistle for online harassment or racism. But let's not pretend that you actually think somebody being, at most, mildly dismissive to you, is worthy of being called abuse.

Cryten wrote:

I will admit to having watched the first season, loved it, not seen the movies and going: Problematic? Why? I loved the show and while the characters are very young in a very cruel world including human experimentation on children that felt like the point of the whole experience. From the 2nd episode onwards there was always a sense of all the more grown up characters saying goodbye and morning the main twos suicidal quest to go deeper while being unable to stop it.

Every anime is "problematic" by default simply by nature of it being from another culture with different views on things like sex, race, religion, culture, and other beliefs. And people tend to view their own views and beliefs as the inherently correct ones so any that deviate from those are going to be seen as faulty. The fact an animated work aimed at adults that deals with serious topics alone would be seen as problematic by the average American who views animation as strictly for children. In that regard, I think problematic is a nice label for anime to have. It's a sign that the medium is doing something right to stand out from the rest of the crowd and upsets the status quo.

Wow, what a minefield of emotional reactivity this comment section has become...

In the context it's allegedly most often interpreted in, I don't like "problematic" as much as anyone else does. But I know that the word isn't so inherently negative. It doesn't so much mean "bad" as it does "complicated". And that's what Made in Abyss is. Complicated. Complicated in its subject matter, and complicated in how fans of the show, either because, in spite of, or merely acknowledging of said subject matter, try to go about recommending the show to those who would take offense to it. Looking at it that way, "problematic" is a perfectly fine adjective to use for the article title. It's not the best - personally I'd have gone with "controversial" - but it's by no means inaccurate.

That said, I wouldn't actively recommend it to others. I'd just let them discover it for themselves, like my uncle did when MiA aired on Toonami earlier this year.

lossthief wrote:

Your concern trolling is exasperating enough, but calling anything Lynzee has said in this thread as "abuse" is just plain ridiculous. Confrontational? Sure, especially after several posts of people acting like a pretty neutral word that's been part of online lexicon for over a decade is somehow an attack on them.

Alright then, it's not abusive it's confrontational. It's still unprofessional. would it really have been an impossible task for Lynzee to just not engage with the comment section if she was unable to deal with it. I have no idea what concern trolling is, what i can say is it's not concern, it's a criticism and it's not trolling as I'm being honest.

If the word is neutral, well this is the first time in my entire life I've seen it as such. To be fair I feel it was used in a neutral sense in the podcast, however I only know the word as a lazy form of criticism simply because that's how I've seen people use it. It's as simple as that, I see no issue with me not liking the word. They are technically free to use the word, but if Lynzee can't handle pushback, then maybe don't use it.

Takkun4343 wrote:

In the context it's allegedly most often interpreted in, I don't like "problematic" as much as anyone else does. But I know that the word isn't so inherently negative. It doesn't so much mean "bad" as it does "complicated". And that's what Made in Abyss is. Complicated.

Based on the discussion in the aftershow, I feel like the meaning of "problematic" here is more narrowly something like: "sexually fetishizes the bodies of prepubescent children infrequently but with worrying consistency (and not in an attempt to make some kind of deeper point for which this choice is a necessary part of the work)". That part of Made In Abyss seems pretty unequivocally bad to me, despite that I love essentially everything else about it.

I'm handling the pushback just fine thanks. I'm just not rolling over and taking it when it's unwarranted and not based in reality. That's your actual issue. That I'm not entertaining things like "problematic is doxxer language" or "you shouldn't use this word because it hurts my feelings" and "you telling me I'm being ridiculous is unprofessional and you shouldn't comment at all."

If you guys want a start to feedback thread about how "problematic should be banned from ANN (but also I'm pro free speech)" do that. But this line of discussion is done.

livin_large wrote:

Every anime is "problematic" by default simply by nature of it being from another culture with different views on things like sex, race, religion, culture, and other beliefs. And people tend to view their own views and beliefs as the inherently correct ones so any that deviate from those are going to be seen as faulty. The fact an animated work aimed at adults that deals with serious topics alone would be seen as problematic by the average American who views animation as strictly for children. In that regard, I think problematic is a nice label for anime to have. It's a sign that the medium is doing something right to stand out from the rest of the crowd and upsets the status quo.

I agree and that's why i find the term meaningless. For example, I only saw the toilet monster as an Abyss version of the japanese washlets with its "deep cleansing of buttocks", used to represent the infinite possibilities in the Abyss and add a bit of comedy. It was also used (as usual) to outline a Riko driven by her limitless curiosity. I didn't thought that this element could disturb the watchers.
In general, I avoid trying to analyze the psyche of the author through its fictional work, I will end up projecting.

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The ANN Aftershow - Made in Abyss: Problematic Masterpiece?