Forum - View topicREVIEW: Puella Magi Madoka Magica Vol. 2 Blu-Ray
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5861 Location: Virginia, United States |
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One would think we are in some university critical thinking class.
I absolutely love Puella Magi Madoka Magica. That said, there is no way you are going to change the minds of those that dislike Madoka Magica, or who think it is a piece of over hyped crap. Madoka's enemies are just refuting your arguments by breaking the show down to its molecular level and waging war amongst the microbes. They are missing the big picture, and it is their loss. Do any of you Madoka supporters really believe, that you will change the hearts of Madoka's enemies with reams of multipage discussion. Madoka Magica is best enjoyed as the sum of its parts, not the little individual pieces. If you are bored, then keep on responding to Madoka's enemies, but nothing will be achieved. I won't lose any sleep, because they don't like my show. Over a year later, we shouldn't be surprised by this negative drumbeat, it is nothing new. |
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KentaMaeba
 Posts: 121 |
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Reason # 1 I hate debates. There ALWAYS has to be a winner.
Uh, have you been reading any of our posts at all? We're all attacking your idea, not you specifically. And that's only because you challenge our beliefs - you ask why Madoka is so popular, when we all have been telling you why since the very beginning. In that sense, our opinions are biting - can't you respect that? I guess it's too much to ask for. Anyway, you declare our opinions are not understandable, yet you fail to realize the incomprehensibility of your own arguments. I beg you, take a good, long look at your previous posts, then look back at what you just said. Cause frankly, I (and I'm not the only one) find it incredibly ironic that you accuse us for being unreasonable.
I felt the need to hold this particular argument back, but I just can't ignore it. Bluntly, you are not acknowledging any of our opinion. You see all of us fans here as idiots; fanboys who refuse to listen to reason, and therefore it's up to you, the one person who apparently has only creditable opinion, to set us all straight. You find no value, no "gold" in our opinons, and cannot begin to comprehend our reasoning. Henceforth, you have the sole right to force yours upon all of us. That sort of thinking is insulting to all anime fans out there. It's simply disgraceful, and you disgrace yourself even further by providing an argument that counters your own.
That would take up an entire page. You wouldn't believe anything I say anyways (as I seen from your responses to Fencedude and Juno), so here's a link to an in-depth philosophical analysis of the various themes discussed in Madoka. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Talk:Philosophical_Observations Although, I doubt you'd take the time to read through it anyway.
Wow, you actually expressed your opinion here without sounding pretentious... then you just had to go on and insult us again. |
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Veers
 Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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In fact, I'd go so far as to say the fact a wiki page like this even exists should be (a) sufficient answer to Otaking's questions. Why do people enjoy the show? Because it gives them something like this to think about. Of course, that's not the case for all the fans, but it is the case for some of them, including myself. Last edited by Veers on Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Otaking09
 Posts: 637 |
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Then I missed... nothing. If I understand you correctly, its Madoka's extreme will to do as much good, create as much peace as she possibly can to make sure such noble girls, such noble bold honest intentions are never milked ever again? Are you sure that's everything? Then... well, I'm okay with that. Personally, by the time the 10th ep rolled around I had two predictions: 1. Madoka would do what she REALLY wanted to do; protect the ones she cares about the most. 2. Homura & Madoka would unite in some fashion to make sure such things would never happen again. Still... I don't think I'll ever be able to get over the fact on how meticulous Kyubei was, how driven Homura was, and how pure Madoka was. I guess I'm just peeved on how they had to continuously calculate to prove that honest, pure, intentions wins all. The characters - to me - that mattered the most when the show shifts to high gear seemed to react as chess pieces. Almost as if they were simply waiting for the first 9 episodes to pass. As if they weren't necessary in the long term. It's a purely subjective want, but I hope my desire for consistently lively and flavorful characters makes sense in this fashion. Yes, it fits Urobochi's plot style, but man... do I wish they had twice as many episodes to give it a more... natural flow. Don't know if you'll understand my position Fencedude, but my favorite anime tend to rely heavily on catharsis (like Koi Kaze, NANA, Tatami Galaxy, etc); I love character driven stories where it is the characters that ultimately drive the themes and not the other way around. That's probably why I sensed all the "Lynchian" plot methods, if for no other reason because it all seemed beyond the characters scope of understanding = unfair to them. Sorry for offending you Fencedude by not giving you full spectrum but Madoka is pure symbolism which my brain attacks. |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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No. She did not. In fact that is a hilarious oversimplification and complete missing of the goddamn point of spoiler[Madoka's wish] HUGE GODDAMN SPOILERS Here is spoiler[Madoka's wish: "I want to remove every witch before they are born. In every universe...the past and the future...with this hand..." This wish does not make everything sunshine and rainbows, it does not magically (hah!) fix everything and bring everyone back to life. It does precisely what it says, eliminates the witches before they are born, but with a very specific proviso. MADOKA is the one who is doing it. She has created a part to the system, and maintains control of it. So, in the new, witch-free universe, what has changed? Girls still make wishes, in exchange for their souls. They still fight, they still die. But in the end, when they have used all their power, when the cumulative despair they have built up reaches the tipping point, they no longer fall. They no longer become the very thing they were fighting against. They are visited by Madokami, who takes their soul to a place where they can rest at last. They vanish from the world, but they made a difference, they helped. It is not a perfect world. But it is a somewhat better world. It is a world where the cup is half full, not half empty. A world where Magical Girls have hope, even if its just a tiny amount, a spark shining in the darkness. Madoka became that hope. The hope of every magical girl who will live, and has ever lived. In exchange, Madoka ceases to exist as a part of the normal universe. She doesn't just vanish, her very existence is removed. The one person who remembers her is Homura, who continues to fight in Madoka's name. Homura never succeeded in her mission, in fact she failed utterly, but she will not give in to despair. - Don't forget. Always somewhere, someone is fighting for you. - As long as you remember her, you are not alone.] Madoka is not like Princess Tutu. It is not a Fairy Tale. It is not a grand alegory for growing up or whatever. It is a magical girl show, first and foremost. It has its symbolism, it has its themes. But first and foremost, it is the story of a girl. A girl who spoiler[made a wish.] You seem to want the show to have "more" to be more like Princess Tutu. But its not. |
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Veers
Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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Got so wrapped up in that spoiler I forgot to respond to the rest. Duh.
And...Madoka is not one of those shows. Sorry. It just isn't. No amount of forcing will make it that. So stop complaining that its something it isn't, and was never intended to be.
But its not "pure symbolism"! Hell, thats its main distinction from something like Princess Tutu. Princess Tutu is symbolism and metaphor, it explicitly exists in a world where metaphor can become reality! Thats the entire conceit of the setting! Madoka is not that at all. Sure, there is tons and tons of symbolism used, but its all secondary. It is there to enhance the plot. You could remove 95% of the symbolic imagery and not lose the actual thread of the plot. It would have less impact, be less memorable, and not as good, but you could do it. When Mami fights a giant clown-snake inside a hospital/cake, she's actually fighting a giant clown-snake inside a hospital/cake! Its not a metaphor! Its what she's actually goddamn doing! Hell, it wasn't even particularly symbolic of anything about Mami, or Madoka, or Sayaka. It was symbolic of Charlotte (or more accurately, spoiler[the unnamed Magical Girl who became Charlotte]), but that is completely irrelevant to the actual events. |
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GordanHam
Posts: 151 |
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I don't understand what you mean. Criticism is one's own judgement on something that you can choose whether you feel the same way about, but saying that it is not valid "to you" seems to be counter-intuitive. It should simply be valid criticism or not, regardless or whether or not you have the same feelings or even the opposite. If you can see it being valid criticism for someone else then you should recognize it as valid criticism yourself, regardless of your opinion. You loved the emotion, and I didn't. They are on opposite ends, but both valid criticism.
I think you are misinterpreting my view. I don't need the characters in a show to be smart, I just want them to be human. It is basic human nature to question. People question the way things work and why they even exist. I guess it would have been better to say that the flaw with the show is that the characters' mindsets aren't dumb, but inhuman. I know that you have your own strong view about satire and cliche commentary and how it is sometimes just using the guise of these words to get away with the original cliche or trope, and I don't understand how you don't think Madoka Magica is doing this. The first few episodes definitely have a dark and original feel, but the character actions are very much cliche. The girls never once question the mythology behind the existence of the magical girls, witches, or even Kyubey, and just easily except the discover and existence of them all. The acceptance of these incredible feats of impossibility are common in almost every magical girl show. Even magical girl shows that are aimed at elementary school kids, and feature elementary school kids as their protagonists though, have the decency to acknowledge that they are humans and would never not ask the helpful fairy character, in Madoka Magica's case this would be Kyubey, what they are, where are they from, and why are they here. In Madoka Magica's case this is played down to a severe minimum just for the sake of shock value as these questions are answered over the course of the show. And what is really aggravating is that all the questions( spoilers for episode 9)spoiler[Kyubey has no problem answering any of them, and proceeds to do so when someone finally gets the brains to actually ask him. Worse still is that the character Homura knows all this as well. She simply keeps it to herself for mysterious reasons that conveniently allow the show to pad out the drama, despite the fact that sharing the information she knows actually looks like it would be helping her apparent goals. It is like she is punching herself in the stomach for fun. Even after all this, and with the discover of what witches are and the the willingness that Kyubey shows to elaborate on information, know one asks why the heck there are so many god dang witches in one city if they were all magical girls before. Some may fight that comment with, "Well maybe it is has to do with familiars," but then the obvious comeback to that then is "Then why the fudge didn't they ask about familiars then?!"] I certainly have never been a 13 year old girl, but I have been 13 and have known 13 year old girls, and they are not this ignorant. It is even more insulting that these girls in Madoka Magica aren't fighting for friendship, or the power of universal love, but for their lives! And they are still so absent minded as to try and gather a little information. In the case of Evangelion Zac, I think the highlight of the show is definitely the emotion, but what makes the show great is that it doesn't depend on that to support the entire series. It has characters that are honestly being portrayed as humans with minds as the question themselves and their world throughout the series, as well as a world that is creative and can support the narrative effectively. |
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The Coffee God
 Posts: 412 |
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You know, I wish you people would just stop talking about the end of the series in a review thread for a release that is only up to Ep. 08.
Either take it to the Madoka thread in the anime forum, or just wait to have this conversation until the review of the volume 3, when the rest of us don't have to try and avoid every damn comment being posted. |
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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I've actually asked him, several times, to do just that. I really didn't want to discuss the ending here either, but I've marked every spoiler, and made it clear outside the spoiler when it absolutely should not be read if you haven't seen the series. I'm really sorry about all of this. Its just...hard to discuss without the knowledge of the rest of the series, and it makes it much easier to make claims and complaints when they can only be adequately rebutted by knowledge of the entire series. |
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KentaMaeba
Posts: 121 |
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You know this is an anime right? It's impossible to make characters completely human - the goal is to make them appear human as possible. That's the realist approach in literature and storytelling. Henceforth, I find your reasoning implausible. You're suggesting realistic human characters should make smart, obvious choices and proper deduction, when in reality we human beings aren't completely adept in any of that ourselves. I highly doubt Gen Urobuchi was aiming for genre-savvy characters - his intention was to tear apart the Magical Girl genre, including the associated cliches and tropes.
YES. Yes, they are. At least the majority of teenage girls out there are ignorant. And that goes for guys too. This isn't a fantasy world we live in - people out there really are that ignorant, including ourselves as much as we hate to admit. Only through experience do we outgrow our ignorance - we are not perfect beings.
Only Kyoko thinks that way. spoiler[Well, she did.] Mami fought for love and justice. spoiler[At least before her head was munched off.] And Sayaka believed in all that. spoiler[At least until she went psychotic.] Something tells me you need to watch the anime again. Closely. |
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Juno016
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Urobuchi got sick and nearly died (or so he says), and since then, he's been as pessimistic as it comes. But on the topic of non-supporting characters, Urobuchi's own favorite character was Madoka's mother. At first, he wanted to reverse her parents' gender roles for fun, but as soon as he got into it, he found himself really immersed in Madoka's mother, fleshing her out to be a serious role model for Madoka herself. As I watched the series, I definitely noticed that delicate touch in the scenes with Madoka's mother. As for subtly, though, it's hard to argue. Subtle things are subtle. In episode 5, spoiler[going back to the scene in the cafe with Madoka and Homura, there is some interesting symbolism. Homura says something along the lines of, "That's the reason Mami lost her life." As she says that, she plops off the top to her drink... which made me double-take to question whether that was on purpose or not...] In episode 7, spoiler[when Sayaka confronts the two men on the train, the scene closes with her getting off the train and you're left to wonder if she killed the two men or not. Shinbo, the director, said she didn't (I think it was him). The manga adaption's author actually made it pretty clear that she did in the manga version. Urobuchi himself said he left it up to the audience to interpret for themselves.] When it comes to the overall outlook on the series, it's a matter of perception. I don't know how many times you have seen the series, but I should note that the second time I went through it, I had an extremely different experience. The first time through was definitely like I was along for the ride. I had seen it during broadcast, so I did get involved with the speculation and such, but I was still pretty clueless and ignorant to some of the things that went on inside the show, so I had been left satisfied, but still somewhat confused and possibly even disappointed at some minor things that kept bothering me. The second time I watched the show, though, I watched it all at once, and it was then that I finally understood that I wasn't looking at your average anime series. Suddenly, everything made sense. And now, after the up-teenth time, I can't go into a single scene without feeling like I understand the emotion behind it, the motives of the characters, the function of the scene in the series as a whole, and sometimes, even the reason the creators put it in the way they did. If you're interested in the theme of the show, you should just go look up Urobuchi himself. One major point of the show was for him to reach a milestone in his career: creating something he can call a spoiler["heart-warming"] story without lying to himself and his personal values (mentioned in the Fate/Zero volume 1 Afterword--a few years before the start of the Madoka project). The idea for the series started when Shinbo and a few others in the group decided they didn't just want to do a dark or mature magical girl series (like they did with Nanoha), but rather a subversion of the magical girl genre. Urobuchi was, apparently, the guy they hoped could be their writer. That simple plan started it all, and you could possibly say that it's what drove the series at its basic level. It goes deeper than that, but having an understanding of what the creators intended definitely helps put the series into perspective. Madoka was certainly a "subversion" or "deconstruction" of the magical girl genre, and it certainly had a spoiler["heartwarming"] ending, for Urobuchi standards... so in that way, it was a success. But if that was all the series had to offer, we wouldn't be discussing it in such depth, now, would we. Possibly, the most important reason the fans are able to count on the depth of the series is because the creators acknowledge the depth. They've released lots of information in interviews and supplementary material. They communicated with fans on twitter and such during the broadcast. And they, themselves, consider it a staple in their careers... so whether or not they're simply inflating their own egos, there's no doubt that they tried to add layers of depth and sophistication to the series. It's all there. You just have to know where and how to look. Chances are, what worked for other people, like me and many fans in this topic, just didn't work for you. Either you had expectations on a completely different level or you just weren't looking at the things that were supposed to matter. The series isn't perfect, and I know lots of fan-reviewers criticized multiple aspects of it, but the fans are not all spouting nonsense because they're blinded by their love of the series. The creators used Madoka to communicate with their audience, and it just so happened that for one reason or another, a lot of people connected with what they said. In that case, it just might not be the kind of story that is compatible with you. And that's perfectly okay. After all, there are always other masterpieces like Princess Tutu out there, in case Madoka isn't your fancy. ~_^ ...Okay. Bedtime. I'll probably look at all this "stuff" I typed in the morning and be like, "That makes no sense. Why did I say that? I should just stop after the clock hits midnight." So I'll leave it at that for now and fix anything I think I should fix some other day. X_x;;; |
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GordanHam
Posts: 151 |
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You know this is an anime right? It's impossible to make characters completely human - the goal is to make them appear human as possible. That's the realist approach in literature and storytelling. Henceforth, I find your reasoning implausible. [/quote] Wow. If you can't understand that that is what I am saying than I don't know what you are thinking.
Wow again. It is like you completely didn't read anything I posted. I just said that I don't care if they are smart. Strictly speaking, most people probably aren't the smart you are thinking of. You are acting like I am saying I want them to be Sherlock Holmes or something. I just want the characters to have common sense.
And again. Wow. What do you think I mean when I said ignorant? The 2012 Presidential Campaign? It seems like you are the one trying to smarten everyone up. When I say ignorance I mean in the context of society's common sense and their understanding of how the society around them works. I am not taking about global issues or anything here. I am talking about girls in middle school. |
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KentaMaeba
Posts: 121 |
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Eh. I just really want a good night's sleep right now. All this typing is wearing me out.
BTW GordanHam, I think you take matters about the characters way too seriously. Signing out. 
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Ferian
 Posts: 162 |
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rori has been spouting a lot of nonsense lately, and most of that review is just that. Every time the series leaves something vague he finds a way to interpret that as a flaw, even if there is a plausible and actually more likely alternative interpretation that creates a wholesome picture. He is also so immersed in the small details that he either misses or ignores the big picture. He emphasizes shock effect as if it was the only thing Madoka has running for it. Half of the "plot holes" he points out are misinterpretations that could only be made if one was not paying the tiniest bit of attention when watching the show. That review has very little credibility overall, and is one of the worst he's ever written. Finally, when you read bits like this (spoiler for episode 3),
you ought to know that the reviewer has no idea what he is talking about. This may be late, but the very idea that rori's rant on Madoka can be used to back up an argument borders on idiocy. |
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