Forum - View topicREVIEW: Puella Magi Madoka Magica Vol. 2 Blu-Ray
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23856 |
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@Juno016 - thanks for that background info! Interesting.
@ Veers - Katanagatari rocks! |
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Ferian
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Which is not true at all, as all of it spoiler[builds up to Madoka's wish.]
...This doesn't even make sense. The first 2/3s of the show revealed most points individually. The final episodes use that build up to give a complete view of the whole picture and reiterate those points for emphasis. It's not like we were infodumped with the whole plot on short notice in the final few episodes, like what studio BONES is fond of. There is a rather even distribution of information throughout the whole series. While the final 3 episodes indeed cover more than any other segment of equivalent length, it is well within bounds considering it is the climax of the show, and most of what is shown there is pretty much a repetition of points presented beforehand.
I have qualms about some of the small details. But the overall picture is nothing short of great. By the way and just in case, this is an opinion.
No. Unlike rori, Zac does not behave like a pretentious elitist prick who always knows better than others at every given occasion.
Ultimately, the real world is no fairytale, so Tutu is cheap easy writing as well, right? Let's all watch documentaries and fanboy about the depth of plot and the exquisite revelations of the finer details of deep sea lifeforms and their lifecycle. Now before you say I'm being ridiculous, re-read what you have written. And in case you still don't understand my point after that, you are saying that Madoka is at fault for not conforming to reality (if I am mistaken, please elaborate on the meaning of your words, preferably in a less confusing manner), which is essentially the point of fiction - it doesn't have to be an accurate depiction of reality. Furthermore, Madoka DID take action. spoiler[Or are you conveniently forgetting that she spends all eternity preventing births of witches? She didn't just make a wish, she took it onto herself to see through that that wish never goes wrong as well.] Furthermore, spoiler[nothing has become "nice". The situation is "better" but it was not even remotely close to a perfect solution. After all, the changes that occured have any meaning from a moral standpoint only.]
No, she doesn't. spoiler[She alters reality, yes. However, she doesn't remove any elements from it, she only adds a single explicit rule that she herself enforces. The new reality isn't that much better than the previous one, too. Witches came about mainly from magic girls, whereas demons take form without the need for such triggers so in a way, it's worse.]
Not to me it doesn't. It may have to do with my views on fiction as a whole. I am rather more fond of worldbuilding than attempting to convey some sort of "deep and meaningful" message. And I loved the world Urobuchi Gen has presented in Madoka Magica. Personally for me, symbolism is mostly meaningless. I'm usually much more interested in the characters and setting. ... Lesson learned from the above: don't start two hour long phonecalls in the middle of writing a post. Well, since I've written all that might as well post it, even if there are two pages of discussion following the post I'm replying to. P.S.
I haven't even seen RahXephon, and I'm not fond of reading spoilers accidentally left uncovered. So that's a no. Why did you even combine the two like that? |
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Otaking09
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But I don't like Madoka's involvement being just that since that is pretty much her only likable action in a whole series where it was nothing passive observation.
The spoiler[time loop] was used too cleanly; everything went according to Homura's and Kyubey's plan EXCEPT spoiler[Madoka's wish]. For all that concise craftiness, I just found the eventual trade-off a little predictable, and a little empty because it's not like she had any choice. The message I got from her action was "life is hard. harder when you have to adapt to situations you don't deserve. but if you 'wish' hard enough you can make a difference". 3 episodes vs. the rest = cheap to me.
Nope. Because Tutu had rules, played by them and didn't pull any last minute during the climax that would've curve-balled our understanding of that universe. There was no info-dumping as characters are clear, honest, blunt, and directly active in the plot and fight to change the direction it goes many times. Madoka's ending climax feels more fairy tale-wishfulfillment than any of the saddest tearjerking moments in Tutu (spoiler[Duck sacrificing her practical humanity for someone who hardly cared vs. "Wish Cure-All"]
Too little, too late. I never cared about her so this sacrifice came with too little warning and little to no respect for Madoka's standing. Even if it is a "better" situation, that last ep treats it as if spoiler[the Lord is rising from the dead; no kyubei, no witches, no warping good intentions = victory] If it weren't for Tatami G.'s clever, upfront, and crafty use of spoiler[time looping] then maybe I could see Madoka's ending in a better light.
Please tell me you aren't talking about the spoiler[final few seconds of the last episode hinting the sequels = the sheer definition of shoehorning in an excuse to continue] On that, there was literally NO WARNING for that.
Me too, that's why I like Tutu, NGE, Tatami G., Berserk, and prefer FMA (1st series) over Brotherhood because it takes the entire nature of that world and eulogizes the struggles into both a personal world philosophy that characters recognize and rely on, and we get a climax there that reforms, if not directly refutes (or in some rare cases fails to refute), that message. The plot heavy characters in Madoka felt like living billboards (spoiler[Homura... well, too little too late at the end, and it's not like she made any active interest to be likable prior to her story being told finally. Kyubey? Well, if it weren't for him how on earth would we know what's next? And we only knew what was next based on when he felt like it = convenient infodumping]) for their stake in the plot but didn't make me care/hate because they are so... passionless. The only energy felt from the characters are spoiler[Sayaka and Kyoko and they are as important to what eventually happens as all the magical girls throughout the generations = what was the point of having their arcs if they'll just be an ingredient to spice up Madoka's wish]. Another example of last minute "save the world/everyone walks away happy/"better" ending is Clannad After Story's.
Because dtm is an enforcer of calling those two shows the best; I asked him to explain why on a separate forum. He started with Rah and he just... stopped. I dunno. I put spoiler tags on everything I said, so feel free to check it out/post more there. My Madoka comments there were geared for dtm though so don't take them so seriously. |
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Fencedude5609
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Watch episode 10 again. spoiler[pay attention to Madoka's personality in the previous loops. Consider why she is more passive in the loop we have been following.]
Uhh...what? spoiler[Kyuubey had no plan, past "have girls make contracts" That was his sole motivation and purpose. Homura's plan was "prevent Madoka from contracting and defeat Walpurgisnacht." Two things she'd failed miserably at over and over again. You seem to think that Homura and Kyuubey were working together, which is insane. And the time loop certainly did not "go smoothly", it was a living hell for Homura, the only person who knew it existed.] I still think you did not pay attention at all to the series, and by the time it got to the end, were just projecting your already existent complaints onto it, and completely missed what was actually going on. Don't feel like responding to the rest of your post, since its just more of you not even having a basic comprehension of the events of the show. And fudge that. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I think I need to change the language filter so the F word now becomes 'Fencedude'.
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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Hey, I only swore once in that post! |
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Otaking09
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spoiler[They hardly touched anything during this loop and, suddenly, without warning, we have an entire ep that justifies their behavior?] This is why I love Tatami because spoiler[we get a sense of progression throughout that show instead of it suddenly having to fall on our lap.] I also call it shock value because of its spoiler[abruptness and we having to rely on for no other reason than to justify.]
If I don't buy the story in "how I'm supposed to" (shouldn't I have my say in how I choose to view it?), it's because I don't believe in what it's all about. Madoka isn't like Mulholland Dr.; we shouldn't have to rely constant exposition to care/believe; we should connect with characters who are experiencing. It's like Kyubey told Madoka to spoiler[watch a movie of all her friends suffering, told her "this has happened over, and over again... just so you know" (and how does someone exactly handle something like THAT?) and told her "you can make this stop; you know how to...",] and then... what else is she supposed to do? It's not like Homura/Kyubey wanted to change anything; heck, Homura felt spoiler[she still could change things despite her infinite experience telling otherwise.] Remember, I'm criticizing the layout of the plot rather than how much it connects with each other. |
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Fencedude5609
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No, that is a really silly comparison. You need to rely on that episode because...THAT IS THE EPISODE THAT PROVIDES THE INFORMATION. Not hard!
This is silly. This show isn't Tatami Galaxy. Personally I couldn't stand that show, so I only watched 1 episode of it, so whatever. Anyway, your objection now is that they didn't lay out the plot in the way you think they should have? Why should I care? Why should any of us care? You keep wanting this show to be other shows. Cut that out, its irritating and pointless. |
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MUSAWE
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[EDIT: Post erased because a certain person seems to have forgotten that he is banned from posting further in this thread. - Key]
Last edited by MUSAWE on Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Otaking09
Posts: 637 |
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Then... whatever experimental Nolan-style storytelling device they tried to pull off here... logically, I do not follow and emotionally, the characters are blind, goaded chess pieces that I do not relate to and cannot care enough to not mind the storytelling. Is this difficult to understand?
You'd do well to try it again. Actually... what are your tastes? What genres do you like? What are your favorite movies? What are your favorite anime? What ranks as great as Madoka to you? All of a sudden I just realized a basic truth in debate; if a person cannot fathom what you are saying then all you are doing is confusing/angering.
I'm making comparisons so that others who have seen these can know what I'm talking about. This is analytically defending my opinion. It didn't irritate you when I mentioned shows you knew so if it works, great. If not... then please, for the love of sanity, stop telling me how to judge shows. I can't judge something is good if something else does "it" (pulls off cleverness unique enough) better. Everyone wouldn't rate visual novel animes individually because they all have so many similarities that your brain jumps in and picks it apart. I've seen enough experimental movies/anime/games to look at Madoka and just say "it didn't try hard enough". It's a matter of experience that dictates my criticism so if you can't understand my way, then why are you still talking to me? |
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Fencedude5609
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I find it mind boggling that you think this is a particularly experimental form of storytelling. Seriously. The show is pretty straightforward, up to and including the use of a judiciously placed spoiler[flashback episode to tell us important backstory. And yes, not telling us Homura's history upfront was blatantly done for maximum dramatic effect. That is the entire POINT of "storytelling"]
Thanks, but no thanks.
No, you are saying "Tutu/Tatami/Whatever" did things a certain way, and Madoka didn't, and thus the way Madoka did it is wrong. This goes back to your initial Princess Tutu comparison. The shows are basically nothing alike, and your desperate, flailing search for a comparison is why Madoka keeps coming up short. Of all the shows you've mentioned, the best comparison is with Uta~Kata, and even that only goes so far. |
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MUSAWE
Posts: 34 |
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[EDIT: Post erased because a certain person seems to have forgotten that he is banned from posting further in this thread. - Key]
Last edited by MUSAWE on Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MUSAWE
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The way in which this is executed is what separates good writing from bad. Madoka's is exceptionally bad. |
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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[EDIT: Post erased so that people won't be confused about a response to content that got erased. - Key]
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Ferian
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Umm... Sorry for asking but what did you watch? As far as I recall, spoiler[there are now demons instead of witches, QB is the same as ever. The "no warping good intentions" clause has only a moral bearing. There is no need for magical girls to become witches because demons appear spontaneously.] And just because the Internet doesn't have a sarcastic font, I'll add this disclaimer: The above sentence is to be read as if said in a snappy and sarcastic manner.
Maybe if that show's first half didn't bore me half to death, I'd finish it when it was airing. But that is beside the point. Do you mean to say, "it would look better if I didn't know better"? Well, that's something I consider a fool's argument.
No, I am not talking about thes final few seconds of the last episode. There, I said it. Does that make you happy? spoiler[Anyway, you are fundamentally wrong about that part and I feel the need to point it out: that scene depicts the end of the world. Furthermore, Homura hearing Madoka can only mean one thing - she's reaching her limits. Her "wings" are filled with abstract imagery akin to the witches' words. What sequel do you derive from scene depicting Appocalypse and the death of the other main character? No, it did not serve that purpose. It was one of those kinds of "where are they now" epilogues.] What I was actually talking about were spoiler[the rules of the modified world] that is shown in the latter half of the final episode, and that was effin' obvious.
Yes, because every epilogue in every series has a "warning" of sorts.
Haven't seen Tutu (and probably never will due to being unfortunate enough to read rori's rambling on how Tutu is better than Madoka over and over again; by the way, this is also one of the reasons I'll probably never watch LoGH - I'm already biased to dislike it). NGE sunk in its own LCL... I mean, in its own symbolism and technobabble (whereas the characterisation and deconstruction were handled excellently, I strongly disliked how the series never gave any answers, only posed more questions and kept playing at being cryptic to the very end). Tatami Galaxy's first half dragged on, I gave up mid-6th episode so I'm not going to comment on it, either. Berserk indeed has a rich world, great characterization, and being a dark fantasy series, it's easily one of my favorites but that's all beside the point. As for FMA1 vs. FMAB, FMA1 handled some of its characters (the homunculi) slightly better but I disliked the segragation of plot and characterisation (episodes dedicated purely to the development of Lust, for example - they appeared as filler from the standpoint of story progression), not to mention that it has one of the most pathetic villains ever. So it loses even that edge. As for its worldbuilding... you can't be serious in saying FMA1 handled this side of things better. spoiler[It has exactly 1 country, with all of the outside world remaining uninvolved from beginning to end. Its homunculi don't make sense. Its politics don't make sense. The "other side" of the Gate being our world doesn't even try to make sense...] Anyway, this is a story for a different forum so I'm not going to elaborate on the above. Okay, with this not-so-little excurse over with, let's get back on track. The point I intended to make here has been lost in the process of writing the above paragraph... 
Point 1: You're wrong. (It's been a while since I last got to say that and I'll elaborate later so just wait for it.) Point 2: It's a 12 episode series. Of course the characterisation will be subtle.
Disagreed. The hints were there all along. It's not the creators' fault someone couldn't be bothered to be a bit attentive when watching to spot them. spoiler[I had found her "likeable" as you put it from the point when she tried stopping Mami in episode 3 onwards. The hint of kindness was pretty obvious there; coupled with her fatalistic speech at the end of that episode, it became a strong point to consider. Her later interactions with Sayaka showed much of her feelings as well. Episode 10 simply gave good reasoning for all feelings she had shown up to that point.]
There are two times I recall it infodumping without a good reason (spoiler[end of episode 8 - the sentence about magical girls growing into witches; and episode 12 - the commentary on what is happening to the Universe]) I'd say, both of those are firmly excused and justified by the narrative. Furthermore, there is a plausible explanation for the second one, albeit a speculative one.
You only feel so because you weren't paying attention to what was happening on the screen. This is the only conclusion I can draw.
Sayaka (and by extension, Kyoko, as their interactions are an important part of Miki's development) was given much more screentime due to being Shinbou's favorite character. As such, it's no wonder the characterisation of these two was more readily apparent than the others.
...I cannot even begin to describe how wrong that line of thinking is. By that logic, spoiler[we knew from the start that Madoka was going to make a wish so let's skip all the "unimportant" stuff and get it over with. 5 minutes, show's over.] The point of their arcs: 1) Characterisation of Madoka (passive characterisation, and by that I mean, she watches from the sidelines, learns, and changes according to her newfound knowledge) that leads up to spoiler[her wish.] This is not just an important point for the series, it is the point. 2) Introducing more information through experiences rather than expository infodumping which you appear to dislike so much. 3) Sayaka's subplot is a story of its own, and one I found pretty interesting, too. 4) (only semi-serious) Shinbou indulging in fawning over his favorite character.
You're an idiot. If you really think it's the same thing, seriously, you are an idiot. I have little more to say on the subject matter, refer to my above statements about the state of the world after the change and maybe you'll be able to deduce where you are wrong. spoiler[Clannad's Deus Ex Machina only makes sense in the context of the game - collect enough points and you will be rewarded with a better ending; it's a simple part of the game mechanics. When transmitted into anime form, it becomes a blatant Deus Ex Machina introduced for the sole sake of earning everyone a happy end. There, events had been retconned. In the case of Madoka, what had been retconned was the whole damn Universe, but not the events, as both Homura and Madoka clearly remember, unlike Tomoya who only has a vague recollection of alternate realities as a "dream".]
May have something to him being, you know, banned.
A statement remains as such no matter the recipient. Everyone should carry responsibility for their words. So I see no reason not to take everything said seriously. Last edited by Ferian on Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:27 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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