Forum - View topicNEWS: Sentai Adds 3rd You're Under Arrest TV, Yozakura, Tayutama
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Colonel Wolfe
 Posts: 370 |
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Dragonrider, you simply cannot say that someone who downloads anime fansubs isn't a fan of that anime. That's a dumb statement to make. If they weren;t fans, they wouldn't be downloading it in the first place and downloading it until the very last episode. They are anime fans, whether they're watching anime fansubs or not.
This underground market has existed since before anime was licensed for North America and it will continue to exist until long afterwards. I think that your statement is wrongheaded to such a degree that there wouldn't be millions, perhaps billions of anime fans downloading various anime fansubs if they weren't fans of these various shows. Just one look at the tracker information from the various fansub groups says it all. Some single episodes are downloaded thousands of times before those anime fans move on to the next episode release. Now, while it may not be legal (which I'll grant you that) I just think it's a stupid comment to make to say that those who download anime fansubs aren't fans. They wouldn't be downloading those fansubs if they weren't fans because they wouldn't be wasting their time downloading it. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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It's most likely true that the sub-only releases aren't selling as much as the dub releases, but is there a huge difference that would cover the money required to be spent on a dub? I think not. That's why niche shows are getting the sub-only treatment. |
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GrilledEelHamatsu
 Posts: 703 |
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You forgot to mention that there was a boom that hit in 2002 that lasted for five years, where anime got mainstream enough to warrent a dub with nearly every release and where anime got more TV airplay. The problem that occured was that many R1 labels were licensing and dubbing everything like crazy and when most of thier bi-lingual releases didn't generate enough profit everyone had to pay. One of the main reasons why Dentsu closed down Pioneer/Geneon USA was that most of it's dubs were not selling well at all. During the early half of the boom 2002-2005 it was easy to sell a bi-lingual title, it was guranteed a profit because it was either availible on TV or on VOD. By fall 2007, it was over. Most TV networks stopped showing anime, G4 in more ways sunk Geneon USA by killing their Anime Unleashed block for no apparent reason. You also have to look at the fact that during the 1990s and early to mid 2000s, it was much easier to license anime, now in in circa 2010 licensing fees are much higher and investing in dubs is just too risky and dangerous. I know dub fans want to see dubs, but the economic conditions and the high licensing fees are just not favorable at this time. The first season of AnimEigo's YUA is too expensive for most otaku, singles are WAY too hard to find and boxsets are steep as high as $129. Section23's investor TBS, feels that a $29 boxset can generate better profit. Section23 needs an investor that will allow them to do, once FCI/Pony Canyon comes into the picture they shall go back to dubbing. Also once the conditions are favorable, you'll proable only see about a dozen titles dubbed. Just wait. BTW AnimEigo came into existance in 1989. 1991 was the first year anime got licensed for the US home video market. Streamline(which folded in 1999) Central Park Media(which went belly up this year) and AnimEigo were among the first R1 licensing companies. During the mid and late 80s, anime was only imported. |
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GrilledEelHamatsu
Posts: 703 |
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THERE is a difference between looking online for streamed anime fansubs for the sole purpose of viewing then illegally downloading anime for sale and distribution. There's nothing wrong with fansubbing but there is wrong with piracy. |
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Colonel Wolfe
Posts: 370 |
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Grilled, I know what you mean. It took me a few years before I actually booke down and bought the first season of YUA. Even when they had dropped to $80 per set. However, I broke down when Right Stuf began selling the boxed sets for $35-40 for each set, I finally decided to buy them. It's not like they're unaffordable now ...
I understand what you're saying. However, for those anime fans who are passing by their titles, they're going to want to consider revisiting some of those titles and releasing bilingual DVD's on some shows. Until that happens, I just won't waste my time and money into purchasing their anime sets. |
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dragonrider_cody
Posts: 2541 |
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How did I know you would completely side step the point of my post, and the one right before it? Is it because you simply don't have an answer? I mean, you couldn't even properly read an earlier statement about TAN having the TV rights to YUA Season 1, and then tried to blame others for your mistake, so I guess forming an actual opinion would be too hard. The facts are pretty simple and were backed up by the recent ANN podcast. Dubbed series don't always sell enough to warrant the added costs. And even in certain cases, the subbed sets actually sell more. Not to mention, Japanese licensors sometimes will want more for a title if it is planned to be dubbed, because it increases the exposure of the title, even though it doesn't always increase sales. We're at a point where not everything can be dubbed. Sentai, Nozomi, Media Blasters and Bandai just don't have the money. Funi has a couple big series that can pay for a lot of big bombs, just like ADV had back in the day. But they are also be selective about their licenses, and skipping over series they feel they can't profitably dub. And I doubt there are billions who are downloading anime episodes. That would imply that a third to half of the world is actively illegally downloading anime, and most of those people don't even know what it is. This is quite a stupid comment. I don't consider a parasite to be a fan. You may like something, but if you're doing nothing but stealing out of the pockets of the hard working people who created these shows, that you don't deserve to call yourself a fan. You're doing nothing but being greedy and selfish. Also, you still couldn't answer my question. Since you can get just about every anime ever dubbed online somewhere, and either stream it or download it illegally for free, than what's the reason to buy it? Also, what reason is their to buy the legitimate versions of a Funi series, when you can buy a foreign bootleg at half the price, with better packaging, and often better video? I mean if I did that, I would still be a fan and supporting the show by your thought process right??? Now that I've vented, it's probably best we get back to the actual shows licensed. The sub dub debate will go on endlessly. There is no need to repeat it everytime Sentai, Media Blasters, or Nozomi announce a new show. It's just gotten tiresome at this point. Sub only releases aren't going away anytime soon, so there is no point in arguing about it. |
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PlatinumHawke
Posts: 204 |
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Thanks for reinforcing the market pattern that lead to sub-only releases in the first place. I'm sure other people will enjoy the lower cost and quicker turn around times on their anime fix. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6874 Location: Kazune City |
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Where exactly are these legions of YUA fans? I remember seeing some speculation that AnimEigo took big losses on the dubbing and release of YUA S1, and that's what moved them away from being a major player in the anime home video market. But speculation aside... a look at the numbers for the first season on sites like this one, myanimelist, anime-planet, and AniDB all show that YUA Season 1 isn't highly rated or even seen by that many people. Look at the company it keeps at MAL -- Aquarian Age, Kujibiki Unbalance, Shin Angyo Onshi, Poor Sisters' Story, etc. -- not particularly noteworthy shows. Another telling statistic is from this very site. YUA S1 has been rated by 399 people. Princess Tutu, one of the most disappointing underperformers of all time, has nearly twice as many ratings at 782. And as usual for sequels, the numbers only go down. Obviously, Internet site numbers don't tell the whole story, but I'm pretty sure the folks at S23 aren't looking for legions of fans that don't exist. More likely, they're looking to sell a few thousand units of a low-cost sub-only release, avoid losing money, and thus stay in business. With dubbing, maybe they would get a few more sales from picky fans who come up with any excuse not to buy shows they like. But maybe they'd also wind up like Geneon USA in the process. And besides, it's not like they'd be able to work the same dubbing magic that AE did back in the day: animenewsnetwork.com/news/2003-06-26/coastal-carolina-closing |
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dragonrider_cody
Posts: 2541 |
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Also, didn't Animeigo say they didn't license Season 2 years ago, because they couldn't afford it? I'm sure if there were all these legions of fans hammering for a dubbed release, and if they had sold so many copies of Season 1, they would have gone after the second. I think it's a bit more than a coincidence that right after they licensed and released this show that their anime output dropped off significantly. Hell, it doesn't even seem that they kept all the box sets for season 1 in print. If it was such a huge hit, they would most certainly have ordered additional printings.
I'm sure that if YUA was such a huge hit, that even if Animeigo couldn't afford it, someone else would have picked up Season 2 long ago. But everyone had passed on it until now. So more than likely, the only reason we got it and Season 3 now, is because the license finally came down to a point where a subbed release could be profitable. But considering this title doesn't even make it into the Right Stuf Top 10, even when marked down to $20, I can't see how it would have made a profit with a dub. |
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Colonel Wolfe
Posts: 370 |
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Actually, that wasn't the reason why AnimEigo stopped licensing anime titles. They never left the anime market in the first place. They simply stopped licensing/acquiring new titles simply because it was more profitable to license "Jidaigeki" films than it was to license "anime."
AnimEigo is known for releasing bi-lingual anime titles. Before acquiring the license to Yawara, Urusei Yatsura was the last anime title that AnimEigo had license, immediately following YUA. With the emergence of other companies such as Pioneer Animation, ADV Films and Geneon, AnimEigo had opted to forego acquiring any new licenses and they continue to renew the licenses for YUA, Urusei Yatsura and many other titles that they have. The only title that they allowed to lapse was Kimagure Orange Road. YUA continues to be a strong seller for AnimEigo. More than likely, one of the moves to lower the prices on the boxed sets have been that they had finally re-cooped the costs they had paid out for licensing the series and paying for the dubbing for the series. Personally, I have purchased three complete sets of the series, selling previous copies of the sets I had purchased simply because some friends asked me if I would sell them my purchased sets of the anime series. The sets have been affordably priced for the better part of the past year and AnimEigo is now reporting for the first time that they have run out of stock and are currently waiting for restock. |
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Zippydsm
Exempt from Grammar Rules
Posts: 134 |
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Yozakura Quartet was great, Tayutama sub par ecchi it had its moments but still pretty meh.
Yozakura Quartet was just awesome a shame it felt rushed and the end was so so,but even still its up their with Kekkaishi ,Shonen onmyouji and Kaze no stigma. As for the bi-lingual/domestic argument the game has changed they need tog et shows out as fast as they can to whatever medium that will bring in money this is why proper translation is always the last thing they worry about. Mabye in another 5 years web sites will be able to pull more ad rev in thus we will see a real drive to proper subbing with whatever shoveling of the dub they can.... but currently I see to much bi polar qaulity to even try and stick with anything properly licensed, its simply not worth my time nor investment....... |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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No. they're leeches. If you made something with your grubby little paws, slaved on it till your eyes were so strained you now need glasses, wouldn't you want to be properly recompensed for it? Anime is made with the sweat, stress & tears of people in Japan who see nothing for those fansubs. EVEN if you go with the "the company makes the money, not the artists", is that money not turned around into future anime/jobs for those artists? Do the fan subbers pay a single yen to any of the original creators? Then they're stealing, plain & simple. I'm not getting into copyright crap here. If you don't want to clean up after your mutt so you let him poo in my yard, I may not be out any money, but I am inconvenienced wasting my time by having to do your job for you to clean up after your dog. If you don't want to pay for water so you wait till I go to work to water your lawn from my hose, again I'm out & you got something for free. By downloading anime & not paying into the system you've helped create the very situation you despise. Anime isn't selling as it did so there's less money. Obviously the dif in sales is so small the cost of paying a new set of actors to dub the shows would not be recouped so they're being released in their pristine unadulterated original form. (How's that spin?) For your convenience, subtitles have been added, but can be turned off so you can watch it in it's pure form, practically untouched. I do not know about you, but I have never, ever, ever bought a title for a dub actor alone. I have bought many, many titles for the Japanese cast-practically all the 2300 dvds in my collection were in part influenced by the Japanese cast. I regularly use ANN's cast lists in deciding whether to buy titles. It's on sale, do I want it? No one interesting in the cast-nope, no sale. The only ones that miss that would be titles by authors I like (Clamp, but the cast affects the price I'm willing to pay. I just got Tsubasa Season 1 Viridian Box for $27 & am still waiting for the XXXholic Viridian box & a TRSI Funi sale)
Because a lot of those downloaders are students with no money & a low enough moral standard their lack of cash+desire to see the anime/movie(because Hollywood is getting hit also)>any sense of justice/fairness that the makers should be properly compensated.
Of course, because you're one of the leechs who justifies it with "I buy SOME anime" & cover with whatever excuse you're using not to buy the title.
I see a lot of them downloading practically everything just to see if it's any good. At the height of it all a couple yrs back, many seemed to develop this glazed over jaded attitude, having gorged on so much, nothing had value. And nothing really did. The more you pay, the more it's worth. If you have a book you paid a buck for at a garage sale & your dog chews it up-oh well. Only paid a buck for it. If you liked it enough, you'll buy another copy at a bookstore or keep an eye peeled for it at another garage sale. It lacks the value of a book you paid $20 for brand new. (The other option is rarity. If you have something that can no longer be purchased obviously there's a value to it. I have anime no longer available in the states I know are more precious to me because I cannot replace them)
You know, if I have nothing else to do, I'll watch whatever crap's on tv. Doesn't make me a fan of the show, just willing to check it out.
Isn't the computer downloading it? I used to know people who set the download up for while they were at work or asleep. What do you mean wasting time? When I was a child there was something called Sunday Drives where one would just drive around aimlessly looking at whatever there was to see (yeah, gas was a quarter or fifty cents. I remember gas wars 11 cent gas, but no blue chip stamps & mom hot going to certain stations because they offered green stamps which she didn't collect) Same concept. Gas was cheap. so no one really thought about wasting it doing nothing. Last edited by CCSYueh on Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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russ869
Posts: 424 |
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Yeah, I agree. I'll definitely buy Yozakura Quartet if it's dubbed; if it's not dubbed (which... I guess it's not if they're releasing it in March, right?) then that buy changes to a maybe. It seemed like fun enough show in the beginning; what changed? I don't finish series on the internet; I only watch enough to give me a first impression. So what are your guys opinions on this series?
*BUZZ* Wrong! ...unless you're talking about certain Funimation DVDs, in which case, maybe.
Maybe not so much of a difference as you're thinking.
I'll repeat myself again. What the hell difference do you think there is? The only difference with illegal sale is that someone gets money who's not supposed to and someone spends money on an illegal product. In both cases the people who should make money don't, and both are equally piracy. You see this depends on what you mean by "there's nothing wrong with fansubbing." For instance I work on fansubbing anime which have never been released in English. I buy official import DVDs and make subtitles that I share with other fans, but it's for the intent of their personal use not so they can just watch online for free.
I don't know why people always say this. As a student I had more money and was buying more movies and anime than ever before in my life. All it takes is some unique skills.
Damn, I always hated it when my dad made us go on Sunday Drives. 
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I say that a lot of downloaders are students because when my teen was in High School that was the justification all her little friends used for downloading licensed stuff like Gravitation. "I don't get enough allowance!" I've seen people here use that excuse-they couldn't buy ALL the anime they wanted because they were in Jr High/High School. (Operation word is als "all". So you have to buy one title now & another title next month. That's what I;m doing in this recession/recovery/wherever we are)
And a lot of anime fans are in a younger demographic than I am. It's sort of amazing to find other 50 yr olds into anime. I want Neo Angelique, but it all depends on my finances when TRSI has a sale on their product. I could care less about a dub because I am mostly interested for the VA's. (It's harem. Plot doesn't matter, does it?) The other idea of actually buying the product is the company might license others in the title. I been wanting Angelique for so long & never figured any of it would ever make it over. At least part of my buying Haruka from Bandai Visual was the hope they'd bring over more of it & maybe Angelique or other harem titles for gals. I keep hoping someone will spring for the new Seiya title & then maybe bring over Hades & the rest of the TV show ADV left hanging if it sells well. |
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Colonel Wolfe
Posts: 370 |
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CCS and russ, I never said that I don't support the anime industry. I have over 600 anime DVD's, which I have mostly purchased through Right Stuf.com. Now, I'm not saying that I approve of just downloading anime fansubs but that if companies are going to release licensed anime then they need to offer something extra that is going to entice consumers to buy their products.
All I'm saying is that subtitled only anime have always just catered to a very small crowd of anime fans. The market for anime among consumers is more geared toward "English" or "translated audio" that anime fans appreciate more than subtitled content. Take a look at foreign films. The majority of entertainment fans have a personal dislike for movies or television events that contain subtitles for the simple reason that they don't like paying to go see a movie and have to read at the same time. They're turned off by such films for the simple reason that they're diverting their attention away from actually watching the movie and having to read the movie instead. While it may not be logical to some people, it's a common attitude among moviegoers. Believe it or not, with the sudden shift toward subtitled only anime, the industry is alienating those anime fans who prefer English dubbed anime and won't buy the titles because they are not included. Now, while I support the anime industry, I simply don't buy subtitled only anime and the reasoning is that there is no incentive to buy it. Now, if Sentai Filmworks had announced that they might or would later release the series in dubbed form and allow some form of trade in or special upgrade feature at a later date, then I would be willing to support their releases. I just don't see why I should purchase their titles since they don't offer anything extra. The reason why I countered about your "they are not anime fans" is because your statement was inherently wrong. Just because an anime fan is downloading an anime fansub doesn't mean that they're not an anime fan. They just don't support the market by buying anime from a retailer. I will agree with you on saying that most anime fans who are downloading fansubs are mostly teenagers who don't have the money to spend on it. I would also go on to say that Japanese anime has always received a lot of exposure due to the efforts of the anime fansub/bootleg community. It's only in this current age of mass licensing that anime companies are striking back against fansub groups and the projects they produce. |
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