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Tony K. wrote:

From now on, state "yay" or "nay" in every single post for your stance on whether ANN forums should limit discussions to R1 titles only. No questions asked, no regard for anyone outside of the U.S., NOTHING. Just more civil and less confusing discussion to make everyone happy Very Happy

.

I say Nay, anime is anime. Regardless if it isn't yet available in the US. I could only imagine the amount of locking you (Tony) would have to do to lock all the threads. Think of all the fresh faces that won't know this wanting to discuss their favorite new show of the season.

Lets not turn this into Nazi Germany, lets just keep the boards open to discussion about anime. To the people who are upset about the discussion on series that aren't licensed. Stop complaining no one wants to hear it, if you don't want to hear about series that are being fansub avoid those topics. Don't punish the rest of the board because you are upset about fansub.
Till next time,

Delta Kiral

Deltakiral wrote:

Tony K. wrote:

From now on, state "yay" or "nay" in every single post for your stance on whether ANN forums should limit discussions to R1 titles only. No questions asked, no regard for anyone outside of the U.S., NOTHING. Just more civil and less confusing discussion to make everyone happy Very Happy

.

I say Nay, anime is anime. Regardless if it isn't yet available in the US. I could only imagine the amount of locking you (Tony) would have to do to lock all the threads. Think of all the fresh faces that won't know this wanting to discuss their favorite new show of the season.

Lets not turn this into Nazi Germany, lets just keep the boards open to discussion about anime. To the people who are upset about the discussion on series that aren't licensed. Stop complaining no one wants to hear it, if you don't want to hear about series that are being fansub avoid those topics. Don't punish the rest of the board because you are upset about fansub.
Till next time,

Delta Kiral

Agreed. I say Nay too. I really can't think of anything to say that Delta Kiral hasn't already said. Limiting the ANN forums to only R1 titles discussions would mean that you'd have to remove all the non-licensed anime from the Encyclopedia too (which I consider to be one of the most informative sources of info on anime). Frankly, I think ANN's forums are moderated pretty well as it is.

Kidder wrote:

Limiting the ANN forums to only R1 titles discussions would mean that you'd have to remove all the non-licensed anime from the Encyclopedia too (which I consider to be one of the most informative sources of info on anime).

Great point on the encyclopedia, I remember when the site was down for a week when hard drive issues, I didn't know what to do with my time. Also being able to look at a title check how much each volume was so easy and nice, and not having that was a pain.

Kidder wrote:

Frankly, I think ANN's forums are moderated pretty well as it is.

I think that are moderators do a great job here. They take nothing but crap all day long and yet they let have topic that are semi-OT and have done a good job with locking threads that are get off topic.

I really think that boards are great the only thing that bugs me is amount of threads asking for "new anime to watch". Specially when that person will ask for titles similar to a thread in the last couple of days.
Till next time,

Delta Kiral

Agreed, like it or not any hardcore fans are always excited about the latest and greatest and it would be unfair to force us to only discuss what is essentially old news.

Focus on content, not its means of distribuition!

You know what I know Tony will be shocked but I am nay aswell. Yes I am all for people discussing fansubs. I do not beleive any subject should be out of bounds.

The point I was makeing is how many on the forums go about it. My point was there was alot of tact missing in how people post about this series or that. I personally cannot see how simply asking that people just put a little tact in their posts on the subject is offensive.

I feal some people are being far too defensive about the issue. Did I say lock the fansub links. No I did not. Did I attack fansubbers about fansubbing. No I did not. Did I single anyone in particular out. No I did not. I am sorry if your fealings are hurt Tony. Notice I did say moderators, and many forum members. Thats a rather large group.

My question to anyone in general is how hard is it to just say that a series you brought up is fansub? I cannot begin to fathom what the big deal is about asking for a little decorum when you choose to discuss a illegally obtained series. By the way I use the locations people use as a good reference. Let us not use the exceptions method.

Think about it if people on these forums who are into fansubs just made it a point to just say what they are discussing is a fansub it has alot of benefits to everyone.

1. People are no longer confused. Example I checked into a series you recommended, and it is not in the encyclopedia. Well you just wasted another posters time since they were clueless.

2. Hey this helps people in the recommendation process. If a poster is into fansubs then they might be very interested. Then if a poster is not into fansubs they can ignore it, and move along. The point of a recommendation thread is to get recommendations you can use. This is a good way to help members make appropriate recommendations. There is a reason that posters are expected to narrow their field down with what they like, and what they have seen. You can simply view whether a person wants fansubs or not as another way to narrow the field.

3. Heck saying its a fansub or not actually helps people figure out where to get said anime. That is being helpful. Not saying you got to give someone a link, but chances are they can find one on their own.

4. This is a good way to be polite to fellow forum members. There is no insinuation involved. The point of being polite to anyone asside from it makeing you feal good is to make them comfortable. When you are being concise, and mindful of other peoples fealings about the subject, or their total ignorance of it you can make their visit better.

5. Hey when someone slips in a fansub reference to a thread that asked for recommendation, and the request has listed off twenty RI series. Yeah that does seem like your promoteing that people fansub. Hey more power to you, but atleast be honest about what you are recommending.

Here are a few examples I would love to see some posters just try to use.

"Hey I notice your into shonen type of anime, and you are really into Naruto. Did you know that Naruto is fansubbed? This is a grey area but if your into downloading anime off the web you can find it through most search engines."

"Hey if you are into fansubbing their is a great new series out named."

"Hey I am watching this series on fansubs, and I had a few questions about it."

I personally cannot see where it is so hard to just make the differentiation between a fansub, and a licensed anime. There are alot of good reasons for people to just come out, and say it.

You guys got me wrong. Though I personally do not fansub, and I think some of the justifications for it are lame. What I am not for is hideing it like we are shooting up in some closet.

Just come right out, and say this is a fansub I am talking about. Why do I feal like I am in some seedy comic book store where we got a dirty little secret going on. Yeah we may be discussing illegal stuff, but you know what unless we are makeing grandiose plans it is not illegal.

Calm down chill out and think about what I am saying. I am asking that in general people get the motivation to have some manners about fansub discussion. I have given a whole slew of good reasons to be specific about what you are talking about. These reasons are it is polite, its less confuseing, it probabally would drive down the fansubbing debate. Since afterall everyone is being straight up honest.

I will say it again I say NAY, and infact I want the fansub discussion, and fansubbed series to be right out there. I would rather it be right out there. I just want people to have some manners while discussing it, and that is not a big thing to ask.

This is going to be my first, last and only post on the subject.

ANN will continue to allow people to discuss unlicensed anime in these forums. The only thing that is not allowed is pointing people in the direction to download fansubs, bootlegs or any other material of questionable ethicality.

Whether you chose to download fansubs or not is your personal decision. For the record, ANN's official policy is that it will not promote fansubs or allow them to be promoted in the forum. That's all, we don't officially think they are bad, nor do we officially think they are good (Individually, ANN's staff have differing opinions on fansubs, but we all agree on many aspects of the whole debate, it's just where the line should be drawn that varies from person to person).

Talking about shows that have not yet been released in North America does not directly promote fansubs, obviously there is a link, but there's a huge difference between saying "X show is good" and saying "X show is good, go here to download it."

So to re-iterate, discussions about anime that have not yet been released in North America is perfectly permissible in these forums. Provided of course the existing rules are respected.

Christopher Macdonald
Editor in Chief
Anime News Network

a difinite Nay

ok i stayed mostly quiet, but this anti-fansub is crap is getting way out of hand.
this is the most ridiculous idea i have ever heard. i could understand if they were providing actual links like Asuki, but to say people shouldn't even be able to see that the series exist? did you even think this through? how do you think series even get buzz? so i suppose you wanna get rid of the season previews also? i mean saying such great things about a series would instantly make us dirty pirates wanna download it and check it out right? what you're saying is more a form of censorship than just a simple change.

if you guys don't like fansubs fine, but please stop getting all fascist about it.

opaquescum wrote:

3. Heck saying its a fansub or not actually helps people figure out where to get said anime. That is being helpful. Not saying you got to give someone a link, but chances are they can find one on their own.

Once again, not licensed in the US doesn't mean fansub. A series may have fansubs available for it, but a series in and of itself isn't a fansub or not a fansub.

I really don't see any problem with the current position by the staff on the issue: discuss whatever anime you want, just don't tell people where to go download illegal stuff.

I don't see any problems with the ANN forum policies. But then again, I can't seem to completely grasp what Zalis116 is trying to say.

From what I figure, ANN is a respectable anime news site, not an amateur fansite where people can gather to pirate anime. The entire purpose of "no fansubs" is to prevent legal trouble from happening due to stupid forum users who're asking for the wrong thing at the wrong place. Considering that, there is no "legal trouble" in having forum users discussing about a series that they have watched through fansubs, which is why it's allowed in the first place. If an article on ANN mentions fansubs, why not? I can talk all I want about killing the annoying little brat next door; as long as I don't actually do it, I won't be going to jail.

opaquescum wrote:

2. Hey this helps people in the recommendation process. If a poster is into fansubs then they might be very interested. Then if a poster is not into fansubs they can ignore it, and move along. The point of a recommendation thread is to get recommendations you can use.

It only takes 3 clicks to find out if it's licensed or not. The answer to whether one should throw themselves into the mix of discussion or recommendations of an illegal nature should take no more than 30 seconds, even if they do have dial-up.

If these people are clueless to what fansubs are, then it'll only enlighten them to read and file through the countless number of topics that discuss the matter. The end result on whether they "succumb to the dark side" will be purely based on their own trains of thought.

Like everyone keeps mentioning, there's a difference between simply saying "I like [fansubbed title]" and "I like [fansubbed title] and think you should obtain it through illegal means."

opaquescum wrote:

Notice I did say moderators, and many forum members. Thats a rather large group.

Seeing as how Nagisa and myself are the two main moderators and the fact that you questioned my recommendation of [a fansubbed title], I believe it's safe to say you mean me when you say:

opaquescum wrote:

Some forum members, and moderators go about their fascination in the most blatant, and quite frankly rude manner possible.

I take high offense to being called blatantly rude for something so simple as mentioning one of my favorite anime series. You could use some tact yourself when making reference to someone only giving his honest and goodwilled opinion.

My problem with your stance and adamant philosophy on constantly filtering each and every topic or recommendation with a tact "I'm not sure how you feel about fansubs, but I'd like to recommend..." or "I'd like to recommend [a fansubbed title], though be warned it's illegal and could make you an addict if you download the rest of it" mentality is that you assume everyone who isn't a watcher of fansubs will become some kind of junky.

I'm confident a majority of the people that browse this site can easily decipher the legality and moral implications of downloading. Peer pressure shouldn't be an issue over the Internet where no one can physically impose or threaten you, should you decide to go against that person's suggestion.

opaquescum wrote:

I really have to ask the question how many people have stopped useing these forums, because of the above conduct. How many potential members took one look at these forums, and said this looks pretty sinister. I am willing to bet more then a few.

More mindless and baseless assumptions. You obviously haven't seen many other anime forums that do much of the same if not more; Anime on DVD, for example, where everything is R1, yet many of the users discuss title beyond the U.S. license.

Again, I doubt you'll find a forum that doesn't mention at least one fansubbed title. If such a manner of "sinister" behavior took place, then there are a lot of underprivelaged fans out there just waiting to discuss anime on a site that doesn't mention a single fansubbed title or doesn't label each topic with that tag designating it as "subject material of an illegal nature."

Regardless of your request for "manners and decorum" in segrating all of our knowledge for the sake of not creating another "monster" (oops, did I just make reference to something illegal?) of fansubs, I appreciate your intentions but find it silly that we should have to do so when it's such a simple thing to do already without the aid of everyone else.

I think you're just making this harder than it should be, while at the same time causing me to go overboard with your miscommunication and excessive want for something that isn't as big a problem as you assume.

By the way, I hope none of you took me that serious on that "locking every thread" deal. It was only to make a point of how influential and established fansubs are in the anime community Anime catgrin + sweatdrop

.

Tony K. wrote:

By the way, I hope none of you took me that serious on that "locking every thread" deal. It was only to make a point of how influential and established fansubs are in the anime community Anime catgrin + sweatdrop

.

Not at all. Sarcasm is easily detectable. Wink

What I don't understand about this whole silly argument is why some people use the words "unlicensed R1" synonymously with "fansubbed." There are posters in this forum not living in North America, correct? So what's the difference between talking about a title available on R2 in Japan and one available on R1 in the States, if neither are available in Ireland? Or vice versa: I know there are some anime titles available in France and Spain that remain unlicensed in North America; is it now unethical to discuss admiration for those titles? This by itself makes the legality of discussing non-R1 titles a moot point.

Perhaps the people attacking the moderators should take an instrospective look at themselves and wonder why their mind jumps immediately to illegal activities whenever a recommendation for an unlicensed title comes up. When Tony recommended Monster in the other thread, he didn't mention "fansub" in the first place. Similarly, I recommend that people watch Mind Game and Arete Hime all the time; neither of those are licensed titles. But you know what? I have the R2 DVDs for both of them. When I recommend that people see that stuff, I can care less how they see it; through fansubs or boots or legits DVDs or whatever. The ethics code of the people I recommend to is for them to decide, not me. I just want to gush for a little bit about animation I love to watch and want other people to see. The mods should get that same right.

I'll say nay as well.

Last edited by Vortextk on Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total

I notice how Zalis posts. Trying to atleast be open.... It's kind of on the lines of how I think, but rarely post because this is what happens.

First, hardly any discussion came about from his original post.

Second, for all the people that hate pirating and the lack of "morals" that go along with that, pirates seem to enjoy the opposites company just fine. How many times do I have to see the same people's heads bash against their keyboards as they innundate a thread with how horrible the pirates are? Saying "fansub" does not mean we are discussing legality and ethics. If I believe derailing a topic in such a way a punishable offense and get it put that way, are you breaking that law?

Third, pirating anime will not stop it's production. Never will 100% of the people watching an anime, get it solely through pirating.(The viewers from TV, the people that download/buy, the people that don't know how to download, the people that hate downloading) So don't give me a stupid "if" statement about anime or music or movies stopping because it's all pirated.(I work in a movie rental store, I can tell you in a decent sized town we make 16-20k a week just off of rentals and some purchases, with sister stores only 20 minutes away north and south. Not everyone pirates.)

Fourth, the law does not = wrong. The law just means consequences if you do so. Wrong comes from your own moral compass and truth be told, if I really wanted to talk about a cause it wouldn't be the piracy of ANYTHING. What a stupid trivial subject if you look outside of your own little sphere.

....Apologies to Zalis. I can only hope that atleast one person who doesn't immediately read my argument and want to slash my throat because I downloaded an anime, can see that other people see things differently. And when dealing with "copyright", "licensing" and the "internet", a white/black area does not exist.

------
As to the topic at hand, I find ANN does things as best as it can. Perhaps, if R1 distributors and Japanese companies had no problems with it(I can't think of a world where they wouldn't), we could freely talk about where to download anime and how to burn dvds etc etc. But all in all, it just doesn't matter. Freedom of the press, right? Take your journalism to the edge of the law, but don't cross it, and you are likely at your peak.

No matter the publicity a thread might give an at the moment fansub only show, it won't change much of anything. ANN could shut down tonight and I doubt pirating habits would change. And that's what counts. If the discussion does not alter people's decisions, it doesn't matter. Yes, the buzz about Haruhi has gotten me to download it. But I can also point out you who never download and those, as stated above, that adopted ANN's more legal outlook and decided to stop pirating. Maybe only getting an occasional fansub of a show that never gets licensed.

If ANN decided to "up the ante" with all forms of fansub, then it would only serve to gut itself on that knife. If I can't freely discuss something(and only that something, not the means in which I got it or anything else), I need not discuss it and will surely move onto something else.

The perfectly legal high road may be to censor absolutely everything, but it sure leaves for a dull place.

Cloe wrote:

When I recommend that people see that stuff, I can care less how they see it; through fansubs or boots or legits DVDs or whatever. The ethics code of the people I recommend to is for them to decide, not me. I just want to gush for a little bit about animation I love to watch and want other people to see. The mods should get that same right.

I fully agree, and love ANN's forums for that reason. I think any person would want to spread the joy to others of something their passionate about. My favorite band hasn't released a CD in almost 4 years, but have been playing new songs live - am I not aloud to be hyped up about them since not everybody has the means to hear them?

Opaquescum's point about using tact is well taken, but could be made for any topic on the boards. I think Teh Rules pretty much sum it up:

Teh Rules wrote:

3) Discussions should carry some measure of intelligence to them. Consider if what you are writing is relevant or important to others...

Translation: use your brain, and don't be a jackass.

It's plainly posted there for all to see, and I don't think it needs any further clarification. If you're searching for dictator-filtered discussion, there are plenty of other BBS' on the net that will big-brother the hell out of your first ammendment rights. Please, be my guest to have fun there, and enforce your preferences on the rest of their members. Laughing

[OT] ok ok, I have to say this because its really really bothering me. opaquescum, the word you want isn't "feal" its "feel" please please please

[back On Topic]I'll second, third, fourth (I lost track a while ago) the idea that ANN has just about the best stance possible. To combine what I've seen everyone say that I agree with:

ANN is a news entity, they do what they can to get the news out; the forum is also a part of that entity and is designed as just that, a forum, to discuss ideas. Discussion on the forum is designed around the shows: their content, characters, release info, interpretations, understanding etc etc. Downloading fansubs is illegal, so while giving a link to an illegal site MAY not actually be illegal (I don't know about that one), it is a safer and just plain smarter choice for ANN to keep those links out (plus they could alienate those sponsers! nuuuu ANN don't go bankrupt! I don't have another complete list of my anime Wink

).

One problem with your idea opaquescum (the one where people have to mention whether or not it's a fansub show or not) is that doing that is not only cumbersome, but counterproductive. People shouldn't get so caught up in the discussions as to how the person watches the show, the discussion is almost always about the SHOW, not the methods of viewing it. Essentially, it's like segregation or discrimination among shows, the number of formats the show is available in means just about as much to the content of a show as a book's cover does to the novel.

[semi-OT] You know what just occured to me as I was reading this? I daresay it's brilliant even if I wasn't the first one to think of it: a sticky that summarizes the illegal fansub debate with links to information about things like the Berne Union. I know I for one don't enjoy seeing people repeatedly and ignorantly (come ON, the facts were posted on the SAME page people denied them) make claims about how legal they are.

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