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The Tragic Girl in Anime


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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5861
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:51 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:

It makes sense in that portraying an extremely-unlikely scenario tends to strain one's suspension of disbelief to the breaking point


Well, I am certain all the fathers and mothers who are staying at Ronald McDonald houses across the United States wish what you said was true.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4603
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:56 am Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
Top Gun wrote:
I almost feel like portraying it as something that could feasibly happen does a massive disservice by potentially dissuading people from giving blood.

Why would people be afraid to give blood? Didn't she get it from receiving blood?

True, but there's already enough FUD out there involving giving blood or being an organ donor (just see the FAQs the Red Cross makes you sit there and read before giving) that I could see people making that illogical leap. Regardless, I think it's a fundamentally weak plot point.

TarsTarkas wrote:
Well, I am certain all the fathers and mothers who are staying at Ronald McDonald houses across the United States wish what you said was true.

I wasn't aware that all of the fathers and mothers staying at Ronald McDonald houses had children who had somehow managed to contract AIDS via blood transfusion in the year 2013. Please let's avoid the straw men here.
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Beatdigga



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 4407
Location: New York
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:01 pm Reply with quote
There's a feeling of genuine tragedy, and then there's SAO where it becomes farcical. I remember the only thing I thought of that entire arc was "Everyone has AIDS!" from Team America. They overdid it and it was hackneyed.
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Alabaster Spectrum



Joined: 02 Sep 2015
Posts: 528
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:28 pm Reply with quote
Ever since watching Clannad and being regaled with stories of what a mastercraft work it was supposed to be and just not seeing it at all I've grown to rather loathe this trope over the years. To me it is just emblematic of lazy emotionally manipulative writing that is like a fast track to instant critical acclaim within the anime community but to me is just done to death and rarely works at all. Usually I don't even care about your average dying girl trope in anime because they don't bother to give me a reason to get attached to them other than they might be kind of cute before they start wasting away and suffering.

Then usually the actual dying bit is so hamfisted and weepy that it'd arguably be called gauche by even the most ardent chick flick supporter and not to mention often drawn out for the maximum illicitation of tears. I've never understood watching something because you feel it's going to make you cry or feel like shit for a character even though I know it's kind of a staple of Live Action Asian drama. I mean I'm open to it and it has happened in things before, but it's not a reason to watch a show for me or lavish it with praise because it depicted the plight of a side dying girl suffering from some mystery disease which seems like is just the rule. Anyway the fact that this is one of the most sought after kinds of story nowadays tells me all the more that I'm not really cut out for this whole modern anime thing. Sorry but I just didn't get into anime for it too try to make me feel like shit and drag out story arcs for the purposes of some sort of emotional payoff that doesn't work on me anyway when I can usually see it coming a mile away and is often handled with the grace of a hammer blow to the back of the head saying "YOU CRY NOW!!!" Rolling Eyes
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Showsni



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 641
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:02 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
It makes sense in that portraying an extremely-unlikely scenario tends to strain one's suspension of disbelief to the breaking point, which at least for me personally just makes me feel like I'm being blatantly emotionally manipulated, instead of being allowed to organically empathize with the characters in the story. In SAO's case, I am aware of the real-life incident in Japan that most likely inspired that arc, but that was literally a one-in-a-million shot, and I almost feel like portraying it as something that could feasibly happen does a massive disservice by potentially dissuading people from giving blood.


Admittedly it's something with a very negligible chance of happening in this day and age - the NHS's website states that no one has been infected with a virus from a blood transfusion since 2005, and no one has been infected with bacteria from a blood transfusion since 2009. If Yuuki's mother was infected 14 years before 2022 as another poster mentioned (i.e. in 2008) that is a rather small likelihood. Still, it's certainly been a fairly common issue in the past. Quoting statistics I found about the UK: "Between 1970 and 1991, contaminated NHS blood products caused an estimated 32,718 people to be infected with hepatitis C virus in the course of medical treatment. Between 1978 and 1985, more than 1,500 haemophiliacs were infected with the HIV virus in a similar way, most of whom were co-infected with hepatitis C as well." (A family friend of ours from church is actually one of those haemophilia sufferers who was infected with hepatitis C from a tainted blood sample). If SAO was set in the 90s it would be very believable state of affairs. And occasionally mistakes are made. It's an unlikely scenario, but not an impossible one.

Zin5ki wrote:
Part of my initial exposure to anime involved a marathon viewing of Kanon. Makoto's arc simply entranced me, rod, line and sinker.


I haven't seen the anime, though I've played the game; Makoto's arc was a real gut wrencher. I actually cried whilst playing it...
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Beatdigga



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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Location: New York
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:09 pm Reply with quote
And making all these horrible coincidences together screams of desperation. I should not react to the tragedy in story by going "YOU HAVE AIDS (yes you have AIDS), not HIV but full blown AIDS..."
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:05 pm Reply with quote
Alabaster Spectrum wrote:
Ever since watching Clannad and being regaled with stories of what a mastercraft work it was supposed to be and just not seeing it at all I've grown to rather loathe this trope over the years. To me it is just emblematic of lazy emotionally manipulative writing that is like a fast track to instant critical acclaim within the anime community but to me is just done to death and rarely works at all. Usually I don't even care about your average dying girl trope in anime because they don't bother to give me a reason to get attached to them other than they might be kind of cute before they start wasting away and suffering.

Then usually the actual dying bit is so hamfisted and weepy that it'd arguably be called gauche by even the most ardent chick flick supporter and not to mention often drawn out for the maximum illicitation of tears. I've never understood watching something because you feel it's going to make you cry or feel like shit for a character even though I know it's kind of a staple of Live Action Asian drama. I mean I'm open to it and it has happened in things before, but it's not a reason to watch a show for me or lavish it with praise because it depicted the plight of a side dying girl suffering from some mystery disease which seems like is just the rule. Anyway the fact that this is one of the most sought after kinds of story nowadays tells me all the more that I'm not really cut out for this whole modern anime thing. Sorry but I just didn't get into anime for it too try to make me feel like shit and drag out story arcs for the purposes of some sort of emotional payoff that doesn't work on me anyway when I can usually see it coming a mile away and is often handled with the grace of a hammer blow to the back of the head saying "YOU CRY NOW!!!" Rolling Eyes

Clearly this particular type of anime is not for you, but fortunately it's easy enough to avoid. Though these kind of series are fairly popular, they actually don't come up very often; you'd have to be generously broad in the application of the label to say that it even averages one per season.

And I'll absolutely agree that some of them are exactly as you describe and don't work for me, either, because of that. The best of them, though, do some truly marvelous jobs.
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scarletrhodelia



Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 34
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:56 am Reply with quote
I was hoping that this article would ask “why?” Why does this trope exist, and why is it so popular? What does it say that we have so many shows in which a girl has to be sacrificed to allow the (usual) male lead to ... do what? Play the piano better? Since all mentioned except anohana (which was an original anime later serialized in a josei magazine) are shounen or seinen, the target audience is clearly male. This is a sexist trope, a kind of tragedy porn that asks the viewer to wallow in a female character’s death which works for the benefit of the male character. This trope is barely a step up from “Women in Refrigerators.”
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5861
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:51 pm Reply with quote
scarletrhodelia wrote:
I was hoping that this article would ask “why?” Why does this trope exist, and why is it so popular? What does it say that we have so many shows in which a girl has to be sacrificed to allow the (usual) male lead to ... do what? Play the piano better? Since all mentioned except anohana (which was an original anime later serialized in a josei magazine) are shounen or seinen, the target audience is clearly male. This is a sexist trope, a kind of tragedy porn that asks the viewer to wallow in a female character’s death which works for the benefit of the male character. This trope is barely a step up from “Women in Refrigerators.”


It is a trope that plays to the intended audience. Personally, wallowing in anyone's impending death as a drama piece is not my cup of tea.

That said, this is a drama piece. Must the dying person be a insect alien from Hive 9, whose human friends are forever changed equally by its impending death, because we are not allowed to use human beings.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:36 pm Reply with quote
scarletrhodelia wrote:
I was hoping that this article would ask “why?” Why does this trope exist, and why is it so popular? What does it say that we have so many shows in which a girl has to be sacrificed to allow the (usual) male lead to ... do what? Play the piano better? Since all mentioned except anohana (which was an original anime later serialized in a josei magazine) are shounen or seinen, the target audience is clearly male. This is a sexist trope, a kind of tragedy porn that asks the viewer to wallow in a female character’s death which works for the benefit of the male character. This trope is barely a step up from “Women in Refrigerators.”

Analyzing whether or not something is sexist is a minefield that you will not ever see me treading into again if I have a choice about it. Past experience has made it quite clear that I don't have a good understanding at all of what is and is not considered sexist for me to safely commentate on it.

Hence I'm not going to hazard a guess about whether or not sexism is at the root of this trope. However, I do think that there's a general perception that a female character (especially a young one) dying under such circumstances is more tragic than a male character dying under the same circumstances, and that's something that goes way, way beyond just anime or even Japanese culture.

As for the Women in Refrigerators business, if you want to see a classic example of that in anime, just look at how Storm was limited in the X-Men anime.
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HuuskerDu



Joined: 29 Feb 2016
Posts: 93
Location: USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:28 pm Reply with quote
invalidname wrote:
I do quite like how this trope is handled much differently in ef - a tale of melodies. This is one of those rare male examples, where the accomplished violinist (hey, that trope too!) Kuze is dying of a conveniently obscure terminal illness and has decided to "settle his accounts" before dying, therefore having no time for the affections of manic pixie schoolgirl Mizuki, who is fairly obsessed with him.

I think that ef - a tale of memories and its sequel ef - a tale of melodies (collectively called ef - a tale of the two) are the hidden gems of the early SHAFT era. On the surface they seem like totally depressing and tragic romantic tales. All five couples experience death and/or major loss on some level.

What makes ef unique is its explicitly Christian setting. (The story takes place in a parochial high school, a church, and an orphanage.) Because of this, although each couples' arc at first seems to be a tragedy, ef is fundamentally an optimistic story. spoiler[None of the tragedies are prevented or averted. Even so, all the couples ultimately have happy endings.]
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