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This Week in Games - Metroid's Saddest Birthday Ever


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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5996
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:02 pm Reply with quote
^ Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon, was anything but solid but not too many people myself included will hold that slip up against them.
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Themaster20000



Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 863
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:10 pm Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:
Panoptican wrote:
I only played a bit of Other M at a friend's place, but the biggest problem with the game seemed to be the writing and characterization. From what I read that was all handled by Nintendo. Otherwise Team Ninja made a pretty decent game..


The only thing "wrong" with the writing in Other M is some people think their head canon means more than what official sources said about Samus as a character. Nothing in the game should come as a surprise to anyone if they've been following the franchise since the beginning, especially if they've read the manga which Zero Mission, Fusion, and Other M are all based on. I imagine they overlap a lot with the kind of people who complain about the zero-suit as well.

Entitled fans are common problem in the industry though. More and more people want games to be owned by the community rather than a company. Whether it's Lets Players, fan games, or something like all the people who got pissed off at Nintendo for not doing a Robin Williams tribute when he passed away, based solely on the fact he named his daughter Zelda as if that somehow bequeaths entitlement. People getting upset at a company over things like this is extremely petty, and shutting down a fan game is not going to hurt them in the slightest bit. People said the same thing about their YouTube policies and nothing ended up happening after that.

-Stuart Smith


How about that traitor plot that goes on for about half the game and is just dropped and forgotten? To say that the game had no writing issues at all is quite a joke,even if you ignore how they handled the characterization of Samus. The writing was the least of that game's problem though.
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NeoStrayCat



Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 614
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:38 pm Reply with quote
While I get the point that Nintendo being Nintendo at the Metroid fiasco, I can understand the pains some are going through, what wasn't mentioned in the article although this too was recent that Nintendo also went through the Internet Archive and shut down the place where you could have read back issues of Nintendo Power. So...yeah...>.>

Also, yeah, keep the text-over-picture thing, since it was an X-Button staple, it should continue, lol. Also, it would have been awesome if the author of the article name really was "Justin Bailey", but nope, it was a close enough one, lol. (Just one letter away from a retro password, lol. And considering Metroid news in this article), but yeah, lets welcome Dustin here with open arms.
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toddc



Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 164
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:03 am Reply with quote
I fully endorse keeping the mouse-over captions, as long as Dustin's comfortable with them.

They might be an X Button thing, but I sure wasn't the first one to use jokey title tags. They could be seen on lots of websites during the last decade, most memorably UK Resistance and The Sardius Experience.


Last edited by toddc on Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:16 am Reply with quote
bj_waters wrote:
It's not just insisting on some kind of "head canon," but picking out genuine flaws like the monotonous delivery and poor translation.


A bad localization is an issue with the localization, which I feel should not be held against the actual game itself. That's why theres an Other M Undub available along with other poorly translated games like Arc Rise Fantasia.

Top Gun wrote:
So seeing a character who is pretty much the ur-example of strong, empowered female game protagonists reduced to a (literal!) sniveling child is just a "head canon" issue? Or how about said character not using equipment she already has access to for no other reason than a man (who isn't even her commander anymore!) not giving her permission yet?


It's head canon if you built her up to be the "ur-example of strong, empowered female game protagonists" when she never said she was. If you didn't play the game I guess I can understand, but it's established Adam only let Samus stay on the ship if she followed his orders like his troops since she had no jurisdiction being there in the first place. Not to mention she would have done it anyway given their history together and him being her mentor. That's like getting mad Luke listened to Obi-Wan and turned off his targeting computer.

The games don't need the manga to tell a narrative but the issue is people don't like the narrative that was told. People don't not like Samus cries or having PTSD because it comes out of nowhere (it's the first thing you see in the game) they don't like it because "That's not my Samus". Which always seemed weird because it was established she cries and has PTSD years before Other M even came out, so it shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone and no one complained about it back then.

Themaster20000 wrote:
How about that traitor plot that goes on for about half the game and is just dropped and forgotten?


It was dropped because once he died his role in the story was over. He wasn't the main antagonist of the game. I don't really understand this complaint.

-Stuart Smith
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MrBonk



Joined: 23 Jan 2015
Posts: 192
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:30 am Reply with quote
Quote:
they're straight-up bad on the old stuff.


OK, sorry to burst your bubble here. But the new hardware not existing, WOULD NOT stop these games from running like horse shit. They have ALWAYS run like horse shit, people like you either don't care to notice. Or are too ignorant to notice.

Newsflash, tons of games on vanilla PS4 and XBO run like horse shit without the new hardware even being revealed yet. Pretty much every game on Unity, regardless of 3D or 2D type of game, runs like horse shit for example. Weeding out Unity, developers often shoot for prettier shading (Different than better IQ) than performance. New hardware isn't going to magically change that. Games on Vanilla hardware will run as well as they always have. Which is to say, generally inconsistent and in many cases like horse poop.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4603
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:38 am Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:
It's head canon if you built her up to be the "ur-example of strong, empowered female game protagonists" when she never said she was. If you didn't play the game I guess I can understand, but it's established Adam only let Samus stay on the ship if she followed his orders like his troops since she had no jurisdiction being there in the first place. Not to mention she would have done it anyway given their history together and him being her mentor. That's like getting mad Luke listened to Obi-Wan and turned off his targeting computer.

I'm not talking about whatever Samus said about herself (which would be rather silly, given how many games passed until she was given any dialogue!), but how she has been viewed by the entire gaming community over the course of three decades. It's been beaten to death by this point, but that moment in the original game when Samus removes her helmet and reveals her identity is a truly seminal one in the history of gaming: there flat-out hadn't been a female protagonist in a game like that before. Throughout every game since she's carried herself as a strong, confident warrior who was capable of meeting every challenge thrown at her, and that's what fans around the world grew to love about her. So yes, throwing that entire history away with a badly-misguided narrative choice is a big deal.

And while I could potentially buy Samus putting herself under her former mentor's orders, the game extends this to an utterly-illogical degree with Adam not allowing Samus to use particular suit functions until he says so...even when this puts Samus directly in harm's way. I know for a fact that Adam only gives Samus authorization to use the Varia suit after she's already passed through several superheated rooms that damage the player over time. What sort of insane person would willingly go through that, and what sort of sadistic commander would allow them to do so? Obviously it exists as a gameplay element, but dear lord it blends so horribly with the narrative that it completely obliterates suspension of disbelief. Tired though they may be, there are at least a half-dozen other means of accomplishing the same gameplay mechanic without coming across as a thoroughly-incompetent writer.

Quote:
The games don't need the manga to tell a narrative but the issue is people don't like the narrative that was told. People don't not like Samus cries or having PTSD because it comes out of nowhere (it's the first thing you see in the game) they don't like it because "That's not my Samus". Which always seemed weird because it was established she cries and has PTSD years before Other M even came out, so it shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone and no one complained about it back then.

As I noted above, the manga is an ancillary work to the actual game franchise, and Samus having PTSD was absolutely NOT established anywhere in the games prior to Other M. Obviously that sort of storytelling was outside the purview of an NES-era title, but if it was intended as part of Samus's character, it could have potentially come up by Super Metroid, and it most definitely would/should have been incorporated into Zero Mission or Fusion. Except...it never was, and for good reason. Even if you were to discount the Prime games (and I'm not sure why you would), Samus has already kicked Ridley's ass twice before Other M. Why would meeting him a third time make her do anything other than roll her eyes and think, "Man, this bastard will not stay dead will he?" Most people who played the games wouldn't have had any exposure to that manga, but even if they had, I understand that the series in question sees Samus overcome her PTSD by the end of it and basically taunt Ridley to his face. So again, Other M has her act completely out-of-character even by the established extra backstory.
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BodaciousSpacePirate
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Joined: 17 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:36 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
So seeing a character who is pretty much the ur-example of strong, empowered female game protagonists reduced to a (literal!) sniveling child is just a "head canon" issue?


The faster you beat the original Metroid, the less clothing she'd be wearing at the end. At what point did you convince yourself that the Metroid franchise was some paragon of female media empowerment? I'll never understand why Samus Aran and Lara Croft got to be the poster-girls for female empowerment instead of Carmen Sandiego or Claire Redfield.
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Themaster20000



Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 863
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:44 pm Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:

It was dropped because once he died his role in the story was over. He wasn't the main antagonist of the game. I don't really understand this complaint.

-Stuart Smith


Because they spend half the game on this nonsense plot and the game decides to just drop it. Samus and the others don't know he was the traitor until near the end when the game decides to bring it up again for some reason,despite the game forgetting about that whole plot point. The never go into his motive,character,or do anything with it so why did they even bother with it?
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5996
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:14 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
. It's been beaten to death by this point, but that moment in the original game when Samus removes her helmet and reveals her identity is a truly seminal one in the history of gaming: there flat-out hadn't been a female protagonist in a game like that before. Throughout every game since she's carried herself as a strong, confident warrior who was capable of meeting every challenge thrown at her, and that's what fans around the world grew to love about her. So yes, throwing that entire history away with a badly-misguided narrative choice is a big deal.


What good is history if it doesn't have a story that explains it? Which was a big problem with a lot of the games that came out during the 8 and 16 bit eras.


Top Gun wrote:
.
As I noted above, the manga is an ancillary work to the actual game franchise, and Samus having PTSD was absolutely NOT established anywhere in the games prior to Other M. Obviously that sort of storytelling was outside the purview of an NES-era title, but if it was intended as part of Samus's character, it could have potentially come up by Super Metroid, and it most definitely would/should have been incorporated into Zero Mission or Fusion. Except...it never was, and for good reason.


Which reason was that besides the designers being solely focused on gameplay and level design and not enough on deep storytelling or characterization? Which isn't something I'd call "good reason".
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4603
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:54 pm Reply with quote
BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:
The faster you beat the original Metroid, the less clothing she'd be wearing at the end. At what point did you convince yourself that the Metroid franchise was some paragon of female media empowerment? I'll never understand why Samus Aran and Lara Croft got to be the poster-girls for female empowerment instead of Carmen Sandiego or Claire Redfield.

There's no denying that the original engaged in a little 8-bit cheesecake, but the games themselves were absolutely empowering to Samus as a character and did nothing to demean her in any way. (Then came Team Ninja...) I'm not trying to say she's some sort of absolute feminist icon, but there's no denying that her character was hugely influential. Even in the case of Lara Croft, once you get past her questionable polygonal proportions, the actual gameplay treats her as a powerful and capable protagonist. Her various portrayals have certainly had issues over the years, but at her core I think she comes across as much more affirming than degrading. At the end of the day, there's nothing stating that a female character can't be both sexy and well-written. I don't know, I guess I always felt as though sex-positive feminists made a far stronger case than the likes of Dvorkin.

(Fun fact: The original Tomb Raider engendered a flood of schoolyard rumors about a "Nude Raider" code that horny teenage gamers tried and failed to track down; even a few gaming magazines got in on the fun with April Fools' columns claiming it was legit. The original series developer Core Design went so far as to add a code in Tomb Raider 2 that was supposedly the holy grail...except entering it in made Lara explode into a thousand pieces instead. Very Happy)

BadNewsBlues wrote:

What good is history if it doesn't have a story that explains it? Which was a big problem with a lot of the games that came out during the 8 and 16 bit eras.

Why was any such story necessary? The mere fact that Samus was a female protagonist in an action game was more than groundbreaking enough at that time. Also, much of what makes the best games of that era so timeless is that they didn't get bogged down in trying to deliver deep, engrossing stories, and instead focused on their core gameplay mechanics. You're a bounty hunter exploring a labyrinthine world, trying to take down an evil alien menace...what more do you need?

Quote:

Which reason was that besides the designers being solely focused on gameplay and level design and not enough on deep storytelling or characterization? Which isn't something I'd call "good reason".

Shockingly enough, most good games historically didn't require "deep storytelling or characterization" because...gasp...they're games. It's right there in the name of the medium: game development should be above all else focused on the fundamental mechanics and design of the experience. A quality story and writing can certainly elevate a good game to a great one, but unless the basic gameplay is solid you might as well just be watching a movie.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5996
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:09 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
Why was any such story necessary?


Because when the only thing people can seem to remember about you as a character is that you were revealed as a female at the end of your game when they all thought you were a male (alongside constantly having to escape from doomed planets and repeatedly fighting Space Dragons) it kind of does nothing to flesh you out as a character or why anyone should care about you.

Top Gun wrote:
Also, much of what makes the best games of that era so timeless is that they didn't get bogged down in trying to deliver deep, engrossing stories, and instead focused on their core gameplay mechanics.


And yet games like Chrono Trigger and Mother 2 which are considered among the best of that era are fondly remembered by fans for their storytelling and characters more than their gameplay mechanics. Simply having deep engrossing stories and character arcs doesn't bog down your game it's when those aren't utilized or written properly is when it can. The same as terrible controls, absurd gameplay mechanics, & unfair or fake difficulty can bog a game down.

Top Gun wrote:

You're a bounty hunter exploring a labyrinthine world, trying to take down an evil alien menace...what more do you need?


Ummm a story that better explains why you're there and why we should care about about your main character besides the fact she's a female doing things typically associated with male characters?

Top Gun wrote:
Shockingly enough, most good games historically didn't require "deep storytelling or characterization" because...gasp...they're games. It's right there in the name of the medium: game development should be above all else focused on the fundamental mechanics and design of the experience.


This logic falls apart when you apply it to other mediums though you can't read a book or watch a movie/tv show and laud it for it's quality storytelling and deep characters (or damn it should it lack any of those elements). Then play a video game and insist it doesn't need those two elements to be good this leads to double standard.
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:37 pm Reply with quote
BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:
The faster you beat the original Metroid, the less clothing she'd be wearing at the end. At what point did you convince yourself that the Metroid franchise was some paragon of female media empowerment? I'll never understand why Samus Aran and Lara Croft got to be the poster-girls for female empowerment instead of Carmen Sandiego or Claire Redfield.


Carmen Sandiego is a villain, and Claire is already considered a fan favorite. But there's nothing wrong with Samus or Lara Coft either. Old badass Lara Croft that shoots dinosaurs, anyway. Not Katniss ripoff Lara. There's nothing that says a woman can't be sexy and strong at the same time.

The true irony is nobody cared about Samus Aran as a character until the 2000s. Once we got her back story manga form which was later shown in the zero mission ending cutscene and newer games, she became hugely popular. Tons more fan art was made of her, she got tons of merchandise , and not one but two versions of herself in the newest Smash Brothers. People who liked Samus when she was just a silent protagonist are in the minority. Despite all the hatred Other M gets on the internet, Nintendo is still pushing out merchandise for it like that new zero suit figma.
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TC-man



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 118
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:45 am Reply with quote
bj_waters wrote:
I kind of wish they had reached out to the AM2R guy and tried to work something out so that it could be put on official Nintendo systems instead of just rolling out the DMCA like they did.


I totally agree on this with you. I too wish Nintendo could have talked to the creator of AM2R, then hire and ask him to port AM2R to the Wii U and/or 3DS. Perhaps even do a HD remake of a "Metroid All Stars" (a similar remake of "Super Mario All Stars") to celebrate the 30th birthday of Metroid.

I am totally in for a total reboot of the Metroid franchise, since Other M screws things up for many Metroid fans. Furthermore, I am still waiting for an anime project where different anime studios make their own version of Metroid animated film, just like what happened to Animatrix, Halo and Batman.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:50 pm Reply with quote
^ You'll be waiting for long time for that to happen as Metroid is nowhere near as popular as those other IPs.
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