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@ Harleyquin - thank you for that information, very useful. I completely accept what you say about the proper meaning of Nagi's name as it relates to the object he is, but I can't help thinking his excitable character was created with an eye to how it would comedically contrast with one of the meanings of nagi: calm. That, of course, is assuming my Google Translator was correct and nagi can be translated as calm.

Nagi's name wasn't written in Kanji in the paper of signatures, but it is properly written in the show's credits. Failure to look up the Kanji from official episode subtitles for whatever meaning it has is human error. Human error compounded by entering only the Romanized spelling of his (and all other Tsukumogami names) into a machine crutch when Japanese as a language assigns the same reading to more than one verb, all of which are written differently if they have Kanji assigned to them.

The line I didn't get in the episode was that they said that adults avoided her because they picked up that children were uneasy with her. That seems kind of dumb, are there really adults including teachers that act like that? A little looked like overkill since they also mentioned that humans might want to use her, so that should be the reason she could be isolated.

Have we seen these humans that might be a threat? It kind of looked like in the first episode that the supernatural entities are not that super-secret existence, there were random police, so how much would other people know? If those things are widely known to exist, is it that weird that someone can claim to see or sense such things?

Also kind of looks like a lot of "trust me, we do see her like a family, don't even question it", and was kind of forced into a situation that they were the only ones that she could connect to.

DuskyPredator wrote:

The line I didn't get in the episode was that they said that adults avoided her because they picked up that children were uneasy with her. That seems kind of dumb, are there really adults including teachers that act like that?

Original lines:
付喪神の気配に敏感な子供達は、ぼたんを避け
その様子を見て大人達もまた気味悪がっていたわ。

The subtitles gives these as:
"Children, who naturally possess a strong sixth sense, avoided her."
"Adults, seeing how their children acted, also gave her a wide berth."

I don't like how the subtitles did this, since comments like the quoted post are sure to follow because the meaning has been twisted.

If I were to do it, I would have used:

"Some children, who were sensitive to the presence of Tsukumogami, would avoid Botan. Adults who noticed how these children reacted would find Botan creepy."

The above is a very literal translation. Those who argue against it should remember what Botan's kindergarden teacher told Haori, that she found Botan to have an unapproachable aura. She's also noticed how other children would feel frightened when around Botan during one of her "staring periods". This doesn't mean all adults would avoid Botan, since being creepy doesn't automatically lead to keeping distance even though it's the natural reaction to such a feeling.

As for the first episode, the police are called in but quickly turn to the Saenome as this is their field of expertise. The police are aware of the Saenome as explained in the first episode, but they don't ask many questions and just leave the job to them. The general public is unaware of the general existence of Tsukumogami, even the Six can pass off as humans because of their appearance whereas some of their more extreme peers are clearly not human.

This is explicitly stated by Kunado Zouhei in the first episode, but it appears most casual viewers didn't really bother about this. It should be noted all of the battles that have taken place are away from the public gaze, while any murders undertaken by rogue Tsukumogami leave no survivors and no witnesses.

Botan is being watched by all Marebito, both those with corporeal bodies because of their manifestation and those who are still spirits and yet to inhabit a vessel. It is the latter which creeps out sensitive children, since those cannot be seen yet still have a supernatural presence. Marebito with vessels are Tsukumogami in this franchise, those without are still visitors who can observe their surroundings mostly undetected.

Marebito were given a definition right at the very start of episode one, so it's more correct to say it's Marebito who are constantly observing Botan, just that some of these Marebito have already become Tsukumogami due to their possession of objects and acquisition of a corporeal form.

As for value imposition onto a work of fiction, this isn't the first time it's been noted in this thread and it's none of my business. Botan's an orphan who has been left with just Six Tsukumogami who have been tasked by her grandfather to watch over her. Hyouma didn't know about this and remained suspicious of them, hence the question to Haori about whether or not they were intending to use her.

Haori laughed it off and told Hyouma she felt insulted, but he's not obliged to take her word at face value. It's only at the end of the episode that he feels she was telling the truth, which does not seem to convince the most sceptical of viewers. Like I said, not my business. Up to viewers to either accept what Hyouma has seen or move on to something else.

I am allowed to be a sceptical viewer. Quite often I can be very immersed in the story and world of a show, so I am actually kind of annoyed that I am having trouble with certain hang-ups. I have also consumed several media projects before which do inspire focusing on the details.

And a personal history as the "weird kid", and some experience as an adult instructor of a youth group that included special needs children. I am going to react to claims of a kid apparently so weird to other kids that even adults kept their distance. Is it a Japan thing?

Harleyquin wrote:

As for the first episode, the police are called in but quickly turn to the Saenome as this is their field of expertise. The police are aware of the Saenome as explained in the first episode, but they don't ask many questions and just leave the job to them. The general public is unaware of the general existence of Tsukumogami, even the Six can pass off as humans because of their appearance whereas some of their more extreme peers are clearly not human. This is explicitly stated by Kunado Zouhei in the first episode, but it appears most casual viewers didn't really bother about this. It should be noted all of the battles that have taken place are away from the public gaze, while any murders undertaken by rogue Tsukumogami leave no survivors and no witnesses.

I get all of that, and I don't really get the implication that I must be a casual viewer that didn't bother with these facts. But I am looking back that in this setting you must have people that do run into these supernatural entities, so much that police know that there are specialists for dealing with them. And although some can play the part of a human well, as you said there are some that would have a much tougher job. Considering real world people focus on anything that could be perceived as mystical, there must be people who can credibly say that they saw giants walking around, or even the strange deaths that point to something mystical. Are the random cops forbidden from sharing that they saw actual magic?

Does someone cover up that two teenagers got skewered in the middle of a public park?

Maybe not in Australia, but it's quite common in Asia for adults to find the odd kid who doesn't fit in creepy and encourage their offspring not to mix with said odd kid. Any child in Asia who tried the "Sixth Sense" routine is going to be ostracised very quickly by everyone else.

Try going round saying you saw a Giant impale someone in a carpark. My first reaction to this would be to call the police complaining I see a mental patient loose from the asylum who might be a danger to public health and safety. Even if I did believe the story and be a ghoul and go to said car park, if I don't see the Giant and just an impaled corpse I'm going to call the police to report a dead body. That is after all the natural reaction in the 21st century world we live in, rather than looking for mystical explanations to what can be explained by science. As for the police, their job in Japan is to maintain law and order. Spreading what would be unfounded rumours about supernatural slayings significantly undermines their mission statement if it induces panic.

As for the specific impaling of Hai Narashi and Hyouma's near miss, no one was around when this happened. A coincidence which happens a lot in this franchise, but it's a lot more trouble for the Tsukumogami if they attempt their kidnappings in the public eye. Like Yaken in episode two, a lot of them would like to live in the human world and the current arrangement where their existence is largely kept a secret from the mundane world makes it easier for all parties involved. If it was an all-out war with their existence out in the open as public knowledge, there would be much less of them around as it would be a 24 hour witch hunt.

Ultimately it boils down to suspension of disbelief. If viewers are going to second-guess every single detail of the setting used in a work of fiction focusing on the supernatural, then don't bother since it's not worth the hassle to attain some kind of entertainment value. If the work isn't for you because it's unrealistic and everything is laughably and absurdly dissonant with perceived reality, there's no need to hate-watch the show. Go do something else worth your time and attention.

Ugh. Harleyquin you are clearly an intelligent, knowledgable poster. In the past, I have often learned things and deepened my appreciation of shows thanks to reading your posts. Unfortunately, the benefit you often bring comes with a price and we've just seen it in your reply above to DuskyPredator.

To imply that they are hate watching this show is a wildly overblown characterization and completely unfair. They are clearly encountering things that they are figuratively stubbing their toe on and they come here to discuss those. Which is exactly what a series discussion forum is for. "Series discussion" does not mean, "only favourable comments are welcome."

I do not feel the same way DP does about the issues they have raised, but I certainly acknowledge their right to raise them. I believe their comments are sincere and and accurate reflection of how they feel as opposed to bad faith trolling designed to cause consternation.

Consider this an earnest appeal for you to continue on with the sort of posting that makes you a valuable contributor to this forum and leave behind the salty, "go do something else worth your time and attention" stuff that doesn't advance intelligent debate and only serves to provoke irritation.

Last edited by b-dragon on Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Haori dresses up quite well, especially if it's for the purpose of trolling Hyouma (she seemed to derive far too much enjoyment from him squirming for that not to be a significant motivating factor.)

I think the ending bit when Hyouma draws a mental link between how he interacted with his siblings and how the ladies were interacting with Botan is something we might should have seen earlier in the show. It may have made his more collegial interactions come across as a bit less abrupt.

Botan continues to be a weak link, in terms of characterization. A lot of characters talk about her, but she hasn't had too much in the way of screentime herself. Hopefully this changes going forward: I think it will, but its worth the mention.

As for how aware the general public is of the supernatural- I think I've read too much urban fantasy. The frequent explanation in those stories tends to be that people reflexively ignore/shun what is strange or lacks conventional explanation, and when police get involved, they tend to call in specialists while telling the general public that its a more "mundane" sort of crime. So I attributed that sort of framework more or less automatically.

Apropos of absolutely nothing, I'll just put it out there that I'd be up for a slice of life spin off show that consisted of nothing more than Yu going about her normal day.

Okay, you kids stop fussing, or I'm turning this car around right now!

Blood: <<Apropos>>

I'm not sure how well that one would do on the ratings charts. After all, not everybody's a perve- (cough) irrepressible romantic <g>

So, anyhow, the thing I was wondering is, if you were a tsukomogami, what item would you possess?

Me, I'd probably become my coffee maker. So I guess I'd have the ability to make my hands heat up, get really energetic, and spit out boiling black liquid.

If only I'd known, I would have spent most of my life staring intently at a set of tungsten steel steak knives or something.

Oh, Edjwald.

*sighs deeply*

What a seething cauldron of roiling controversy you have innocently jumped into.

*approaches lectern, adjusts spectacles*

As this show (and others that featured tsukumogami) stipulates, tsukumogami are objects that have become animated by spirits. To use this show specifically, we have seen objects like a sword, a mirror, a paper fan, a hair pin, etc be tsukumogami.

Now, as far as I remember, I have heard no character specifically say that an electronic device or machine CANNOT become a tsukumogami, but by the same token I don't believe we have seen an example of such a thing.

Coffee maker, Edjwald? Really?

*pinches bridge of nose*

I mean, I suppose the carafe could become a tsukumogami and taking the parameters of the show as revealed so far, I would grant that your power might be to be able to fling hot black liquid in an opponent's face, but...

...an entire coffee maker?!?

No. No, one rather thinks not.

....

Wink

(By the by, if I could possess one of my objects to become a tsukumogami, it would no doubt be one of the anime figures I collected years ago when I still had the display space and financial wherewithal to do so. By some bizarre coincidence, the vast majority of my figure collection are scantily clad, rather busty female figures. Not sure how that happened. In any case, I would possess one of them and then spend most of the day admiring myself in the mirror.)

I have a really nice pen. It was bought and customized from some pen convention (they apparently have those,) by a friend specifically for me. And it is one of the best gifts I've ever received- I have poor manual dexterity, and hand tremors (and thus am prone to hand cramps,) and this brilliant writing tool helps with all of it. A thick grip with a nice, cushioned pad to reduce cramping, a nice fine tip to remind me not to push down. The ink is easily refillable- and relatively easy/cheap to get, And its all wrapped in a nice, understated almost gray granite countertop aesthetic.

This pen has gone through multiple moves, jobs, and a lot of stress. But between the gift aspect and the sheer helpful functionality I've always kept it to hand. So what I'm trying to say is...if I were going to be formed of anything, I'd hope it to be this pen. Perhaps throwing ink, and maybe pens as darts.

(Honorable mention to my only scarf. Also a gift, this one hand-knitted from a classmate in college. Its a bit raggedy now, a decade and change on. But its still quite cozy.)

Oooo, I bet a scarf tsukumogami would be great at strangling people! But yeah a sweet pen is pretty cool too. As you go into battle, you could look coolly at your enemy and then say in a chilling tone, "Get ready to be... written off."

Edjwald wrote:

So, anyhow, the thing I was wondering is, if you were a tsukomogami, what item would you possess?

Either this

or my daughter's stuffed bunny.

Ha ha, ODDTAXI for the win!

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