Forum - View topicKyoto Animation...what is it?
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Animastryfe
 Posts: 152 Location: Vancouver |
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Truthfully, I thought the action scenes in the original FMP lackluster, but the first episode of TSR blew me away in terms of animation difference between the two seasons. You can just look at one of the fights with the twins in it.
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Porcupine
 Posts: 1033 |
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selenta, to be honest I wasn't sure if you were serious or not about that part. Sorry for ignoring your [/sarcasm] tag. I had looked at it and thought about what it meant, but in the end I was unsure. I thought it could have been an Emoticon gone wrong (typo) or something. Next time I will know what it means.
[roll: [wink] :/twisted] 
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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In my opinion Kyoani would be a cult following that know that they are on a mission from God, to save us from the world and fall into Haruiism, among other things. But on a serious note, I appreciate what Kyoani does, because they've come out with some very good and very interesting series, and I hope to see more from them.
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qtipbrit92
 Posts: 37 Location: San Diego |
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Even with Gurren Lagann's episode four aside, I really hope you're not promulgating that Gankutsuou (though the animation style is almost impossible to compare to other series.), Gurren Lagann, Dennou Coil, and Serei had more detailed animation than any KyoAni work (maybe Lucky Star). If not, then in the words of Hard Gay, o~ke~! Though you were likely trying to state this, some of those works may have had a better overall reaction or were better in several other areas, but they don't come close in terms of animation quality. Regarding previous statements, I, too, agree that KyoAni's original composition may not be one of its strong points, though I have not seen Munto, I have heard that it was not particularly amazing. Though I believe it has been stated, unlike some studios (J.C. Staff comes to mind), KyoAni's writing and direction mimic their source, though they give a little leeway for adaptations of Key's visual novels. |
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Don't pretend to act like you don't know what I was trying to say and then completely twist my words and try to "interpret" what I was trying to say as almost the complete opposite of what I said, it's insulting (though, I'll admit Gankutsuou was a bad example of obvious superiority as it is very different). I WAS actually trying to say that, and you'd be hard pressed to show otherwise, nor am I the only one who see it; Dennou Coil and Gurren Lagann were both the recipients of an animation award in Japan who's name I can not currently remember (I'm sure some one else here does). It was mentioned on this very same site at the time. If you knew me better, you'd know I'm a huge KyoAni fan, perhaps one of the biggest on the site. However, I'm not so blind as to not know better work when I see it, the animation in at least the latter three shows is undeniably more detailed on average than any show KyoAni has ever produced, even Haruhi. This fight from Seirei was the the first one in the show, and I feel disgusted to watch in on youtube because it really doesn't do the scene justice. Are you really positing that Kyoto Animation's animation for their last several projects has been more detailed and higher quality than every other show made by every other team of every other studio in Japan for the last several years? |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6874 Location: Kazune City |
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Westlo
 Posts: 1684 |
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Seirei is superior to any KyoAni anime in terms of animation. People always seem to mention how when God Knows is OVA quality well the Jiguro spear fights in Seirei is near movie quality.
selenta already posted the ep 3 fight, if I could be bothered I would upload 2 scenes from episode 19. The first being the pivotal scene of the episode, which was also just a wonderful display of voice acting by Balsa's VA. The second being the spoiler[return to the village], that scene is so well animated that even though there is no dialogue you know what they're saying because of how well animated everyone's movements are. selenta are you also watching Ghost Hound? The animation is also stunning in that series and I expect the same from Real Drive.
Nope.
Indubitably. I wasn't really looking forward to TSR but after the first few action scenes I was just blown away and it only got better after that. |
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Although I know what group you're talking about, I've only seen their translations for the entirety of one of those series. I own Haruhi and Fumoffu on DVD (only version of Fumoffu I've seen is the DVD, no idea if they even did those subs back when), and I was too impatient at the time to watch their subs for Kanon and Clannad; Lucky Star was about half and half. Only seen bits and pieces of TSR, but it's all been official. I'll agree that the sub group does a fantastic job and is pretty liberal with the actual words being used, but that's really not entirely what I'm talking about; in addition, I know enough Japanese to understand at least 70% of the conversations without subtitles anyway. The fact that very little of their productions are original is another thing that is also definitely helping the apparent quality of their writing. However, even taking all of that into consideration, I would still argue rather strongly that it is the studio's writing that is the primary factor in what makes it all so effective. No other studio has done even remotely as effective of job at adapting a nakige or dating sim based anime as KyoAni in my opinion, and the adaptation aspect is certainly something that is done almost exclusively by the studio. My point is that there's a reason I'll watch pretty much anything they put out right now, and above average graphics can do it for me on their own, but I'd watch their shows even if they were actually animated by Gonzo (... probably). |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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I have no comment on the animation quality of shows like Denno Coil, Gurren-Lagann, or Seirei since I haven't seen any of these shows yet. And maybe I never will if the domestic DVD industry keeps going on the way it is (hopefully my comment won't trigger an off-topic discussion about it here though, that's not my intention). I hope they have good animation quality like you guys are saying.
One thing I'd mention though is that as far as I know there's no awards given for "Best Animation Quality" in the sense that we are using the term (referring to the motion/movement quality of the animation, as opposed to the overall look of the show which could include not only motion-related aspects but quality of still drawings and drawing style and backgrounds as well). So stating that Gurren-Lagann or etc won awards is not relevant to the topic at hand. If I'm not mistaken, Vortextk's original intention was for the thread to discuss the animation quality of Kyoto Ani's work, as opposed to all these other things. But I could have misunderstood his intentions, or Vortex may be fine with discussing these other things as well. Just thought I'd point out what I think was the original topic of the thread. P.S. - One last thing for me to point out regarding animation quality. It's my strong belief that one CANNOT judge animation quality accurately from a fansub. Why? Because the picture quality becomes too poor whenever things move. Admittedly I have very little experience with fansubs, but the few I saw at a convention about 4 years ago mostly looked like unwatchable crap that wasn't even animated at the correct frame rate, being encoded at 30 fps progressive which is not correct to do. A few were watchable (encoded at correct frame rate) but still terrible quality due to bitrate issues. Even assuming that modern fansubs are far superior and have overcome these issues, they still won't be able to overcome bitrate issues during times when there is high-movement and high-quality animation with a high frame-rate. The image quality will just become unwatchable at these times. Even for commerical DVDs which use 4 to 8 times the bitrate of most 250 megabytes-an-episode fansubs, I often complain about the image quality when things move, so unless the fansubs use a higher bitrate or otherwise achieve some sort of miracle, I doubt that the fansubs you guys are watching allow you to accurately judge the animation quality of a show. It's for that very reason that (so far) I go out of my way never to watch fansubs. I feel that my first impression of a show is very valuable and I don't even want to preview a show in low-quality to see if I enjoy it or not before buying it. |
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Nom_Anor
 Posts: 246 |
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I would strongly disagree a fansub is too low quality to be watchable. Although I must admit I find the series I have bought on DVD to have image quality far superior to a normal fansub, something to remember is MPEG-2 is a really outdated codec. The bitrates on an XVID, much less an H264 fansub are going to be far better than equal bitrates in MPEG-2. So the low bitrates are, though not equal to DVD, basically TV quality. Honestly, if I owned a big-screen TV(which I don't), I would have a difficult time deciding between an HD fansub and a commercial DVD. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Just to clarify I never said that fansubs are unwatchable. I only said that to me SOME of them were unwatchable (when encoded at incorrect frame-rate, causing jerking).
MPEG-2 is not as outdated as you say. In case you didn't know, people have been testing MPEG-2 vs MPEG-4 at high bitrates to decide which to use for high definition, high birate Blu-Ray releases...and so far MPEG-2 which is the older codec yields the better quality at an equivalently high bitrate. At equivalently low bitrates, no one is disputing that MPEG-4 is better quality than MPEG-2. I'm still skeptical that a 250 megabytes-an-episode file will yield satisfactory quality on a rapidly moving scene that is why I say that I don't think animation quality (just this particular aspect of quality) can be accurately judged on a fansub. Also you shouldn't make unjustified statements like "fansubs are better than TV quality". One can put forth a strong argument why analog cable (not digital cable) TV quality is even better than DVD quality. I don't have a lot of experience with HD fansubs so it's quite possible those are of a higher quality. But from what little I've seen (on torrent sites, though I haven't downloaded to watch for myself) the so-called HD animes are still 250 megs to 400 megs an episode. So the quality is not really "HD" if the bitrate is that low. To maintain equal quality a HD show must be at least 2 to 6 times larger in filesize than a correspond SD show or it's not even truly HD, just essentially upscaled SD. |
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Ignorance porcupine, that's not an excuse. For the record, if I compare the fansubs to the DVD for many of the series I own (INCLUDING KyoAni products like Fumoffu and Haruhi) I see absolutely negligible differences in animation quality. Perhaps you would do well to keep in mind that anime is only animated at 12 frames per second, far far below the refresh rate of a TV or a moniter. Also, some shows now are actually broadcast on cable in HD and are thus available in fansub format with actual HD comparable quality.
I'm disappointed you would even attempt to say that one can't judge animation based on fansubs. Fansubs generally use the clearest signal available for the original broadcast of a show, and if we're watching it on a computer monitor or a HD tv, we're seeing as clear or clearer of a picture than those watching it on their normal tv in Japan. You saw a few fansubs a few years ago and they were bad? Puh-lease, you have to have better arguments than that. One last thing, the OP was not asking only about the fluidity of the animation, but was essentially asking what we think are the reasons behind their success. Animation is not the same thing as a show's "art", the award I referenced earlier is for the shows animation quality; if you had seen any of the titles on the list, we wouldn't be having this discussion. EDIT: you beat me porcupine, while you are correct that the file size is indeed smaller, that is due almost entirely to the encoding available to home computers. If you'd noticed, the HD raws for some anime episodes are released as 900+ megabyte files that are then cut down to 230-ish megabytes without losing any meaningful information. I don't want to get into a pissing match of bit rates with you, but I've compared them side by side, there's very little if any meaningful difference. Are you really saying the bitrate needs to be so ludicrously high that we're comparing the difference between analog cable and DVD quality, to be able to tell the difference between two cartoons animated at 12 frames per second? It may not come out mount-it-on-your-wall perfect in every frame, but you don't need to have a video that would make a videophile (or whatever they're called) cry manly tears to be able to tell the difference. EDIT 2/3/4:Dear LORD I can't spell Last edited by selenta on Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:51 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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qtipbrit92
Posts: 37 Location: San Diego |
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I admit that I likely hold some bias as a KyoAni fan, though I'm very sure that those awards are not for animation quality so much as overall excellence, as even Summer Days with Coo is not what I would consider "great animation". True, Gurren Lagann and Dennou Coil could arguably (in the latter's case) been more popular and have had more strong points, epic fights, internet ingenuity, giant robots, DENSUKE!, etc. compared to Lucky Star and Clannad's anime references and drama, though I was very skeptical even before viewing the awards, as Gurren Lagann's animation may have been clean and detailed compared to other animes of its kind, though I didn't find it particularly great (speak not of episode four.). I also must admit that I had seen very, very little of Seirei and was judging it upon what little I had seen, so I should have had more prior knowledge beforehand. Youtube may not be the best outlet for me to view it, but I can obviously see the high level of quality of this particular scene, and even with Youtube's quality, it's still likely better than most of Kyoto's best scenes. I'm not saying that each of Kyoto's works have had better animation quality than every other anime series within the last few years, but that each of their series has had very good animation, at the very least (their Full Metal Panic! seuqles may not have had very good animation, though it was obviously in a high tier at the time.). I.G.'s Seirei no Moribito, Gonzo's Gankutsuou, (once again, arguably.) and many others many have surpassed Kyoto's level, but honestly, have all of I.G. and Gonzo's works had this same high level of animation quality? |
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Oh no, absolutely not, that was my point. |
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Animastryfe
Posts: 152 Location: Vancouver |
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What was wrong with Gurren Lagann's episode 4?
Is there a way to find out a studio's/show's budget? |
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