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It wasn't scary or anything, my mom was in the other room right next to me.

Last edited by poonk on Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

yuna49 wrote:

From what I read, many women seem drawn to this genre because it has a larger dose of romance and emotion than manga and anime about heterosexual relationships. Is that a valid observation? If so, that saddens me as a heterosexual male who likes emotion and romance. Are the lines in Japan so strictly drawn between shounen/seinen and shoujo/josei based on an expectation that males only want to see fighting guys or cute girls (or, even better, cute girls who can fight) and women only want to see bishie guys who can emote?

Well, there will be as many reasons as there are fans but that is one factor. The last few hetero anime couples I found myself rooting for were those in Ryoko's Case File, Gallery Fake, and Library Wars* (none of which were licensed Anime cry

-- coincidence?). And even in the latter 2, as you already mentioned, the heroine is a subordinate to the hero (GF's Sara being Fujita's assistant and LW's heroine-- can't remember their names at the moment-- being a subordinate officer to the lieutenant). It's one of the reasons I migrated to watching primarily live-action dramas for my hetero romance fix. Anime often has nothing to offer me in that department so I mostly turn to that for the "pure entertainment" viewing (fanbait stuff like Kuroshitsuji, Hetalia, etc.). That's okay, as it serves its purpose, but if they started producing more anime that emulated the characters & storylines in dramas I'd be a happy girl and I'd definitely watch more anime. I can't see them doing it though because how could you sell fanboys/girls merchandise of such normal-looking characters?

*I haven't seen Planetes but everything I've ever heard about it tells me I'd probably really enjoy it. Maybe it's time to check it out already.

Wait, I want to go back to your earlier point, because when I said:

erinfinnegan wrote:

I don't read romance novels, but it's my understanding that they adhere to strict formulaic guidelines.

I wasn't just pulling that statement out of thin air. It was something my friends had discussed at length (and they read some romance novels beforehand).

I asked one of my friends for his source on the romance novel formula, and he had the following to say:

Quote:

I got it from this book:http://www.amazon.com/How-Write-Romance-Get-Published/dp/0451165314

Different romance novels follow different formulae, and I believe the essay I was referring to was for historical "bodice-rippers"; but the formula for this genre was pretty strict, and required a sex scene in chapters x, y, and z, for example.

And look at this: The Romance Writer's Phrase Book

As for the following:

Kyokat wrote:

Wait, can't you just reverse that? Doesn't this make just as much sense?
[snip]

erinfinnegan wrote:

I get offended when people say that "all manga has the same plot" and my reaction is always to come up with the two most disparate examples possible and tell that person to go check them out, like The Walking Man and Di Gi Charat.

I barely even had to switch the words.

I have had people complain directly to me at least twice in real life, that "all manga looks the same". I don't have a real life example of anyone saying that about anime, at least, not to me in person. My brother has complained to me that most anime is garbage, although he's willing to admit that there are good anime titles out there.

So my manga example was drawn from real life but my anime example was hypothetical. If someone complains that all manga looks the same, I think they are wrong, but if someone complains that all anime has the same plot, I think their complaint has a heck of a lot more merit. It might be a generalization, but I would agree with them.

Besides, there is no Walking Man anime. I'd give a different example, like Hello Kitty versus Jin-Roh.

The things I liked about Kintaro was that he really doesn't fit in, but because of that he can act purely. It is clear in so many situations that Kin-chan is a lower-class guy, that "shouldn't" be there, he doesn't do the thing he is "supposed" to do. I found him charming for that reason.

In a sense, Kintaro is the Romanticised Noble Savage. He hasn't been corrupted by society. He has ideals that may be less sophisticated than the middle-class salarymen around him, but they are shown as being worthy of the best members of the upper-class (the C-suite and the board room).

yuna49 wrote:

From what I read, many women seem drawn to this genre because it has a larger dose of romance and emotion than manga and anime about heterosexual relationships. Is that a valid observation? If so, that saddens me as a heterosexual male who likes emotion and romance. Are the lines in Japan so strictly drawn between shounen/seinen and shoujo/josei based on an expectation that males only want to see fighting guys or cute girls (or, even better, cute girls who can fight) and women only want to see bishie guys who can emote?

Although there is a strict line between men's and women's magazines in Japan, rest assured that there are tons of romance titles for heterosexual males about dudes emoting. Ah! My Goddess, Boys Be, and Flowers and Bees come to mind (note; I have not read them, but they run in "men's" magazines). Manga by Masakazu Katsura could fall into this category. Certainly the Video Girl Ai anime series is about Yota's emotions as much as anything else.

The trouble is where the line falls between the male protagonist's emotions and how much the cute girls are objectified. I think that if the male protagonist is too emotionless, or the series is based on a harem videogame, it really starts to stray away from actual romance into a display of cute girls of various "types" that you the viewer can choose from. Something like Tenchi Muyo isn't terrible romantic because Tenchi doesn't emote enough. Then there are titles like Rumbling Hearts where, even though it's based on a game, the male protagonist has a personality.

LaFreccia wrote:

The things I liked about Kintaro was that he really doesn't fit in, but because of that he can act purely.

I'm interested in what you mean by "purely" here. The way the word "pure" is used in anime is really interesting, and I think it's a cultural thing, because I'm never quite sure what they mean.

For example, Goku can ride Kinto-Un because he's "pure of heart" but Bulma cannot. Is it because of Bulma's moral alignment? I guess I mostly think of "purity" like an American, in terms of sexual purity. Goku can still ride Kinto-Un even after he has a kid, so that's not what "pure" means.

yuna49 wrote:

From what I read, many women seem drawn to this genre because it has a larger dose of romance and emotion than manga and anime about heterosexual relationships. Is that a valid observation?

I really found your question to be interesting so from what I've learned about the genre, the response I have for you is; it's not really completely valid. This is because the assumption you are making that genres other than BL/yaoi = straight manga and anime. The separation between the two doesn't really have much to do with sexual orientation. Think of BL in terms of the people who read it, and the reason why they do, not in terms of the subjects within the stories. So lets assume you are a heterosexual male who's interested in stories about gay romance. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll like BL or yaoi. You'd have much more fulfillment getting a western style novel that tells the tale of two men that fall in love. BL on the other hand is designed to fulfill the needs of heterosexual women because of their traditional placement in society that differs from men (and also differs from the traditional western perception of being female). That doesn't mean all straight women like it, the same way not every person in the world is a fan of anime or manga. Does that sort of clear things up?

erinfinnegan wrote:

if someone complains that all anime has the same plot, I think their complaint has a heck of a lot more merit. It might be a generalization, but I would agree with them.

If you look at the massive international success of anime like Death Note, and Cowboy Beebop, and Ghost in the Shell, this proves Erin's point.

For example:

With Cowboy Beebop, you had a show that introduces a very action oriented world and cast of characters, and yet the male protagonist isn't spending all his time talking about getting stronger and defeating a series of higher and higher level opponents. Instead, spoiler[ most of the show seems to be focused on telling a story about a group of very different individuals (who don't necessarily like each other) forming a family unit of sorts and facing their own inner demons while just trying to survive in a dystopic space age future. ]

With Death Note, you had a show that starts off spoiler[ by condemning the audience and the world we live in, and introduces the evil genius who is going to destroy that world and pass judgment on all of us, as the hero. The premise was very unique among other manga/anime. When it started to switch things up and turn the hero into the villain while making the police (who are usually portrayed as bumbling, foolish and/or corrupt) into the most moral people on the planet, that was also very unique. ]

I probably don't even need to say anything about Ghost in the Shell other than it is one of the most philosophical works I've ever seen.

Each of those works was able to break out into main stream success because it breaks from or significantly twists the generic formula that a lot of the other shows have. That's not to say that the other shows aren't good or enjoyable. However, it's easy to see how they can be criticized for recycling the same kinds of plot elements. However, I also agree that there is a huge amount of visual diversity among manga and anime. That has probably been the industry's strongest aspect.

Last edited by yuna49 on Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:53 pm; edited 4 times in total

erinfinnegan wrote:

Although there is a strict line between men's and women's magazines in Japan, rest assured that there are tons of romance titles for heterosexual males about dudes emoting. Ah! My Goddess, Boys Be, and Flowers and Bees come to mind (note; I have not read them, but they run in "men's" magazines). Manga by Masakazu Katsura could fall into this category. Certainly the Video Girl Ai anime series is about Yota's emotions as much as anything else.

I've seen the anime versions of most of these, and they are about adolescents. I'm way beyond that period in my life. What I don't see are anime series that deal much with adult romance beyond the senpai type of relationship I spoke about before. There seems to be a dearth of stories about two adults who approach each other as equals and build a relationship. Having just rewatched Mononoke Hime this evening, it reminded me how rarely I see characters as independent and equal as Ashitaka and San.

I realize that the demographics of anime tend to work against this possibility since the audience is largely composed of adolescents or young adults. I'm not necessarily looking for series about forty-year-olds (though I"d definitely watch them if they existed). I'm more bothered by the asymmetry of the relationships in shows where the protagonists are over twenty. The women are almost always inferior to the men in terms of experience and social position. What about manga, which I don't read? In seinen/josei literature, are the women consistently inferior as well? I hesitate to jump to the conclusion that this simply reflects unreconstructed patriarchal attitudes in Japanese society, but frankly I don't see many other plausible explanations.

Past wrote:

BL on the other hand is designed to fulfill the needs of heterosexual women because of their traditional placement in society that differs from men (and also differs from the traditional western perception of being female). That doesn't mean all straight women like it, the same way not every person in the world is a fan of anime or manga. Does that sort of clear things up?

I'm not sure. I think you're making an argument that's somewhat congruent with what I wrote above, though it's pretty disturbing to an American male with feminist attitudes like me. Are you suggesting that heterosexual Japanese women largely find representations of themselves as male characters in stories about homosexual relationships between men? In the few BL stories I've seen like Gravitation the relationships there are also asymmetric. Do the female readers/viewers of stories like these identify with the male in the inferior position? Or, worse in my mind, is it simply taboo to portray a heterosexual adult relationship where both parties are more or less equal at the start?

It does generally seem that stories with strong female protagonists are largely free of romance. The obvious examples are Balsa, Nina, and Yuuko in Twelve Kingdoms. In Saiunkoku, Shurrei must choose between being true to herself and pursuing her career or accepting romance and renouncing her preferred life. The same is largely true for Hiro in Hataraki Man. I'll note that all but one of these stories (Monster) are written by women. Baccano! runs counter to this viewpoint, but it's set in America which, as we all know, is full to the brim with feisty independent women.

Megiddo wrote:

It has been a good number of years since I saw Princess Mononoke, but are Ashitaka and San not adolescents? Doesn't that go to show that even if the characters are adolescents they can still be appealing to you?

I think of them being in their early twenties. They're both living independently as well. I thought about whether to include them as examples because of their ages, but I think my point still stands. I'm not saying stories about adolescents are per se beyond the pale, just that they have less relevance to me as a (considerably) older adult. And, again, San and Ashitaka seem quite unrepresentative of the pairings we see in most anime. You'll notice that the Lady Eboshi has no romantic partner.

yuna49 wrote:

erinfinnegan wrote:

There are tons of romance titles for heterosexual males about dudes emoting. Ah! My Goddess, Boys Be, and Flowers and Bees come to mind

I've seen the anime versions of most of these, and they are about adolescents. I'm way beyond that period in my life.

Having just rewatched Mononoke Hime this evening, it reminded me how rarely I see characters as independent and equal as Ashitaka and San.

It has been a good number of years since I saw Princess Mononoke, but are Ashitaka and San not adolescents? Doesn't that go to show that even if the characters are adolescents they can still be appealing to you?

yuna49 wrote:

I've seen the anime versions of most of these, and they are about adolescents. I'm way beyond that period in my life. What I don't see are anime series that deal much with adult romance beyond the senpai type of relationship I spoke about before. There seems to be a dearth of stories about two adults who approach each other as equals and build a relationship.

Even though it's josei, maybe you could check out Suppli and Tramps Like Us (aka Kimi wa Pet). Each have live action dramas and manga available in English.

In Suppli, the protagonist is 27 and works in advertising. Her boyfriend of seven years has just left her, and in volumes 4&5, which just came out last week, the protagonist observes the relationships of her coworkers. Can career women really keep working in Japan if they get married?

In Kimi wa Pet, the proud, tall female career woman dates a man who is socially her inferior. It's the reverse of the senpai relationship you've pointed out, but at least they're both adults.

The only other romance I can think of - and again, you'd need to watch the drama series (and not the movie or the different manga series) is Train Man. It's a bit of a stretch. But once again, we're not really dealing with equals.

Paprika is awesome, but not particularly romantic.

ZOMG how about Only Yesterday?

yuna49 wrote:

It does generally seem that stories with strong female protagonists are largely free of romance. The obvious examples are Balsa, Nina, and Yuuko in Twelve Kingdoms. In Saiunkoku, Shurrei must choose between being true to herself and pursuing her career or accepting romance and renouncing her preferred life. The same is largely true for Hiro in Hataraki Man. I'll note that all but one of these stories (Monster) are written by women. Baccano! runs counter to this viewpoint, but it's set in America which, as we all know, is full to the brim with feisty independent women.

I do have one good example for you. I started watching Birdy the Mighty just by chance on Funimation's website. At first I thought I wouldn't like it just because the pictures all seemed to show the protagonist nearly naked (which she sort of is) all the time, and I thought it would be just another no-plot fan-service show. But I started watching just cause I was curious, and I got hooked on that show. I watched all of both seasons, and was sort of anxiously awaiting Funimation to release each episode. I think Birdy is a great example of a strong female protagonist who also has romance, and the romance doesn't lessen her. spoiler[ (1) She is more or less equally powerful with her romantic interest (as of the 2nd season, he has additional powers that she doesn't have, but he is inherently unstable and everytime he uses his powers he comes closer to death, whereas she can use her powers without any limits whatsoever); and (2) she is portrayed as a superior moral person throughout pretty much all of the series, and as such put up high on a pedestal above the other "aliens". ] There were some things about the second season of the show that I didn't like. spoiler[ I do think that Birdy's love interest becomes so dark by the end that he is way too far gone and can't possibly be redeemed, so I do think the authors weren't entirely fair with the audience in how they end it (almost in a deus ex machina type of way)], but anyway the main point is Birdy is a very strong woman (nearly indestructable it seems) and she has romance, AND she nearly always seems to be in control.

erinfinnegan wrote:

yuna49 wrote:

There seems to be a dearth of stories about two adults who approach each other as equals and build a relationship.

Even though it's josei, maybe you could check out Suppli and Tramps Like Us (aka Kimi wa Pet). Each have live action dramas and manga available in English.

I'd like to second these recommendations, for both dramas and the KwP manga (haven't read Suppli). That's the corker; I can name lots of dramas where independent, adult men & women meet more or less as equals and develop a relationship; anime, not so much. As yuna49 noted, it seems like either they're not so equal or the romance never happens (I for one was perhaps delusionally rooting for Yuuko & Keiki in Twelve Kingdoms).

Quote:

In Suppli, the protagonist is 27 and works in advertising. Her boyfriend of seven years has just left her, and in volumes 4&5, which just came out last week, the protagonist observes the relationships of her coworkers. Can career women really keep working in Japan if they get married?

As I said, I haven't read the manga but can anyone totally spoil it for me? In the drama [slight spoiler for drama, and maybe for manga too] spoiler[her younger subordinate Yuya (the temp) starts pursuing her.] Is this based on the manga or did they just want to make it a vehicle for Kamenashi Kazuya?

One other thing: I think it's really interesting that Erin's little aside about renting Okane ga Nai caused the thread to evolve into the "lack of mature, hetero romance in anime" topic we're currently discussing.

[quote="erinfinnegan"]Wait, I want to go back to your earlier point, because when I said:

erinfinnegan wrote:

I don't read romance novels, but it's my understanding that they adhere to strict formulaic guidelines.

I wasn't just pulling that statement out of thin air. It was something my friends had discussed at length (and they read some romance novels beforehand).

I asked one of my friends for his source on the romance novel formula, and he had the following to say:

Quote:

I got it from this book:http://www.amazon.com/How-Write-Romance-Get-Published/dp/0451165314

Different romance novels follow different formulae, and I believe the essay I was referring to was for historical "bodice-rippers"; but the formula for this genre was pretty strict, and required a sex scene in chapters x, y, and z, for example.

And look at this: The Romance Writer's Phrase Book

They really aren't any more formulaic than any other genre fiction, apart from the tendency to see them as such. The Phrase Book and How To book hold true for "series" romances (Harlequins, Silhouettes) but not the ones you more typically see on the best seller lists. In fact, you're more likely to see formulae at play in high school romance manga. A couple of good sources for the interested are Dangerous Men, Adventurous Women edited by Jayne Ann Krentz, which is essays by romance authors discussing the genre and Reading the Romance by Janice A. Radway, which is a more academic book on the topic.

You can actually trace most romances back to one of two fairy tales - "Beauty and the Beast" (or Eros and Psyche, really) for the hero-is-a-jerk genre, like Hot Gimmick and "Little Red Riding Hood" for the rape fantasy ones, like No Money. And yes, rape fantasy is considered a valid subset of the romance novel. Creepy, huh?

/English professor

KanjiiZ wrote:

What the hell are you guys talking about? I looked up xvideos thinking it was something weird and it turned out to be porn and I had the volume turned up all the way and one of those sex pop ups came up all loud. I haven't been scared like that since the Maze game. Screw you guys man put up some not NSFHome labels up next time.

And that is why I never open up links that I don't know about with volume. Happened to me once and the results weren't pretty at all.

yuna49 wrote:

I'm not sure. I think you're making an argument that's somewhat congruent with what I wrote above, though it's pretty disturbing to an American male with feminist attitudes like me. Are you suggesting that heterosexual Japanese women largely find representations of themselves as male characters in stories about homosexual relationships between men? In the few BL stories I've seen like Gravitation the relationships there are also asymmetric. Do the female readers/viewers of stories like these identify with the male in the inferior position? Or, worse in my mind, is it simply taboo to portray a heterosexual adult relationship where both parties are more or less equal at the start?

First of all, as a feminist woman (but not one of those extreme ones), I'm happy to hear this from a man. Thanks.

Secondly, I think you're asking a bunch of loaded questions. I imagine that we could sit here and psychoanalyze everything, and it still wouldn't all add up in the end. But as a woman who has enjoyed a BL/yaoi or two and who has had some BL/yaoi friends, I'll try and provide some of my perspective.

I think the appeal of homosexual relationships between men for women is partially due to the appearance of equality. Here we have two people with all the same parts that can flipflop if wanted (so even if we have one that’s more dominant than the other, it still feels okay because they could switch). And being of the same gender, they can better understand one another. Further, with no woman in the relationship, she can’t be objectified.

Of course, this reasoning could hold as much water as a colander, but I’m certain many people can identify with how hard it is to reason with your own perceptions/desires. Some young women might also feel disenfranchised with life, and this romantic, idealistic boy-on-boy thing is the perfect escape.

Also, keep in mind that BL is made for girls/women, so it plays on a lot of their fantasies (well, for some of us at least). The male characters most of the time are drawn pretty/attractive-in-an-androgynous way. They are romantic, sensitive, nurturing, idealistic portrayals of what they (the women) really want (i.e. the stoic/bad boy/hard ass with a heart of gold, the Knight in Shining Armor) and share a lot of tropes with their shoujo counterparts. Except, instead of having a man being all romantic on a woman, we have a man being all romantic on another man. And since one is more controversial than the other, that adds a whole new level to the relationship. There’s nothing like conflict getting in the way of a relationship and two people fighting to stay together regardless of such opposition that gets the blood pumping and makes people swoon and squeal all over it.

But more than relationship dynamics, there’s another, simpler appeal toward BL that I think the Risembool Rangers summarize up well:
You see one guy, you think it's cute.
But if you see two guys, all over each other,
with wind blowing through their hair,
now that's sexy.
BL is hot. And when you get into the more explicit yaoi, that’s even hotter. While I’m not much into the animated pr0n scene, I do love me some gay pr0ns and can totally understand that. There are many heterosexual women out there who get turned on by two men doing it, much like there are many men out there who get turned on by girl-on-girl. It’s not rocket science, it’s hormones.

Okay, you say, you mentioned earlier about the whole “equality” thing, but then why the Seme/Uke dynamics? If one appeal to the woman is equality between the pairs, why would they make one half of the relationship the dominant “male” part and the other half the submissive “female” part?

I really can’t answer that, and I’m certain there’s more than one right answer to it. I mean, I was sort of into the Seme/Uke dynamic when I was younger, but not anymore (well, okay, not entirely true, but more on that later). I knew of one woman who said she liked it because she could relate to the Ukes in the relationships since she’s the submissive one in her homosexual relationship. I think some people are just turned on by the dominant/submissive concept. But for a more generalized, blanket statement, I think growing up in a heterosexual culture might be affecting people’s perception/judgment as well (this is only my theory). We’re so used to seeing heterosexual couples that maybe our minds default back to that at times, so seeing a “cute, girly” boy paired up with a more “muscular, handsome” man might just seem more normal. Also, the Ukes are more often the characters the women relate to, and so they’re ultimately a stand-in for the female reader to live out her fantasies with the idealistic. It’s ironic since this ultimately contradicts the whole appeal of equality and escaping reality, but then again… <insert>”humanity is prone to contradicting itself, blah, blah”</insert>.

As for myself, personally, I prefer having equality in a relationship, whether it be homosexual or heterosexual. As for the Seme/Uke dynamic, I’m not into yaoi/BL stories where this dynamic is blatant. A majority of the homosexual couples I like in anime fall into the Ho Yay category (not an official couple, but subtext given between the two throughout the series). So even though there’s no official relationship, fandom will often go and denote one character as Uke in the relationship and the other as Seme, due to character dynamics or physical appearances of the couple. For example, in Yami no Matsuei/Descendants of Darkness, the general popular opinion is that Hisoka is Uke and Tsuzuki is Seme, and a large portion of fanfics and doujinshi dedicated to these two have that. While, overall, I prefer equality in the relationship, my tendencies run opposite of the fandom majority opinion. As such, if I want to see a character being dominant I normally prefer seeing the fandom-perceived Uke being the dominant one. I think this coincides with my preference to see stronger, more independent and dominant women.

So here’s where my bias comes in. Idealistically, I like relationships where the characters are on even ground. However, I tend to sway a bit towards the side where the women/”female role” of the relationship has more power (sexually, economically, professionally, emotionally, whatever). Take that as you will.

poonk wrote:

erinfinnegan wrote:

yuna49 wrote:

There seems to be a dearth of stories about two adults who approach each other as equals and build a relationship.

Even though it's josei, maybe you could check out Suppli and Tramps Like Us (aka Kimi wa Pet). Each have live action dramas and manga available in English.

I'd like to second these recommendations, for both dramas and the KwP manga (haven't read Suppli). That's the corker; I can name lots of dramas where independent, adult men & women meet more or less as equals and develop a relationship; anime, not so much. As yuna49 noted, it seems like either they're not so equal or the romance never happens (I for one was perhaps delusionally rooting for Yuuko & Keiki in Twelve Kingdoms).

Hmm, I'm going to have to also recommend Emma. Social standing, Emma is technically inferior to William; however, taking that out of the equation, Emma and William as people are pretty equal. Initially, Emma may even be moreso capable than William at taking care of herself due to her past and circumstances (which makes me admire her a lot). William is more idealistic and flighty in the beginning while Emma is more down-to-earth. So, throughout the story, they both have a lot to learn, and I see it as an equal give and take even though in the end spoiler[Emma joins his world and has to learn all of the customs of being upper class. However, by this time they're an official couple, so I don't see it as much of a sempai/kohai dynamic than just one significant other helping the other out and showing them the ropes. Besides, it's more the other women who become Emma's unofficial teachers than William.]

3x3 Eyes, though not technically adults (Pai/Parvati is 300+ years old and Yakumo is in high school), has a 3-way dynamic even though it's still technically only 2 people. Also, the course of the story happens over several years, so the characters grow older. I doubt it's what you're looking for though, but I totally love the Pai/Yakumo/Parvati dynamics.

Maison Ikkoku is a more realistic take on romance. But it's very entrenched in Japanese conservative ideals (the woman stays home and cooks and takes care of the children while the man works). Even so, Kyoko is a lot more mature than Godai initially and can take better care of herself. By the end they're more equal in that regard (but they end up following their traditional roles in society, which they both wanted, but if you're not into that it can leave a nasty taste in your mouth).

Spice and Wolf might fit your criteria (even though Holo has not seen as much of the world as Lawrence, she has lived longer... he tries to teach her, but many times she ends up teaching him as well due to her experience and wisdom).

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