Forum - View topicREVIEW: Valvrave the Liberator episodes 1-6
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2633 |
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The fact that many people are questioning that it was spoiler[rape] is one of the many issues I have with the scene and why this is a very touchy subject in fiction.
spoiler[Because yes this is fiction but people actually have these same fricking arguments in real life. The fact that people are saying it is ambiguous is disturbing. There is nothing ambiguous about rape] |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23876 |
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My take on that scene was that it was not done for cheap shock value or for prurient titillation. Nor do I believe it was done to appeal to those freaks who get off on representations of spoiler[rape.]
I believe the action arose organically out of what had been established earlier and was actually kind of a powerful dramatization of exactly how effed you are if you accept Valvrave's, "Do you resign your humanity?" offer. I thought the way that dark scene was intercut with the high energy pep talk given by Shoko lent it even more pathos and power. It wasn't a cheap trick at all, imo. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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What. The. Hell. You just...I'm sorry, I have no clue what I just saw. You just in all straight seriousness, said that spoiler[proposing to the girl he raped justifies it] I have no words. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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Right I don't have a problem with the characters just the writers. |
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getchman
He started it Posts: 9122 Location: Bedford, NH |
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So what's everyone going to discuss when the episode this happens in is actually reviewed?
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14795 |
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Like Scarlett O'Hara's it's not spoiler[rape], it's just spoiler[surprise sex]?
Last edited by enurtsol on Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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On a purely personal level, I'm not in favor of it either. But I'd doubt it's going to actually happen, nor will it "make things okay" considering the circumstances. Then again, it should be made clear that spoiler[Haruto was also raped by whatever took over his mind and body]. However, it's still a despicable act and I don't consider him blameless.
And I also have no words for your completely misrepresenting and misunderstanding my words. I did not "justify" the act nor did I analyze the moral righteousness of the character's behavior. I simply explained what appears to be the logic behind his actions after-the-fact. Nothing more, nothing less. You can disagree with my interpretation, but if you're going to get so upset, the least you can do is pay attention to what I wrote and not accuse me of "justifying" something when that's nowhere in my posts. Last edited by nightjuan on Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bolfotha
Posts: 18 |
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spoiler[It's "okay" to rape someone in a comedy. Ok, I take that back, it's not okay, but people throw away their moral compass when they watch comedy.
It's "okay" to have a rape in a serious story, if the rape is portrayed as it is: horrible and humiliating. Rape in Valvrape disturbs people, because it produced all kinds of cognitive dissonance they can't defend against. Read more about this in my earlier post last page.] |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23876 |
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@nightjuan re:Chagen46 - That's what you get when you are dealing with idiots who don't watch the material themselves to form their own opinions but rather spout off based on second hand reporting.
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jymmy
 Posts: 1244 |
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I'm pretty sure we're supposed to view the spoiler[proposal] as him trying immaturely to fix the problem. No, it's not the solution, it's him being naïve.
I see the whole thing as a consequence of the whole "give up your humanity" thing. Haruto surrendered spoiler[control of his body and awoke] to find something terrible had been done. He was a victim, just not so much as Saki. It's a tragedy, pure and simple - as an unintended and semi-logical result of his actions this takes place, leaving Haruto as spoiler[unwillingly guilty] and Saki as especially a victim. Of course it's not bloody spoiler[consensual], Saki just seems to be trying to internalise the pain and deal with it by pretending it didn't happen/wasn't as terrible. As of an episode later, it does look to be lacking in consequence and narrative weight but I honestly don't see the problem in having something bad happen and depicting it as a bad thing. If it was written badly, you can criticise that, but it hasn't crossed some narrative line it shouldn't be allowed to, because unless it's a kid's show or way out of its genre/tone such a line doesn't really exist. Criticise the execution, not the idea in the first place. Last edited by jymmy on Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Speaking only about Flowers of Evil, what happens in that show is an organic evolution of the themes they telegraphed at the outset. There also is no spoiler[rape - Nakamura sexually assaults Kasuaga several times, ripping his clothes off. But there is no rape. This is not to suggest that somehow what she does is OK or to otherwise handwave it away. It's portrayed as completely disturbed and unsettling in the show. I'd put it up there with the "rape" scene in Perfect Blue in terms of "here's how you use sexual assault as a plot point - simulated or otherwise - to soberly and impactfully strengthen the themes of your very serious, dramatic story". It fits in Flowers of Evil, which is chiefly about both how unstable, confused, repressed and ultimately disturbed adolescent sexuality can be.] You may as well bring up every instance of rape ever happening in anything as a counterpoint to why it doesn't work in this stupid "robot pilot who's also a vampire!!" show. |
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
 Posts: 3820 Location: Louisville, KY |
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so sexually assaulting a guy or some one is okay then as long as it builds up to it?? I'll admit that I was wrong about the rape in that series then. I just don't like one way or the other it disturbs the hell out of me apically spoiler[when saeki forcibly holds down kasuga and says "lets be together forever in her underwear"] I realize I shouldn't making this counter point to make compared to this shi*** vampire anime, but it still upsets me. Last edited by Cecilthedarkknight_234 on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jymmy
Posts: 1244 |
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It is portrayed as a bad thing and makes sense. What exactly is your problem?
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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Bringing up the other shows indicates that the subject can in fact be treated much more seriously, as you've described with Flowers of Evil here, but the opposite is also true and there are plenty of gray areas between both extremes. You have all the rape jokes spoiler[and at least one attempted rape] in Detroit Metal City, for instance. Is that a terrible show/manga because they shamelessly chose to openly make rape a laughing matter? I didn't particularly care for it, but I wasn't deeply offended by its existence either. I can see why others would though. Conversely, I've seen a different crowd praise it as great comedy. And then you have stuff like Wings of Honneamise, which is an excellent film but also brings up the subject in a less than ideal manner. I'm not going to praise its depiction, but unlike what might have happened with other viewers it didn't ruin the whole movie for me. Of course, you can still take or leave how this stupid robot show with vampires addressed the issue. There's more than enough arguments in both directions when you go around the table. |
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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I think it's because those shows have been designated quality artistic merit fodder while this is just the seasonal anime from Sunrise that's pre-destined to get shit on and busted down all over the internet to "unintentional trainwreck comedy" before anyone really knows what's happening. Seriously I cannot recall the last time they did a show where people didn't jump all over it for anything it tried to do that most shows get a bye on just fine? Maybe Tiger and Bunny? There's also still lots left to be addressed with regards to the events at the end of episode 10 like what exactly is the OS that is clearly driving him to do these things and fulfilling the Chekhov's Gun situation from way back in episode 1 trying to do. Is she trying to procreate? Trying to ensure their survival? Just [expletive] with them because it's a malevolent entity? Who cares lets just blame the MC and the writing staff for including this twist before we even see where it's going because fudge Sunrise and Okouchi and everything they stand for. 
I love when people try to pretend they don't do this too when you can totally tell they are (I caught several people when they didn't know the context of the scene in question also included a possession scenario) and then they come up with some excuse like, "well why should I have to pay so much attention to this stupid space vampire show rawr!" to which I think the only logical response can be, "well you don't have to but don't expect anyone to take your second hand opinion on it as seriously as the guy that clearly knows what he is talking about and has been watching the show". Who's to say whether the things people think don't make sense and are cliche are because they actually don't or because they are getting second hand opinions with muddled context after all.
That's how I saw it too really a spur of the moment reaction by a guy with no other options to turn to at the moment trying clumsily to smooth things over before he goes into a situation he might not be coming back from, but then my first instinct isn't to try to jump all over this show for anything that presents itself as even remotely ripe for shitting on like seems to be the popular course of action with Valvrave. Especially since much of what is going on in the show clearly isn't as it seems. You have all the rape jokes spoiler[and at least one attempted rape] in Detroit Metal City, for instance. Is that a terrible show/manga because they shamelessly chose to openly make rape a laughing matter? I didn't particularly care for it, but I wasn't deeply offended by its existence either. I can see why others would though. Conversely, I've seen a different crowd praise it as great comedy.[/quote] As I recall that show was almost universally praised and was pretty much an over the top comedy in the same way people are trying to label Valvrave (though I don't necessarily agree it's all comedy). I even recall the scene where Krauser is on all fours crawling over a girl while muttering "RAPERAPERAPERAPERAPE". No rape actually happens in that show as I recall, but I don't ever remember it being crucified on the point of glorifying rape culture and IMO far more so than Valvrave has up to this point. Last edited by Kaioshin_Sama on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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