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Most Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem


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WhiteHairGirls



Joined: 27 Apr 2011
Posts: 4713
Location: New York City
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:12 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
How about "Best Ending"? And by that I mean the ending to a series as a whole. Anime is kinda notorious for it's open endings that leave things unresolved, but the truely great conclusions deserve some recognition.


I think someone mentioned that in the past and not many people liked it. Mostly because it would be full of huge spoilers.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:53 pm Reply with quote
Well there goes "Best Plot Twist" then.

But actually, this tournament was spoiler based, wasn't it?
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:03 pm Reply with quote
But this tournament could somehow work around with just mild spoilers and general references to the characters. I.e goes from asshole to kind and caring or changes from being a crybaby to a determined leader. A "Best Ending" tournament would necessary include details about the series's ending and everyone not familiar with the show would have to spoil themselves on important plot points about it to be able to judge. Say someone hasn't watched anything from the Fate franchise, and Fate/Zero gets nominated. Our hypothetical Joe would have to learn about spoiler[Irisviel's death as a vessel to the Grail, Kiritsugu's wish, how his wish gets corrupted and the Grail destroys everything, how Kotomine survives and lives on with Gilgamesh and so on]
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Beltane70



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 3887
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:41 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I didn't want to say this before but I was sorely tempted to break the couple of draws. You know, cast a vote at the last minute to make sure someone won rather than the matchup ending as a draw. Of course I ended up not doing that. Given the final and semi-finals it probably wouldn't have changed the rankings much anyway. (Remember, I was trying to come last in the Minigame, not first.)

Speaking of which, look at all the people who got lower scores than me in the Minigame:

gGultra
Vaisaga
CrowLia
Beltane
The Naked Beast
Getchman
Psycho101

That was very mean of them, stealing my thunder like that.

Oh, and congrats to marie-antoinette for coming second.


Hey, I'm usually in the three lowest scores. This time, there's actually five people with scores lower than mine! For me, this is a victory.
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:31 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, the problem with best ending or plot twist is that you could not vote with any degree of accuracy for something without either having seen it or being spoiled. Which is a shame since they would be very good topics otherwise.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18191
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:43 am Reply with quote
Since we have had no responses in the past couple of days, this thread will now be dropped off of stickied status. Feel free to continue to discuss ideas for the next tournament, however, as I'm likely to put it to a vote later this week.

(And for those who want to take a bit of a break before going on to the next tournament, keep in mind that we won't go beyond choosing a topic for at least two weeks.)
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:43 pm Reply with quote
Sorry I missed the second half. Hadn't planned on it but between work problems, my parents losing their house and moving, money issues and car troubles, and trying to find a new place of my own I just have not had a lot of spare time. Haven't even watched much anime lately. I hope and plan to be more active in the next one. Congrats to the winners. I'll try not to suck so hard next time btw DTM so I can stop stealing your bottom rung thunder heh.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:23 pm Reply with quote
Upon thinking about it, I think Best Fight would be really awesome to do. It could even cover the stuff suggested before, like insert songs/BGMs or transformation sequences, because those usually factor heavily into fight scenes.

Plus we wouldn't have to worry about numbers. I could probably fill up the list by myself Laughing
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:40 pm Reply with quote
^
I do like my fight scenes, but there's at least three problems inherent in doing a tournament about them. Firstly, many of the best fight scenes are at the end of the show or movie they feature in; you know, the big 'ole no-holds-barred give-everything-you-have unleash-secret-ultimate-technique final battle. And that means spoilers. Secondly, people have to be able to find and watch the fights, since the recommendations of other people are useless in understanding how incredible the music and animation and choreography were. This means everyone has to hunt down and watch every fight scene (and where are they going to do that easily), plus it makes justifications moot.

Thirdly, it is a pretty subjective topic for the sort of tournament Key wants to do. For example, I could watch the final battle of TTGL and claim that it was one of the worst battles in Anime because of how ridiculous and moronic it is. But we all know that certain segments of the fandom will watch that same battle and furiously masturbate to it because of the animation and the music and whatnot. To use another example, I could claim some of the fights in Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu are absolutely brilliant because they're so hilarious and genre-subversive. But other people could dismiss those comedic fights because they prefer high action content done seriously and realistically - like in Sword of the Stranger - over fights that go the humourous route.
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Galap
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:56 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
^
I do like my fight scenes, but there's at least three problems inherent in doing a tournament about them. Firstly, many of the best fight scenes are at the end of the show or movie they feature in; you know, the big 'ole no-holds-barred give-everything-you-have unleash-secret-ultimate-technique final battle. And that means spoilers. Secondly, people have to be able to find and watch the fights, since the recommendations of other people are useless in understanding how incredible the music and animation and choreography were. This means everyone has to hunt down and watch every fight scene (and where are they going to do that easily), plus it makes justifications moot.

Thirdly, it is a pretty subjective topic for the sort of tournament Key wants to do. For example, I could watch the final battle of TTGL and claim that it was one of the worst battles in Anime because of how ridiculous and moronic it is. But we all know that certain segments of the fandom will watch that same battle and furiously masturbate to it because of the animation and the music and whatnot. To use another example, I could claim some of the fights in Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu are absolutely brilliant because they're so hilarious and genre-subversive. But other people could dismiss those comedic fights because they prefer high action content done seriously and realistically - like in Sword of the Stranger - over fights that go the humourous route.


But aren't those differences of opinion the point of these things though?

Also, you can't really talk about a show in depth to someone who hasn't seen it without spoilers. Spoilers are spoilers because they are the more meaningful events and concepts in the show. It's an inherent thing to the way these tournaments work that if you've seen the show, you have the context, and if you haven't you can't completely.

I think best fight could be implemented, but we'd need to give links to clips of the fight scenes in question.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:37 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
(and where are they going to do that easily)


I'm pretty sure there's this tube that has U's in it...
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:25 pm Reply with quote
Galap, spoilers are a bigger problem than you make them out to be.

And I thought the purpose of Key's tournaments was to find the best candidate that fit the criteria, not just be a straight popularity contest.

Vaisaga, unless you can guarantee than every single fight scene in the tournament will be on YouTube, uncut and with the original music, then YouTube is not the answer.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:43 pm Reply with quote
If they aren't it would be a simple matter to upload them. Or just link to the episode with the time stamp if it's on Crunchyroll.
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One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 2261
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:28 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
^
I do like my fight scenes, but there's at least three problems inherent in doing a tournament about them. Firstly, many of the best fight scenes are at the end of the show or movie they feature in; you know, the big 'ole no-holds-barred give-everything-you-have unleash-secret-ultimate-technique final battle. And that means spoilers.
I don't think every decent fight scene is at the end of a show. Context is also important as unless the video clip has the aftermath of the "final fight" you may not realize its the last battle or the consequences of it. Spoilers are tricky in tournaments. Sometimes, like in the last tournament, the character description is one giant spoiler. Sometimes you have to go along with everyone else's votes and vote blind or you have to spoiler yourself and look beneath the tags. Sometimes in order to explain things they have to be spoiled.

Quote:
Secondly, people have to be able to find and watch the fights, since the recommendations of other people are useless in understanding how incredible the music and animation and choreography were. This means everyone has to hunt down and watch every fight scene (and where are they going to do that easily), plus it makes justifications moot.
I don't exactly agree with what you are saying, but I do think the biggest obstacle could be the potentially large number of videos we would need. Not that everyone has to watch every video, just as people vote without seeing a whole show, but it could require more work in both the nomination phase and tournament itself. Of course, you could cut down on some of the videos by having some criteria. For example, the fight cannot stretch out over several episodes. Maybe 2 episodes max. Otherwise it might indeed be difficult to find a video of one fight that stretches across 5 episodes, and even if you did find one it might just be asking too much for someone to watch something that long (and there are plenty of fights that are long). Still I think this topic might require more effort from everyone involved and that by itself could be a very big hurdle.

Quote:
Thirdly, it is a pretty subjective topic for the sort of tournament Key wants to do. For example, I could watch the final battle of TTGL and claim that it was one of the worst battles in Anime because of how ridiculous and moronic it is. But we all know that certain segments of the fandom will watch that same battle and furiously masturbate to it because of the animation and the music and whatnot. To use another example, I could claim some of the fights in Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu are absolutely brilliant because they're so hilarious and genre-subversive. But other people could dismiss those comedic fights because they prefer high action content done seriously and realistically - like in Sword of the Stranger - over fights that go the humourous route.
You just gave some examples yourself: Choreography, music, art, animation, mood, originality are some of the things that could be discussed. Also I'm not sure we need to be too concerned about some particular fan-base dominating. This last tournament we ended with one show that was artistically like a children's fairy tale and another that was more realistic art wise in the finals. In the final eight we had a romantic comedy (Skip Beat!), a bombastic sci-fi show (Gurren Lagann), and a slice of life show (Bunny Drop). There's plenty of variety there.

I'm not saying I'm for Best Fight/Battle, even though I suggested it, because now that I think about it the topic could be challenging to set up.
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Key
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:42 pm Reply with quote
Actually, I don't think that establishing evaluating criteria for a Best Fight would be much of a problem. For instance, "fight choreography" is something that I often bring up in reviews of action-oriented titles, and it's absolutely an evaluation point. Movement alone doesn't make a fight interesting; I've seen plenty of anime fights involving characters and/or mecha zooming around and clashing into each other and yet still being dull. What make them interesting is when the movements work to create an intense and dynamic effect. A good example of this is Neon Genesis Evangelion, as whatever else you might think about the series, its fight choreography combined with other elements to make for some hellaciously intense fight scenes, some of which would, practically by default, have to be in this tournament. In fact, choosing only three from the franchise would be difficult.

But people are also correct that it would be a logistical nightmare, as clips (or links to free legal streaming sources with appropriate time stamps) would be a virtual necessity from the beginning and some prime candidates couldn't easily be shown in clips because of their length; I don't think any would deny that Goku vs. Frieza from DBZ would have to be a very competitive player in this tournament, as it's one of the most epic of all anime battles, but that stretches over, what, an entire season?

Besides, everything else would just lose to the climactic fight of Macross Frontier anyway, so the tournament's outcome would be a foregone conclusion. Wink

Look for a new thread on this issue within the next day. I want to have a topic settled on before I go on vacation next Wednesday evening.
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