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The Proposal of Master Lee - A System For Anime Distribution


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Master Lee



Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 47
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:48 pm Reply with quote
To everyone: I realized that I have a major correction to make. I incorrectly stated that Tempest said the exclusivity period was "commonly 30 days". This statement of 30 days was quite different from what Tempest actually said. My apologies for this mistake. To remedy this I'll directly quote what Tempest said regarding the exclusivity period...

Tempest Wrote (about 3/4ths of the way down on page 4):
Quote:
In order to get an anime on TV, the TV network will often require a certain period of exclusivity, typically 90 days. What this means is that, for 90 days after the broadcast, the anime can not be released in any manner that could possibly compete with the TV broadcast. This includes foreign subtitled releases.


Sorry once again about this mistake. I'll be more diligent in double checking things in the future so as not to misqoute someone again.

Also a quick question since I'm still new to chatting on forums and haven't completely figured out how the features work. How exaclty do I get it to say "(poster's name here) Wrote:" before a qouted passage? If anyone can explain how it's done or direct me to where I can learn, please drop me a private message.



To ShadowTrader:
You had said...
Quote:
You answered my question however I now disagree with your proposal.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing with it. This kind of feedback results in positive changes to the proposal. However I'm unsure what part of my answer you disagree with. Might I ask what part in particular you disagreed with?

You also said...
Quote:
Having two choices for anime distribution still won't help the industry, mainly because many will not choose the internet distribution model because it won't be as lucrative as TV and as you know airing it on TV leaves them vulnerable to fansubbers.


Judging by recent news articles it would seem that the current TV / DVD method of distribution isn't very lucrative. This leads me to believe there needs to be another alternative. (I'm aware that there currently are some alternatives, such as anime being sold on iTunes and through other such sites. But, since the industry still seems to have a sketchy future it seems these alternatives aren't properly addressing the problem.)

I believe that online distribution, as in the proposed Service, could be as lucrative as TV. The Service would be offering the same thing as TV, in that the product would be viewable by consumers for free. The Service would even go a step beyond that by allowing consumers to watch whatever they want, whenever they want. (You yourself said that, this lack of choice was a reason why you don't like TV airings.) In addition to the freedom of choice, consumers could also buy the product right on it's air date, albeit in an online "soft copy" form. (And when / if a DVD form of the product is released the the consumer could get a discount on it.)

The above was merely the benefits to consumers. A Studio initially selling their product through the Service instead of TV would benefit by gaining direct marketing data and not having to deal with TV's penalizing exclusivity periods.

What are your reasons for feeling that online distribution can't be as lucrative as TV?

Or, are you in fact implying that the situation itself is a "catch 22" where the industry is doomed to fail regardless of their choice in distribution methods. Because, if an Anime Studios choose TV they will lose money due to fansubbing and if they choose another form of distribution they will lose money because alternative methods of distribution "can't" be as lucrative as TV?


As far as the exclusivity period goes, I have to agree with dtm42 that it isn't so much a government imposed regulation, but a stipulation put in place by the TV stations when contracting out air time.

While I feel the exclusivity period is fairly crippling I can see the reason why TV stations would want it in place. TV stations depend on advertisements to turn a profit, how valueable a TV station's advertising time slots are is based on the amount of viewers, and the amount of viewers is based on the availability of the product elsewhere. In other words, if consumers could get the product somewhere other than TV then a large number of viewers would probably be lost.

I believe that the Movie industry has a similar exclusivity period when a movie airs in theaters. A lot of my friends go to the movies, not because they want the theater experience (in this age of High-Def widescreens and theater-grade surround sound systems a "theater experience" could be achieved in your living room), but simply because they don't want to wait until it becomes available on DVD, Blu-ray, or HD-DVD. The theaters profit off of human impatience. Plus, the amount of ticket sales and consumer reviews can be a good indicator of how much demand there will be for a physical release of the product.

In your closing statment you said...
Quote:
I'm not 100% sure if the industry is really that restricted as you suggest, but if it is then it definitely needs break free of those chains and get online as fast as possible.


I wasn't trying to say the industry was extremely restricted, merely that the Service could offer a way to cirvument TV's exclusivity period and still provide consumers with the benefits they're used to getting from a TV airing.

I'm also somewhat confused with this closing statement, as your stance seems to be rather ambiguous. It appears as if you are simultaneously for and against both TV and online distribution. Your last paragraph seems to be saying that the Studios need to break away from TV broadcasts and side with online distribution... yet in your opening paragraph you seemed to be saying that distribution methods other than TV would not work. Despite mutliple readings of your post I'm still uncertain, perhaps I'm just misinterpretting something. Could you clarify this at all?



To dtm42: It was neither ShadowTrader nor myself that first brought up the issue of exclusivity periods regarding TV broadcasts. This issue was first brought up by Tempest on page 4 of this forum thread so all credit for it's addition to this debate is owed to Tempest.

You said...
Quote:
Either the television stations must waive the 30 day period (possibly for a fee or a cut to any profits the show makes elsewhere), or a new television station must be set up by an alliance of production studios. This would be hugely expensive, but such a station could cater to demands of Anime fans better, without the domineering presence of existing stations. It would also be easier to provide feedback from one station than many mainstream stations.


It's unlikely that the TV stations would be willing to waive the exclusivity period, as it gives them quite an advantage. Trying to avoid the issues inherent with TV stations by making a new TV station would be very difficult. Not just because of the massive expense of such a project. The new station would have to be able to compete against the "big time" TV stations. This new station would also have to find a way to get both the consumers and the Studios interested in supporting it.

These issues are some of the things I'm hoping to address with the proposal, especially in it's most recent incarnation. Mainly by offering a competitive alternative to TV that provides what TV does and more. Plus, if consumers watch a product through the Service it would be quick and easy to provide detailed feedback.

Do you have any other thoughts on how the restrictions of TV broadcasts could be circumvented and the consumers could still get the benefits they're used to getting from TV? It's definitely a pretty big issue to address.

As for your apology about going off on a tangent about fansubs, there is no need to apologize. I didn't consider any of what you said to be a "tangent". Fansubs are a major topic of conversation lately, most likely due to that interview. Besides, discussion of fansubbing is an essential step to finding a way to address it's effects on the industry.

You had said ...
Quote:
I think the aim of my argument was to show how fansubbers could be used as a cheap source of labour to do Stage 2 and 3. As Tofusensei said, he has had a decade working at making fansubs, and therefore he has as much - if not more - experience than most professional translaotrs out there. I thought that such a cheap but experienced talent base would be a great place to start.


I suppose in a way fansubbers are, in a sense, a form of cheap labor, kind of like volunteer / charity workers. They freely, and willing, do a job that "professional" translators only do for money. I agree that their experience and talents could be used to help the Anime Studios by creating speedsubs and full subs. Although, It wouldn't be possible, or beneficial, to try to force fansubbers into such a relationship. The only way something like this could work out would be if the fansubbers are willing to take part and if they also benefit from such a relationship. I'm hoping that the Service's rewards of fast feedback, "fame and glory", and a chance to help Anime Studios will be enough incentive for fansubbers to take interest in the idea. Sadly without a fansubber's insight on this idea, it's all just speculation. (Personally I think it would be amazing to have the Studios and fansubbers in a mutually beneficial relationship. I don't believe that it's an impossible goal. Not an easy goal to be sure, but not an impossible one either.)


In your closing statement you said...
Quote:
I will admit that what the service needs (among other things) is reliability. Relying on fansubbers who are contracted on a good-faith agreement is risky, especially when the need to beat the speed subbers is paramount. Therefore, I concede that - initally, at least - the service should have it's own team contracted to do Stage 2 and 3.


Aye, reliability is crucial. While I don't feel that fansubbers are untrustworthy, it would be virtually impossible to convince a company (especially when profits are at stake) to agree to any deal relying on a good-faith agreement.

The part about having the Service doing Stage 2 and 3 with an in-house team is incorrect. My apologies if I gave you the wrong idea about that. The Service would be in charge of hosting products, gathering marketing data based on sales and usage, and handling users accounts / transactions. The Anime Studio that owns a given product would be responsible for deciding if a product would recieve subs, dubs, etc. as well as handling the resources and personnel necessary to perform these updates. Sorry for any confusion about that.


To NathanBum & AznJazz: Ha ha. Actually it's based more around the structuring of Steam. Wink Would an updated Neflix dedicated to anime really be a bad thing though?


To ShadowTrader:
You commented that
Quote:
is it not the role of government to promote competition? So even if it is the broadcasting companies and not the government that require this exclusivity as you say, shouldn't the government step in and deregulate the industry to ensure fair competition?


True, the government does have a role in promoting fair competition. This is quite a large subject to tackle though, and would stray far off topic.

Instead of trying to find a way to get TV stations to change their ways, why not devise an alternative to using TV stations?


To GrdAdmiral: Interesting. I was unaware that's how it was handled. Guess the saying "you learn something new everyday" wasn't a lie afterall. Surprised
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:42 am Reply with quote
I realise just how hard it would be to set up a new station. But the present practice is not only inefficient, it is also harmful. The Japanese television stations have too much power, in my opinion. I wonder what would happen, though, if enough major studios threatened to do so. Perhaps they could get concessions out of the broadcast stations without having to go ahead with their threat. Or perhaps they could implement a Japanese version of the service, available only to Japanese people. Anime would not be broadcast on television (or at least it would not have to be), and instead streamed online. I do not see why there could not be two services, one Japanese and one international.

If there can be 2chan and 4chan, one for Japanese and one for the rest, I do not see why two versions of the service could no exist.

Ah, just my thoughts.
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Labbes



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 890
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:25 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I realise just how hard it would be to set up a new station. But the present practice is not only inefficient, it is also harmful. The Japanese television stations have too much power, in my opinion. I wonder what would happen, though, if enough major studios threatened to do so. Perhaps they could get concessions out of the broadcast stations without having to go ahead with their threat. Or perhaps they could implement a Japanese version of the service, available only to Japanese people. Anime would not be broadcast on television (or at least it would not have to be), and instead streamed online. I do not see why there could not be two services, one Japanese and one international.

If there can be 2chan and 4chan, one for Japanese and one for the rest, I do not see why two versions of the service could no exist.

Ah, just my thoughts.


Hm, I like your idea (And more or less everything that has been posted here) very much, but this threat includes taking very high risks, and it is not always clear who will really "win" that "fight", if you allow these bad metaphors. If the studios/distributors really get most of their money from TV contracts, then such a threat could ruin them if the TV channel (Or whatever) decides to not air anything they produced. Of course, this could lead to massive losses for the TV channel, too, but I don't think it could ruin them that easily.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:03 am Reply with quote
Labbes wrote:

Hm, I like your idea (And more or less everything that has been posted here) very much, but this threat includes taking very high risks, and it is not always clear who will really "win" that "fight", if you allow these bad metaphors. If the studios/distributors really get most of their money from TV contracts, then such a threat could ruin them if the TV channel (Or whatever) decides to not air anything they produced. Of course, this could lead to massive losses for the TV channel, too, but I don't think it could ruin them that easily.


How very insightful. Yes, the television stations could last longer, and no Anime companies would wish to pick a fight with the hands that feed them, at least without victory being assured.

However, how is the situation now? I heard somewhere (and we all know how good memory is) that production companies have to pay the television stations to have the right to have their Anime broadcasted. That seems strange to me, and I don't trust it. After all, the station is already getting the advertising money.
I think that the argument went that studios have to recoup all costs (including paying the television networks) through DVD sales, and that is why Japanese Anime DVDs are so expensive (the price is higher, I recall, but with fewer episodes per disk). I have no idea if it is right or wrong.

I do believe that the method of getting Anime out to the masses is obsolete at best, at worst it is manipulated to allow the stations to assert great control over Anime. I am not a conspiracy theorist by trade, but I wonder some times, about the inefficient nature of things.
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NathanBum



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Dallas, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:44 pm Reply with quote
This is a good idea; therefore it will never happen in America. As you know, in America it is against the law to have good ideas, and if you attempt to get it published it is a felony.
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ShadowTrader



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 231
Location: NJ
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:35 pm Reply with quote
Master Lee wrote:

I'm also somewhat confused with this closing statement, as your stance seems to be rather ambiguous. It appears as if you are simultaneously for and against both TV and online distribution. Your last paragraph seems to be saying that the Studios need to break away from TV broadcasts and side with online distribution... yet in your opening paragraph you seemed to be saying that distribution methods other than TV would not work. Despite mutliple readings of your post I'm still uncertain, perhaps I'm just misinterpretting something. Could you clarify this at all?


My stance is exactly what it has been since my first post, that the industry is not in trouble and just looking for more money.
I also believe that the exclusivity period prevents the industry from being fast enough to compete with fansubbers. Thus your distribution system is a "catch 22" as you say, because without going on air they miss core revenues and if they do go on air then they hurt potential DVD sales and future sales revenue because of losses due to fansubbing.
Thus the ultimate solution just comes by simply maximizing ones profits and minimizing the opportunity cost. The best way is to create better and better anime that stay on TV longer and at the same time bring in continual sales. Hopefully in the long run this will pay off as western cultures will become more open to the medium and overseas sales and licenses will bring in more revenue and marginalize the losses due to fansubbing.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:51 pm Reply with quote
ShadowTrader wrote:

Thus the ultimate solution just comes by simply maximizing ones profits and minimizing the opportunity cost. The best way is to create better and better anime that stay on TV longer and at the same time bring in continual sales. Hopefully in the long run this will pay off as western cultures will become more open to the medium and overseas sales and licenses will bring in more revenue and marginalize the losses due to fansubbing.


Unfortunately, the better and more popular an Anime, the more likely it is to be fansubbed. Which doesn't help revenues.

Better Anime is always appreciated, but it won't solve this problem. What is needed is a smarter distribution system.

That is my 2 cents, anyway.
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Master Lee



Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 47
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:41 pm Reply with quote
To dtm42:
dtm42 wrote:
I wonder what would happen, though, if enough major studios threatened to do so. Perhaps they could get concessions out of the broadcast stations without having to go ahead with their threat. Or perhaps they could implement a Japanese version of the service, available only to Japanese people. Anime would not be broadcast on television (or at least it would not have to be), and instead streamed online. I do not see why there could not be two services, one Japanese and one international.


If such an event were to occur the odds of getting any consessions would depend on how important the rallying groups (in this case Anime Studios) were to the TV stations financial stability. In America, (I can't comment on other nations) such a threat would likely just be laughed at by TV stations. Where I live there is very little anime on TV. What little there is airs around the same ackward hours that most infomerrcials do, which is usually from 12pm to 5am. If anime airred at peak air times and brought in a lot of viewers then the TV stations might be a bit more willing to concede to demands. Imagine, for instance, if all the companies involved in making sports broadcasts decided to band together and demand a change of some kind. The Super Bowl has advertising slots that cost millions of dollars. This would be a major impact on the TV stations. Anime, at least where I live... not so much.

As for the comment about having a Japanese and international version of the service available, assuming that you're talking about the Service I propsed, shouldn't be too hard to pull off.

There probably isn't even a need to have two seperate Services. The video game service known as Steam supprots 18 languages. The program consumers download is able to display it's interface in any one of these 18 languages.. This is possible because the program is really just a graphical "front-end" / browser utility that allows the consumer to connect to the network of servers where all the product content information is stored.

In this way everyone can browse products in whatever language they chose without the company needing to have seperate / custom services in each nation.

Having people worldwide connecting to the same source for products does bring up the issues of different pricing, censorship laws, taxation, etc. in different parts of the world.

On the bright side, this also shouldn't be much of an issue. Steam addressed this problem by having item availability and pricing displayed differently to each consumer based on their world location. For example: If a game sold through Steam costs $30 dollars in America and $25 in Canada, and I log in... I would see it listed as $30 dollars since I'm from America.

I feel that the proposed Service could handle these issues in a similar fashion. Consumers download a "gateway" program that has an interface capable of a variety of langauges. They would then use this program to connect to a network of servers where all the anime products would be stored. Things such as what products are available, pricing, and advertisements shown when watching for free would be determined by the world location of the consumer.


To Labbes: I agree with you. If Anime Studios depend on TV for a lot of their profit, then it would be quite risky to take a stand against the TV stations, unless the Studios had a high chance of success. It would have a chance to succeed in a place where the TV stations also depend largely on the Studios for profit, although I don't know if any such places exist.

In the odd event that the proposed Service came about, it would give Anime Studios an option other than TV. Granted, trying the Service would also be a risky move. But, if the Studios didn't make a complete shift and instead only sold a few products through the Service, while selling the bulk through TV, the Studios would have a chance to "test the water", so to speak.

If the Service proved to be lucrative, these Studios could either phase out TV and take up just using the Service or, more likely, continue to spilt their products up amongst the Service and other methods. (My guess is that, shows that are guartanteed hits would be good to market via TV while shows that may not be as "main stream" would likely be better sold through the Service.)


To dtm42:
dtm42 wrote:
Yes, the television stations could last longer, and no Anime companies would wish to pick a fight with the hands that feed them, at least without victory being assured.


This is what I was trying to say in my above comment to Labbes. I see that you not only beat me to the punch, but said it in far less words. Smile

dtm42 wrote:
I heard somewhere (and we all know how good memory is) that production companies have to pay the television stations to have the right to have their Anime broadcasted. That seems strange to me, and I don't trust it. After all, the station is already getting the advertising money.


That part about "we all know how good memory is" feels like salt in the wound after my misquoting of Tempest regarding the exlcusivity period. Laughing

What you recalled about that person's comments sounded strange to me as well, so I did some quick online research. According to one site...

"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) is the largest broadcasting corporation in the world. The BBC carries no advertising. It is instead funded by an annual license paid by all households owning a television."

Perhaps the person who you heard that from lived in a region that operates similarly.

Whether profiting from a household tax as opposed to advertisements would result in production companies having to pay for the right to broadcast... I couldn't really say.


To NathanBum:
NathanBum wrote:
This is a good idea; therefore it will never happen in America. As you know, in America it is against the law to have good ideas, and if you attempt to get it published it is a felony.


Ha ha. How true! I regret to inform you but, it's also against the law in America to point out flaws in America and it's operation. So I believe we're both commiting a felony.

On the bright side, if we both end up in the same 5 x 5 cell we'll have a lifetime to discuss the finer points of America and it's legal system. Wink


To ShadowTrader:
ShadowTrader wrote:
My stance is exactly what it has been since my first post, that the industry is not in trouble and just looking for more money. I also believe that the exclusivity period prevents the industry from being fast enough to compete with fansubbers. Thus your distribution system is a "catch 22" as you say, because without going on air they miss core revenues and if they do go on air then they hurt potential DVD sales and future sales revenue because of losses due to fansubbing.


I can imagine the industry is looking for money, that's what all businesses do. Even if the industry is doing fine and just looking for money... would it really be a bad thing as long as how they go about getting this money also provides more benefits to consumers?

A "catch 22" is only possible if there is an illusion of choice present, where no actual choice exists because these choices result in a self-defeating and repeating loop.

The statement that my proposed Service is a "catch 22" is only a true statement if Anime Studios do, in fact, lose money by not going on the air.

If Studios can compensate for this potential lose in revenue then the statement is no longer true and the Service is no longer a "catch 22".

Currently there are two ways I can think of to compensate for the potential to lose money by not airing on TV.

The first way would be, if the Service could completely compensate for the possible lose of profits. This would mean the Service would need to be able to act as a replacement for a TV airing. Not only by resulting in sufficient profit for the Studio, but also by fulling the needs that consumers are accustomed to having fulfilled by TV.

While the Service could have freely watchable products (in exchange for watching ads), which would be similar to a TV broadcast, and other benefits, like more freedom of choice for consumers, it is highly unlikely that in the early stages of the Service's existence it could completely replace TV airings. It would only be plausible if the Service was widely accepted by both the Studios and the consumers.

The second way I can think of would be like I mentioned in my response to Labbes, above. Instead of a Studio fully switching from TV airings to the Service, they could do a little bit of both. If a show is of a type that's currently or historically popular, to either a large or simply diverse consumer base, then the Studio could go with a TV airing. If the show is a more minor release or of a somewhat obscure type / style it could be sold via the Service.

By doing this the Studio could lessen a large amount of the risk involved. The Studio's "sure thing" titles would generate the bulk of the profits, by way of TV, while allowing them to also check out the profitablity of the Service using "iffy" anime titles.


ShadowTrader wrote:
Thus the ultimate solution just comes by simply maximizing ones profits and minimizing the opportunity cost. The best way is to create better and better anime that stay on TV longer and at the same time bring in continual sales. Hopefully in the long run this will pay off as western cultures will become more open to the medium and overseas sales and licenses will bring in more revenue and marginalize the losses due to fansubbing.


I agree that maximizing profits and minimizing oppurtunity costs is essentially. I also like the idea of having better anime created. However, I don't feel that relying solely on better anime being aired on TV would result in increased profits.

I agree with dtm42's comment that "the better and more popular an Anime, the more likely it is to be fansubbed."

If a large quanity of fansubs are created quickly then the demand for the product will already be met and the Studios will have to eat those loses. It's unlikely that fansubs will ever be done away with so this will always mean a chance of lost profits, unless of course fansubbing could be "harnessed" to become a beneficial part of the anime industry. (I hear that, in the VHS-tape days, fansubbing was extremely beneficial to the industries establishment of a foreign consumer market.)

There is also the issue of production costs. Depending on where the TV broadcast is to occur the product may need to be subbed or dubbed prior to the airing. Depending on how much "better" the anime is made there would likely be a longer, and more costly, production period. This would mean more money that needs to be gained to turn a profit and longer time before the Studio can begin to do so.

This could also have the drawback of there being less variety of anime titles. Studios wouldn't be able to take a risk on a less "main stream" title because they wouldn't have a high degree of certainy that the production costs could be recouped. In the event a product totally bombs upon aring, especially if it was a very costly one that the Studios thought would be a sure-fire success, the Studio will have to eat all the production exepenses.

Please, don't take all this as an insult or an attack against your opinions. I support the idea of having better anime titles released. I'm just not sure how it can be done without a lot of risk on the part of the Studio.

Any thoughts on how something like this could be accomplished without too much increased cost and risk?


Returning to the early part of that last quote, I have some ways (that weren't mentioned before) that the Service could maximize profits and minimize oppurtunity costs.

TV only airs a product for a limited time. They always rely on fresh new things to keep viewer interest. Re-airing an "old" anime could be more coslty than profitable. DVD manufacturers only provide a product for as long as there are steady buyers, or at least enough to outweigh the material costs of making the product. The only "old" animes that tend to get re-released on DVD are popular titles and because of this are probably already widely available for free, though illegally, through peer-to-peer networks. In the end, old animes usually either disappear into obscurity or are only available through select, and usually expensive, alternatives. Because of this the Anime Studio's eventually can't turn a profit on an old product.

If the product was sold through the Service then it would continue to be available and profitable even as it becomes older. Granted the DVD release of the product available through the Service (assuming the product had one) would probably be disconinued over time, but the online "soft copy" version of the product would live on. It would take up relatively little real-life physical space to store the online "soft copy". By having this product still available to consumers years down the road you'd gain increased profits from those seeking nostalgia or those who just want to see the title that got their favorite artist off the ground.

(For example: Lensman and Robot Carnival were the first anime titles I ever saw. I've tried, without success, to find a DVD release. Lensman never had a DVD release as it wasn't too well liked, causing its release only to go up to Laserdisc technology. Robot Carnival was apparently quite popular, but will probably never have enough demand to warrant a DVD release in this day and age. If the proposed Service existed and these titles were available I'd buy them in a heartbeat.)

There are also some products that, while profitable, may not be profitable enough to warrant a large scale TV airing or DVD release. These titles would be perfect for sale through the Service. There wouldn't be any material costs or potential costs / restrictions of TV broadcast to contend with. The marketing of the product through the Service could be far cheaper than TV ads, printed ads, etc.



To dtm42:
dtm42 wrote:
What is needed is a smarter distribution system.
Hopefully by working together in this "collective think-tank" we can all manage to devise one.

Besides... we're a bunch of random people on the the internet... how could we NOT come up with something smart? .... don't quote me on this. Razz

Master Lee
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ShadowTrader



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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Location: NJ
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:44 pm Reply with quote
Has anyone stopped to think why there are fansubs in the first place? Isn't it because there is a huge demand for newly aired anime? So if studios are aware of this demand from overseas markets and it is SO much less profitable for them to release, liscense, and sell anime months after it already aired in the domestic market, why haven't they come up with a profitable solution? Why are we so worried when the industry isn't in any state of panic to find a solution? The obvious reason is that it really isn't as big a deal as the departure of Geneon led you to believe. I'm pretty sure the industry makes tens of millions every year and will continue to do so into the future as this demand grows and the medium expands to be a global norm. A "better" distribution system that cannot beat fansubbers on speed and at the same time be aired in the local market just doesn't make sense. Its either you air it on TV and at the same time release an official sub online, or you haven't solved the problem. Obviously this is probably impossible with the all the rules and regulations, but if its not bothering the industry why should I be so worried?
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Master Lee



Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 47
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:19 pm Reply with quote
To ShadowTrader: This is all purely conjecture, but here's my thoughts on the matter.

Even though there isn't a publicly noticeable panic from the industry it doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't concerns and actions being taken behind the scenes. (I mention this possibility only because the company I work for is doing something similar. There are layoffs, cutbacks in hours, lack of incoming work, etc. and yet the higher ups in the company still try daily to save face and make our customers believe that we're "on the up and up".)

It's possible that the "protectionism" issue mentioned a good bit back in earlier posts has something to do with it. Maybe there is a need / desire for change, but the companies involved are too set in their ways or afraid of the risks involved with new ideas.

If the industry is, in fact, in trouble then it's possible that even if some companies came up with a possible solution they wouldn't have the funds to embark on it.

To be honest, I myself am not fully convinced the industry is in trouble. Some of the recent occurences do seem worrisome, but there hasn't been any official statement of "Dear Fans, it's been fun but, we're all shutting down." Most of the doomsaying can likely be attributed to human negativity and hearsay.

So why did I even bother to start this "proposal" topic in the first place, right? Well... same as was stated back on the first page of this thread. I had just recently gotten into anime, and even more recently found this website. The first I article read here was the "Open Letter to the Industry". The article seemed to imply that the anime industry could fall. I was pretty concerned about this, so... I created my initial proposal. It was more of a panic reaction than a thorough researching of the issue.

After having more time to read up on the topic, I relaxed a good bit and took up a more neutral stance on the possibility of the anime industry falling apart.

I continue the topic because some people seem interested in the concept, I love problem solving, and I also enjoy intellectual debates. I also feel that being prepared in the event something bad does occur is a good idea. (I don't believe my house will catch fire, but I've got smoke detectors just in case.) Although, my primary reason is that, even if there isn't a problem with the industry, I believe a new distribution system could still be beneficial. Not just for the industry, but for the consumers as well.

ShadowTrader wrote:
A "better" distribution system that cannot beat fansubbers on speed and at the same time be aired in the local market just doesn't make sense. Its either you air it on TV and at the same time release an official sub online, or you haven't solved the problem.

If what Tempest said about exlcusivity periods is correct, then having a product air on TV and at the same time be released subbed online wouldn't be possible, as this would violate the exclusivity period.

The Service is designed to attempt to beat the fansubbers in speed. An online release of a product could be available worldwide on the same day. Studios could also quickly create a speed subbing or even work on an official sub. The product could then be updated / patched on the fly. Even if the Service doesn't manage to beat the fansubbers most, or all, of the time it still has the potential to profit because of it's other features and it's conveinence.

If fansubbers took up interest in the Service's intergrated fansub community... then it wouldn't even be necessary to beat the speed of the fansubbers. Fansubbing would be a direct benefit to the Studios, the Service, and the Consumers. Meanwhile, the fansubbers would gain fame, glory, respect, and possibly even some money.

As for your last sentence about why you should be worried... that's entirely up to you to decide. If you feel that the industry is perfectly fine then my guess is you wouldn't really have a reason to be worried.

(Regardless of whether or not you're worried, your posts, and the posts of everyone else, on this thread have helped to point out potentially major isses that would need overcome as well as flaws and drawbacks in the proposal of the Service. I really appreciate these contributions since they have gradually helped to shape the Service into a somewhat more stable form.)
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Labbes



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 890
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:19 am Reply with quote
I will just split up your post, so it's easier to answer.
ShadowTrader wrote:
Has anyone stopped to think why there are fansubs in the first place? Isn't it because there is a huge demand for newly aired anime? So if studios are aware of this demand from overseas markets and it is SO much less profitable for them to release, liscense, and sell anime months after it already aired in the domestic market, why haven't they come up with a profitable solution?

Yeah, I was wondering that, too. I guess it's more or less the same problem the automobile industry faced years and years ago (At least here in Germany). They made lots of profit, but they could have made more if they tried to. Still, because of the huge profits, they didn't need to - until the day came when the profits declined. They had to rethink, then.
Probably the same thing is happening with the - at least R1 - anime industry now.

Quote:
Why are we so worried when the industry isn't in any state of panic to find a solution? The obvious reason is that it really isn't as big a deal as the departure of Geneon led you to believe. I'm pretty sure the industry makes tens of millions every year and will continue to do so into the future as this demand grows and the medium expands to be a global norm.


A fact is, that the anime industry in Japan didn't do very well last year. This means not that it's in a crisis, only that it could come to a...breaking point? I am no native speaker so I can't find the right word here, sorry.
Additionally, the market in, say, Europe, could be far bigger if they rethought they pricing - they are probably not doing well here, either. And I mean I can't believe that they will last more than 10 years or so.

Quote:
A "better" distribution system that cannot beat fansubbers on speed and at the same time be aired in the local market just doesn't make sense. Its either you air it on TV and at the same time release an official sub online, or you haven't solved the problem. Obviously this is probably impossible with the all the rules and regulations, but if its not bothering the industry why should I be so worried?


I think the methods to beat fansubbers are there and Master Lee's ideas on how to get them to their "Fame and Glory" stuff are quite good.
If you get the "stage 2" release out half a day after the airing, you beat fansubbers and every "real" fan who wants to know how the series goes on will watch it on TV (or tape it).

The only other thing that comes to my mind is excluding regions, ANN had that link to the streaming service for North Americans only. I am not sure if this could work in this specific case (Probably not, because it could be pirated again), it's just a thought, after all.

EDIT: And I don't think the Anime industry will decline, but only titles that will absolutely popular (Or have a high chance to) will be released. Basically the same has happened with PC games and even the cinemas (most of them)
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Master Lee



Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 47
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:38 pm Reply with quote
Labbes wrote:
I don't think the Anime industry will decline, but only titles that will absolutely popular (Or have a high chance to) will be released. Basically the same has happened with PC games and even the cinemas (most of them)


I know what you mean about the PC games. The genre of most games is clear now-a-days. Rarely do games deviant from the tried and true styles. Just thinking about it makes me nostalgic for older games... back when they were more unique or at least had some quality that was entrancing.

I still have a copy of the original X-Com: Ufo Defense, Starcontrol 1 & 2, and Master of Orion 2 installed on my computer. If I could locate a copy of Full Metal Planet I'd likely have that intalled too.

If anime were to become more "specialized" and less unique I'd likely loose a large portion of my interest in it.
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ShadowTrader



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 231
Location: NJ
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:47 pm Reply with quote
animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2008/funimation-entertainment

I don't know if you read that, but I thought it was kind of interesting. The fact that they decided to sell episodes in order to get fans interested in buying the whole series seems like an interesting idea, but in my opnion its kind of futile since it already can be seen for free and if anything the fansubbers should get credit for drawing attention to the anime.
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Master Lee



Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 47
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:21 pm Reply with quote
To ShadowTrader: Ah thanks for the link. I actually hadn't noticed this article. I read it just now and I pretty much agree with what you said.

I do think it's good to see a company taking some initiative and trying something new. I'm not so sure I like the fact that they said are mainly using this method to help drive up DVD sales. I did like this statement though "...is being used to test how the North American anime market will respond to releases of multi-episode sets instead of four or five-episode individual disks. If it works, Funimation intends to release other future series the same way." I think they'll have a lot more success selling complete boxsets in American than individual disks.

Thanks again for bringing that article to my attention. I was probably too caught up with this article (animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-03-21/gonzo-works-to-be-streamed-simultaneously-with-airing) about GONZO.
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ShadowTrader



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 231
Location: NJ
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:28 pm Reply with quote
Haha, its like they read my posts and said "Yea lets do what he said."
But now it makes me wonder what happened to all that 90 exclusivity talk? Does it only apply to the domestic market? But this kind of cool I hope other animators follow suit, I'd really to see more officially streaming subs as soon as the original show airs in the domestic market. Finally the industry is moving in the right direction.

Shit now that I think about it, I should sue for intellectual property theft. Bastards...
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