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Chiibi wrote:

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Yato is kind of taking advantage of her, she is almost like his god.

I don't think Hiyori cares all that much.

Another point for pretty much being his god.
Worship Hiyori, goddess of kindness and sick wrestling moves!

Yeah, yeah. Yato is just kind of broken because of his past and can be fixed with the power of friendship. I am not saying that he is a hopeless case, he does have some wisdom and his lifestyle is almost saintly. Although judging by his fantasies that last part may not be by choice, he really does need to learn about inflation and financial planning.

The fact that this show regularly lists sexual desire as "sin" is repulsive, because those fake "morals" cause a lot of needless suffering to people, especially younger ones who are brainwashed by media like this into thinking that there is something "impure" or "dirty" about it (yes, even minor notions like in this anime affect people; more subconsciously, rather than consciously). In reality, there is nothing more moral than sexual desire. It has to be celebrated and respected as source of life.

^
True, and it feeds into something I mentioned before; that regalias are slaves.

We are told that if they prick their masters even once then they are immediately banished. That means in their centuries-long lifespans they must always keep their emotions under control. They must never desire anything, never feel homesick, never fall in love, never feel intense grief or anger or sadness.

To feel strongly about something - to experience intense emotion, whether positive or negative - is part and parcel of being human. It's a curse at times but it's also a fantastic gift that is rightly cherished. Regalias may be 'ghosts' but they're still capable of emotion and are therefore still undeniably human in terms of their soul. But they aren't allowed to be human, and are treated as property that gets thrown out the first time it bothers its master no matter the circumstances.

That's pretty sick.

I wonder if that is one of the reasons for Japan's low teen pregnancy rate.

dtm42 wrote:

True, and it feeds into something I mentioned before; that regalias are slaves.

We are told that if they prick their masters even once then they are immediately banished.

Now you're just trying to have your cake and eat it too. The regalia are "slaves" to their god. But also, if they screw up they'll be "punished" by being released from their enslavement to that god? I mean, which is is man? You can't really have it both ways.

You're also misstating the facts by the way. #1) We've only been told that Tenjin treats his regalia this way. It's evidently up to the individual god. Some, like Yato will try and work through it. And #2) Tenjin's regalia wasn't just banished for "feeling strongly about something". It was for actually going so far as trying to kill herself. I hardly think that qualifies as some integral aspect of being human.

ikillchicken wrote:

Now you're just trying to have your cake and eat it too. The regalia are "slaves" to their god. But also, if they screw up they'll be "punished" by being released from their enslavement to that god? I mean, which is is man? You can't really have it both ways.

You're trying to simplistically state a nuanced situation.

First of all, there's no doubt that they are slaves. Would you think it normal if your boss could read your mind, take control of you whenever he wanted, make you kill whomever he wanted, forcibly make you work for him in the first place if you hadn't had a previous job, and stop you from leaving his employ with no higher power for you to protest to? That is not employment, that is slavery, plain and simple.

Secondly, it is indeed a punishment to be banished. Leaving the service of a god means certain danger and the possibility of being an outcast if you can't find a new master who will accept you. Think of it like being a type of ghostly ronin.

Regalia have powers of their own like the barrier which can handle small fry. But they cannot use their strongest abilities unless they transform, which they can only do if a god calls their name. As Far Shore beings, regalia are always in danger of being attacked or corrupted (like Yukine was with that thing on his back) and desire the protection of a god.

It has been made abundantly clear that no masterless regalia who is able to find a new god would choose to go it alone. Regalia can find relative safety only by entering into a lopsided contract where they don't have any power and must be completely obedient, which is a form modern-day slavery. To release a regalia from the contract without their consent is to throw them to the wolves unless they can find other "employment". Therefore, to be free of one god a regalia must expose themselves to danger.

And in case you bring up Yato's previous regalia, given the speed of her joining Tenjin I get the feeling she already knew where she wanted to go before she quit. Also, Yato is hardly the basis for how we should judge the majority of gods to act. Most importantly, that scene of her leaving was clearly played for laughs, and so should not be taken seriously. The dramatic scene of the regalia begging Tenjin for forgiveness should make it clear how big a punishment being banished is for a regalia.

I say it is a punishment large enough to overcome a person's natural distaste for being a slave.

ikillchicken wrote:

You're also misstating the facts by the way. #1) We've only been told that Tenjin treats his regalia this way. It's evidently up to the individual god. Some, like Yato will try and work through it.

Wrong on the first point. We are told that a regalia stinging a god is extremely serious and that most gods would have done the same as Tenjin. Yato is unusual in this respect.

ikillchicken wrote:

And #2) Tenjin's regalia wasn't just banished for "feeling strongly about something". It was for actually going so far as trying to kill herself.

She was explicitly stated by the other regalia to have been banished for the stinging. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Also, we don't know that she tried to kill herself; those blood drops are hardly evidence of that. You are reading a lot into what could just be symbolism. As for the line which goes something like "hurting others or themselves", that last part could easily refer to being corrupted. You assume it means physical harm but I contend that the worst kind of harm a ghost has to face is not physical but spiritual.

Even if - and that's a big if - she did try and kill herself, how is that worth being punished for it? It's a completely effed up system.

ikillchicken wrote:

I hardly think that qualifies as some integral aspect of being human.

I don't see how this follows or how it is relevant.

I think you are being a little harsh. Something that seems to have actually be implied and kind of forgotten here is that the god is essentially sharing their godliness with their Regalia. They mentioned that gods have trouble knowing what is right and wrong, so they need Regalia who were humans to know that, in exchange the god gives the deceased person a name and place. But when the Regalia stings its god from having impure thoughts, they are essentially corrupting that god, not only in the dark patches, but in a god's eye as beliefs that might also infect their Regalia, which are their moral compasses.

Yato seems a little unfazed that he thought that he could make him Yukine stronger through it, other gods who want to keep themselves pure would think otherwise. I wonder in terms of corruption, some gods could consider it like spitting on the god, that their dark emotion dirtied them. They bit the forbidden fruit, and must not taint the garden.

Do we know if a regalia could survive on his/her own for a prolonged period of time after parting ways with their god? Was that mentioned at some point in the show? I always assumed they'd have to find a new master take them in as soon as possible to in order to keep their sanity or even life, but I don't know if that's necessarily true. Regalia like Nora might go 100% freelance. Or does she now belong to the masked god of calamity full time, as she's also wearing a mask?

Their existence certainly is blessing and curse at the same time, as they do get a second chance in something resembling life, but they have to become weapons without much left of what it meant to truly be alive as a human being.

dtm42 wrote:

Would you think it normal if your boss could read your mind, take control of you whenever he wanted, make you kill whomever he wanted, forcibly make you work for him in the first place if you hadn't had a previous job and stop you from leaving his employ with no higher power for you to protest to?

No, that's not normal. In fact, it's almost as abnormal as if I got an awful, contagious, potentially fatal rash every time my employee had a nasty thought. You're technically right that a god could refuse to un-name regalia and prevent them from seeking other employment. But clearly this isn't an issue at all in practice. Nobody wants a disharmonious relationship between god and regalia. It screws them both over. Refusing to un-name one who wants to be un-named is just mutually assured destruction as demonstrated quite clearly by the Yato/Yukine situation. There are no regalia being forced against their will to work for a god they don't want to. To do so would be suicide.

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Wrong on the first point. We are told that a regalia stinging a god is extremely serious and that most gods would have done the same as Tenjin.

They said, and I quote "Stinging a god is very serious. [Tenjin] has always upheld this rule." They say absolutely nothing about other gods. Quite to the contrary, they imply that this is Tenjin's rule. This is a fact. Unless you're watching like...a completely different translation maybe, then you are factually incorrect.

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Also, we don't know that she tried to kill herself; those blood drops are hardly evidence of that.

She had a blood soaked bandage on her wrist. They explicitly said: "To harm others or yourself is to betray the master who named you" at which point they cut to a close up of her bandaged wrist. If you're going to deny that this was what what the show was conveying then you're just being obtuse.

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Even if - and that's a big if - she did try and kill herself, how is that worth being punished for it? It's a completely effed up system.

I'm not saying it doesn't suck for her. It's also somewhat understandable though given how easily corruption can spread to other regalia. And in any case, even if you want to say Tenjin's rule is too harsh, you are still, once again, massively overstating things. Nothing about this indicated that they aren't allowed to ever feel any strong emotion, let alone that they "aren't allowed to be human" as you so dramatically put it. Regalia live a tough life. As far shore beings they have to be careful. Corruption is always a danger they face. They show acknowledges this fully. But it's hardly anywhere near as dire as you make it out to be.

Actually, I gotta kind of agree with dtm42 on this one. As portrayed by the show, being a Regalia kinda seems like it would blow. We've seen successful examples of a god-Regalia relationships. Bishamon's peeps seem happy to hang around her fineness. Tenjin's harem seems relatively happy to stay in his fly temple crib (with the exception spoiler[of the one who just got the boot, of course]). Daikoku probably sniffs Kofuku's panties at every opportunity.

But yeah, the system seems kinda harsh. It seemed to indicate that spoiler[Tenjin's chick was infected by Yukine the A-hole's bratty temper tantrum so it wasn't even really her fault. But she still gets the Banishment Stick.]

Blood- wrote:

Daikoku probably sniffs Kofuku's panties at every opportunity.

Which he would have to be a sociopath for that not to be considered unmoral and sting her. A sociopathic regalia who saw everything they did as right would probably be pretty useful, which is probably why Nora is useful.

Blood- wrote:

But yeah, the system seems kinda harsh. It seemed to indicate that spoiler[Tenjin's chick was infected by Yukine the A-hole's bratty temper tantrum so it wasn't even really her fault. But she still gets the Banishment Stick.]

I think the implication was more along the lines that when one person makes a fuss of how unfair they feel their situation is, other people may start to think of their own. But it is not fair to blame the god for it, unless he is misusing them.

Blood- wrote:

Actually, I gotta kind of agree with dtm42 on this one.

...

Are ya sure?

Because what you're saying here is a lot more in line with what I'm saying. I mean, I'm not denying that they have a potentially harsh and perilous life. But that's miles apart from them being slaves against their wills who aren't even allowed to feel strong emotions. As you yourself said, the vast majority of regalia seem to be in pretty successful relationships. And the literal one that wasn't was at least given the freedom to pursue a different master.

I guess what I mean is that dtm42's negative description of the mechanics that under lie the god-Regalia system are basically correct. The fact that there are god-Regalia relationships that are successful is more of a function of the show simply presenting that to us as an established fact as opposed to something that necessarily makes rational sense.

The problem is that they aren't even allowed to have malicious/nasty/sexual thoughts they might not even act upon and could possibly overcome by force of will or strength of character. If the gods partly need the regalias as former human beings to keep them connected to the human world, denying them something very basic (and very human) - like feelings of desire, greed, and envy, even sadness or self-pity - does not seem like the most sensible way to go. (Also, Yato does not seem above greed and envy himself.) If only the act itself would sting the god, fine, let the regalia show some gratitude for not being (completely) dead yet, but the mere thought of wanting something one cannot have gets branded a sin one can be discarded for? That's pretty cruel.

Agreed. I think that was part of what dtm42 was pointing out.

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