Forum - View topic

The List - 7 Brother-Sister Romances That Went Too Far

Slashman wrote:

In the end, if you don't like these themes, then stop watching/reading the material.

The problem is that it's no longer a niche, or even a genre, it's anime mainstream. The one-sided unrequited inappropriate relationship is an anime comedy short-cut. Brothers crushing on sisters, sisters crushing on brothers, teachers and student, parents and children, it's a cheap and quick way to get a laugh.

There are so many shows that I enjoy for 99% of the runtime, and just have to roll my eyes and look past the stupid incest comedy

Key wrote:

And BTW, religion has nothing to do with it. I'm non-religious and liberal-leaning on most things and I don't see it as acceptable.

So WHY do you think it's not acceptable, if no harm is done? If it's for the same reason some people might like the color red but puke to the color blue, then that's fine because that would at least be an answer as to the 'why', after all tastes can't be argued with. But if it's not, then what's the rationale, seeing as you don't come from a religious background?

Okay, now I'm really curious. What was Kirino's deal, anyway? Why was she secretly obsessed with otaku stuff, and why did she have a thing for her brother? Can someone do the spoiler thing and clue in those of us who haven't seen Oreimo?
Thanks (I'm not being facetious, I'm really, honestly curious about an anime I haven't seen that had a major influence on this aspect of otaku culture).

I don't want to get into religious debates here, but the story of Lot was definitely not presented in a positive light, as far as I can remember.

Hellsoldier wrote:

Power imbalance is an abusive relationship, thus abuse. The niche cases should not be judged the same as abuse (''Innocent untill proven guilty''). Also I was dealing with horizontal incest (siblings) between people old enough. Parental incest and sibling incest involving a less mature individual and a dominator already are filled with problems... To put it mildly.

Yes, innocent until proven guilty applies to the point of proving it exists. However, unless your head's so far up your ass you're seeing daylight, most cases of incest feature a major power imbalance; like I said earlier, the acceptable niche case people keep pushing is incredibly small, something that can be considered an affirmative defense at best.

Slashman wrote:

Yeah except for the fact that the author is the one in control in the first place.

True, but breaking characterization to make the story turn out as intended is usually considered bad writing. If you can't get to your desired ending without sending somebody off the rails, you need to reconsider the ending.

I don't want to get into religious debates here, but the story of Lot was definitely not presented in a positive light, as far as I can remember.

Blanchimont wrote:

Key wrote: And BTW, religion has nothing to do with it. I'm non-religious and liberal-leaning on most things and I don't see it as acceptable. So WHY do you think it's not acceptable, if no harm is done? If it's for the same reason some people might like the color red but puke to the color blue, then that's fine because that would at least be an answer as to the 'why', after all tastes can't be argued with. But if it's not, then what's the rationale, seeing as you don't come from a religious background?

In my case, simple gut reaction. I have two younger full-blood-related sisters who were raised in the same household as me, and to my best recollection I've never - not even in the prime of my horniest teen years - felt the slightest bit of sexual interest in either of them. In fact, the very thought of it is repugnant to me, and I project that onto incestuous relationships elsewhere.

Frankly, I don't see why this kind of reaction is so hard to understand for avid incest advocates like you. No, it's not based on reason at all, although there is established psychological research which supports why that develops.

So let's just drop this angle, okay? Nothing that you or others say is going to change my mind on this, so think whatever you like about me for not seeing it as a cool thing. I will not engage further on this line of discussion.

Now, that doesn't mean that I won't tolerate stories with incest if they're done well enough, like Koi Kaze. (Simoun is another case where an incestuous relationship is handled well, although it's also a relatively minor plot point that isn't dwelt on much.) However, I don't tolerate it when it's just used as a tease or cheap tactic. Oreimo kinda did that, though my issue with that series was at least as much how the two spoiler[deliberately went around ruining their relationships with just about everyone just so they could play like they were a couple]. It was stupid.

Now to keep it all on the topic of anime, I am still on episode 2 of Simoun, and I still feel rather cold about it. I love complex and layered work, so I have to ask: How long until I feel more excited about Simoun, in your opinion?

Also I've been postponing Key the Metal Idol for a while. I love Serial Experiments Lain, and such. So is it a good match for me? I'd like your thoughts.

It's a work of elegance, grace, and multilayered meaning, one which says a lot but rarely says it bluntly.

Hellsoldier wrote:

Now to keep it all on the topic of anime, I am still on episode 2 of Simoun, and I still feel rather cold about it. I love complex and layered work, so I have to ask: How long until I feel more excited about Simoun, in your opinion?

Simoun is a very slow starter. The scene in ep 2 (I think?) where the main girl escorts her friend to The Spring gives the first taste of what the series can do, and there's a sequence in ep 3 or 4 (forget which) where a couple of the priestesses encounter a soldier from one of the kingdoms trying to attack them that, IMO, is quite loaded with deeper implications. I didn't fully warm to the series myself until episode 6, which I think is the turning point (it's where Sybilla Aurea finally climbs out of her funk), and found it consistently great from that point out. Its last 3-4 episodes I'd stack up against just about any anime series ever made in terms of quality.

However, this is not by any means a fast-moving series. It's a work of elegance, grace, and multilayered meaning, one which says a lot but rarely says it bluntly. The one incest element in it doesn't come up until past the halfway point IIRC, and again, its mostly contained within one episode even though its impact can be seen well before that point if you watch the series a second time and know what to look for. And big trivia point: it's a series where all the male roles - even the adult ones! - are voiced by female seiyuu, and that was done intentionally.

Quote:

Also I've been postponing Key the Metal Idol for a while. I love Serial Experiments Lain, and such. So is it a good match for me? I'd like your thoughts.

I'd suggest reading my relatively recent review on it. There's really nothing else like Lain out there, and the same can be said for Key.

Gemnist wrote:

I should also add that incest is known to cause numerous health problems, most notably that children born out of incest will often have brain disorders or birth defects.

Are you implying the only reason two people have, or SHOULD have sex is to procreate...?

Are people so ignorant about child sexual abuse that they don't realize that real-life incest almost always falls into that category, or does otaku wish fulfillment "incest" stories that don't reflect reality in the slightest really make people think incest is usually between two consenting emotionally mature people in real life? I have much more sympathy for the "don't confuse fantasy with reality" argument than the "it's not that bad, even in real life" argument. Read a book about child abuse survivors and the long term affects of severe trauma before making that claim. It's an impossible to prove devil's advocate argument that any kind of real life incest is based on a healthy relationship, when there is so much evidence to the contrary.
(I personally recommend Judith Herman's Trauma and Recovery, which is often used as a psychology textbook and draws parallels between all different types of trauma, as a starting point on the topic of trauma in general.)