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Angel M Cazares
Joined: 23 Sep 2010
Posts: 5424
Location: Iscandar
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 Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:35 pm
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@John Hayabusa
I have nothing against CGDCT. In fact, I have greatly enjoyed several shows that fall under that category. I am using the world disrespectful because you are trying to fit Revue Starlight into a category that does not really represent what the shows is about.
If Revue Starlight did not have the surrealistic auditions I would be opposed to calling it CGDCT. It is not easy to categorize Revue Starlight under a single category because it is a combination of genres. I would use words like Utena-like, light drama, surreal, musical, slice of life.
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#HayamiLover
Joined: 22 Jul 2018
Posts: 796
Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:43 pm
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@John Hayabusa First of all, nobody told you that CGDCT shows are bad. Just like nobody told you that a deep story is a must for a show. Take it easy. Moreover, the Gakkou Gurashi that I have mentioned, is title from Manga Time Kirara Forward.
Secondly, universal generalization is not the right choice, especially when you forget that the shows you mention do not have the slice of life element as one of the main themes. I doubt that RS was created as a light-hearted show for complete relaxation and viewing after a hard day's work.
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John Hayabusa
Joined: 30 May 2012
Posts: 1270
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:05 pm
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@angelmcazares I wish you could have used a better word aside from "disrespectful". Sadly for you, Revue Starlight falls under that CGDCT category too, even if it is not that cute as it seems to be. If you take away all those surreal auditions and deep story, it shows the girls practicing/performing stage plays and building relationships through those activities. Something that gives off the not-cute, slice-of-life part of that genre you are complaining about. Same deal with Love Live which is an idol series. It does have plot and drama but it also has them doing their duties as idols. The CGDCT-ness is more apparent though as all the girls have the exact same base face with different hairstyles and eye colors for distinction. So you may have merit about Revue Starlight not being that genre as it is all not that Cute. However, it still has that Girls Doing Things part and without that part, the story would not even be possible to begin with.
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#HayamiLover
Joined: 22 Jul 2018
Posts: 796
Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:11 pm
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@John Hayabusa If you continue to claim that any all-female anime with cute girls and a focus on their relationship = CGDCT, ignoring everything that we say to you, taking it as a seruous rivalry, then further conversation is meaningless.
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vonPeterhof
Joined: 10 Nov 2014
Posts: 729
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:58 pm
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| John Hayabusa wrote: | | That scumbag director Yamada said in an interview that lesbianism is just an adolescence, a phase in a young girl's life. |
Got a source for that?
| John Hayabusa wrote: | | Heck, Yuri on Ice made Girls Love a bigger laughing stock. Expect lesbian skaters? Nope, you get gay skaters instead. Purely (and hilariously) personal but I bet that female director of YoI may have a vendetta against yuri and named her series that way to make it look bad. |
It takes only a cursory knowledge of katakana to know that the "Yuri" in "Yuri!!! on Ice" is a completely different word from the name of the genre (ユーリ vs. ユリ, which is more commonly written 百合 or ゆり anyway). Besides, didn't Yamamoto's other two series have actual lesbians in them? (I haven't seen them, so only going by what I've heard)
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#HayamiLover
Joined: 22 Jul 2018
Posts: 796
Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:25 am
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| vonPeterhof wrote: | | Got a source for that? |
He probably means her standard answers to the question "is there yuri on this show?" She has a tendency to respond that the franchise don't be a "subtle romance" and the suspiciously intimate and "homoerotic" relationship between girls is "adolescence". Of course, franchise fans quickly turned it into a meme.
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vonPeterhof
Joined: 10 Nov 2014
Posts: 729
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:32 am
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| #HayamiLover wrote: |
| vonPeterhof wrote: | | Got a source for that? |
He probably means her standard answers to the question "is there yuri on this show?" She has a tendency to respond that the franchise was not supposed to be romance, and the suspiciously intimate and "homoerotic" relationship between girls is "adolescence". Of course, franchise fans quickly turned it into a meme. |
I'm aware of all this. I was wondering if John had a link to a specific interview where she outright states that lesbianism only exists as an adolescent phase.
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John Hayabusa
Joined: 30 May 2012
Posts: 1270
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:37 am
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| vonPeterhof wrote: | | Got a source for that? |
https://ultimatemegax.wordpress.com/2016/01/26/animestyle-007-sound-euphonium-interview-director-tatsuya-ishihara-series-director-naoko-yamada-part-2/
Truth be told, it was not about lesbianism. She said that a particular scene in Episode 8 was not yuri but rather, it was "adolescence." She felt that way when directing Tamako Love Story too. Thanks to that interview, fans made a big deal out of that. Just another person who thinks yuri is a joke and will never amount to anything beyond subtext. Also another hint that Japan hates lesbianism.
| vonPeterhof wrote: | | It takes only a cursory knowledge of katakana to know that the "Yuri" in "Yuri!!! on Ice" is a completely different word from the name of the genre (ユーリ vs. ユリ, which is more commonly written 百合 or ゆり anyway). Besides, didn't Yamamoto's other two series have actual lesbians in them? (I haven't seen them, so only going by what I've heard) |
Oh now the plot thickens. Some female authors and directors do not seem to have a high opinion of yuri (girls love).
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vonPeterhof
Joined: 10 Nov 2014
Posts: 729
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:18 am
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| John Hayabusa wrote: | | Truth be told, it was not about lesbianism. |
Okay, glad to hear we're on the same page on that at least.
| "John Hayabusa wrote: | | Oh now the plot thickens. Some female authors and directors do not seem to have a high opinion of yuri (girls love). |
I'm sorry, but how exactly does your response follow from what I said? I just said that those works have actual lesbians in them, did you automatically assume that the portrayal is negative and dismissive? Or is portrayal of "actual lesbians" at odds with your definition of "yuri (girls love)"? I genuinely don't follow.
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forexjammer
Joined: 01 Dec 2017
Posts: 127
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:28 am
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"We're all giraffes, but we can learn to be thoughtful giraffes who don't pit women against each other for our amusement."
Oh man, this is the stupidest thing I've ever read from ANN as of yet.
The biggest reason the show is made is for Otakus to appreciate stage plays or some sorts, and it works. Most people that went to the stage play admits they've never gone into one before.
Edit: I also realize most people seems to be watching from HIDIVE translation. Don't. It's crap. Do yourself a favor and watch from dedicated fan subbers, they translates the lyric too.
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John Hayabusa
Joined: 30 May 2012
Posts: 1270
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:31 am
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| vonPeterhof wrote: | | I'm sorry, but how exactly does your response follow from what I said? I just said that those works have actual lesbians in them, did you automatically assume that the portrayal is negative and dismissive? Or is portrayal of "actual lesbians" at odds with your definition of "yuri (girls love)"? I genuinely don't follow. |
So her previous works have lesbians but the one work that put her on the map has "Yuri" in its title, which is about male skaters making homoerotic subtext to each other. Also, even with "Yuri" being written in katakana, it has the same pronunciation as "Yuri" in hiragana/kanji. I already said about this in one of my earlier posts here. Her fujo anime indirectly made yuri (girls love) a bigger laughing stock. I wonder if there is an interview of her speaking about the title itself and offending yuri fans.
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vonPeterhof
Joined: 10 Nov 2014
Posts: 729
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:03 am
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| John Hayabusa wrote: | | the one work that put her on the map |
Highly debatable. Michiko & Hatchin appears to have a cult following, and Lupin III: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine is an entry into one of the longest running manga and anime franchises in existence.
| John Hayabusa wrote: | | Also, even with "Yuri" being written in katakana, it has the same pronunciation as "Yuri" in hiragana/kanji. |
My whole point was that it doesn't have the same pronunciation. ユーリ is Yūri with a long ū, while ユリ/百合/ゆり is yuri with a short "u". The misunderstandings of some people who only saw the Latin spelling without the macron were cleared within minutes of the original announcement of the series (in fact some people kept expecting a predominately female cast even after the misunderstanding was cleared, but before the first PVs were shown, precisely because of Yamamoto's past works and her high reputation among female and/or LGBT fans).
| John Hayabusa wrote: | | I wonder if there is an interview of her speaking about the title itself and offending yuri fans. |
The only ones still offended are those who don't know how the Japanese language works*. Which is okay, nobody is under an obligation to know that, but that hardly sounds like a concern worth addressing when discussing a work primarily marketed to Japanese audiences.
*(or maybe also those who consider the very existence of BL offensive)
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2245
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:10 am
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| forexjammer wrote: | | "We're all giraffes, but we can learn to be thoughtful giraffes who don't pit women against each other for our amusement."
Oh man, this is the stupidest thing I've ever read from ANN as of yet.
The biggest reason the show is made is for Otakus to appreciate stage plays or some sorts, and it works. Most people that went to the stage play admits they've never gone into one before.
Edit: I also realize most people seems to be watching from HIDIVE translation. Don't. It's crap. Do yourself a favor and watch from dedicated fan subbers, they translates the lyric too. |
I'm honestly curious why you say that. The giraffe blatantly states that he is a stand-in for the audience and is a representation of the audience's desires, thus rendering us, the viewers, culpable for getting enjoyment out of the Top Star system, a system that the show itself repeatedly denounces as greedy, selfish, and inherently destructive for all but the winner.
Which is basically what the review itself says. So unless the fan translations are wildly different, I don't get understand your objection.
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John Hayabusa
Joined: 30 May 2012
Posts: 1270
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:29 am
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| vonPeterhof wrote: | | Highly debatable. Michiko & Hatchin appears to have a cult following, and Lupin III: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine is an entry into one of the longest running manga and anime franchises in existence. |
Too bad none of those matter when Yuri on Ice has been a worldwide phenomenon for years and it has made an impact on real-life figure skating.
| vonPeterhof wrote: | | The only ones still offended are those who don't know how the Japanese language works*. Which is okay, nobody is under an obligation to know that, but that hardly sounds like a concern worth addressing when discussing a work primarily marketed to Japanese audiences.
*(or maybe also those who consider the very existence of BL offensive) |
The problem here is that this is a fujoshi-pandering series that has indirectly made people and fans constantly mocking yuri due to the series' name, regardless of yuri fans being fully aware of it. Yurikuma Arashia author Akiko Morishima noticed that and made genderbent fanarts of the male skaters to alleviate that.
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vonPeterhof
Joined: 10 Nov 2014
Posts: 729
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:26 am
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| John Hayabusa wrote: |
| vonPeterhof wrote: | | Highly debatable. Michiko & Hatchin appears to have a cult following, and Lupin III: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine is an entry into one of the longest running manga and anime franchises in existence. |
Too bad none of those matter when Yuri on Ice has been a worldwide phenomenon for years and it has made an impact on real-life figure skating. |
Whatever. Just saying, Sayo Yamamoto was known as an anime "auteur" long before YoI, and I'm not even sure that all people who liked YoI know her name even now (Kubo seems to be getting outsize credit). If your definition of "put on the map" is "made known to me personally" then I don't know what to tell you.
| John Hayabusa wrote: |
| vonPeterhof wrote: | | The only ones still offended are those who don't know how the Japanese language works*. Which is okay, nobody is under an obligation to know that, but that hardly sounds like a concern worth addressing when discussing a work primarily marketed to Japanese audiences.
*(or maybe also those who consider the very existence of BL offensive) |
The problem here is that this is a fujoshi-pandering series that has indirectly made people and fans constantly mocking yuri due to the series' name, regardless of yuri fans being fully aware of it. Yurikuma Arashia author Akiko Morishima noticed that and made genderbent fanarts of the male skaters to alleviate that. |
So is your argument still that the show was named "Yuri!!! on Ice" deliberately in order to troll yuri fans? There are far more likely and compelling reasons for naming two main characters Yuri, and therefore having "Yuri" in the name.
This is already way too much YoI discussion for this Revue Starlight thread, so feel free to PM me if you want a more detailed response.
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