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John Casey wrote:

Can I get my initial question answered now?

How many pictures were you thinking of? o0

Gewürtztraminer wrote:

I don't think this is lolicon, as much as full on moe. The episode that my quote came from was the Prince of Pasta #8. Olga expresses the desire to make them all ballerinas. Out of all the stuff that I believe gets the moe label falsely, you can not deny its application here.

Really nothing sexualized at all except in the fairly tame minds of the girls.... or the viewer's imagination. (leaving season 2 and Triela out of the discussion for now)

That being said, it is obvious that the whole gist of the series was to get you wanting to nurture and protect these quasi young "girls" who are in such a mind blowingly bad situation, to get you upset at the handlers that were unfeeling towards their plight, ect.

Creepy, oh yes. But I think it works in the series favor. Throw in the Del Gados opening, and I was hooked.

Interesting view. I was never one to buy into the moe vibe, though (my favorite Kanon girl was the one who was actually able to carry a conversation) which is probably why I thought Triela's episode was more funny than anything else.

Again, I still think it still qualifies as loli under the most minimum of standards. You may disagree with those standards, but that's a conversation for another time (and why I sorta miss Chicks on Anime)

erinfinnegan wrote:

Not all lolicon has sexual content. That's part of the whole point of lolicon manga... but I'm going to have to talk to an expert about this.

I am somewhat surprised by a lack of a standard definition of lolicon. I mean, I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.

I will consult some sources and get back to you all on this one.

*facepalm* There most definitely is a standard definition of lolicon. That definition is sexual content featuring young girls. Yes, it has to be sexual to be lolicon.

It would be nice if Funimation, Sentai Film, and VIZ give number of sales for anime titles. I think it is important as to popularity and knowing if there will be a second part release. The anime companies should be more open then keeping it a secret.

It seems like Initial D 4th Stage did pretty good when one look at the Amazon ranking on the day it was released.

I have to agree with the people who've questioned the criticisms of Gunslinger Girl. I never saw it so I don't know definitively what it's like. However, suffice to say that I am surprised that you're so quick to blast it as being creepy. I'm pretty much as anti-loli as they come but even I must wonder if you're being a bit loli paranoid. I would expect the show to be intentionally at least somewhat disturbing. Based on my impression of the show though and it's lack of any apparent pandering, I would have thought it was merely the kind of appropriate disturbing rather than the 'skeevy' kind as you call it.

On a different note, regarding Aristotle:

In many ways I find writing supersedes all else. Especially if you expand the category to include the overall effectiveness of storytelling and execution. After all, no matter how good the rest a story can always be marred by poor execution. Then again, without the other elements being effective, execution and writing is somewhat moot.

Character is clearly very important. It's very tough in my experience to create an effective story without good characters. I find too that decent characters frequently make otherwise questionable works decent. It's not impossible however to use other elements to tell an effective story without particularly good characters. Plot is also very important although it is certainly possible to tell an effective story with a limited plot if the characters are strong. (For instance, Cowboy Bebop). Music is a fantastic tool if used effectively. At the same time though it's not especially detrimental when not used effectively.

I don't think spectacle can be simply described is as special effects either. I would say that bad spectacle relies only on special effects. There is also more effective spectacle that utilizes a variety of things such as visual style and atmosphere in addition to effects. Music could arguably be included as part of spectacle as well rather than an element of it's own. Combining these elements effectively can in some cases be just as important and effective as character or plot. (For instance: Akira).

For these reasons, rather than a ranking, I would suggest that you need one or more of the three: Character, Plot and Spectacle plus Execution to convey it properly. I don't know that any one of the three is inherently more important assuming they are done equally well.

initial d stage 4 isn't shelf worthy? what?

On Gunslinger Girl, I'm kinda with Erin on this one. Which is not to say I don't enjoy the show, rather I don't think Erin's objections should be dismissed as easily as some people are trying to do.

Let me back up: My exposure to the franchise came in bits and pieces, a couple episodes here, a few chapters of the manga there. Finally Funimation put the entire second season up for streaming, and when I was financially well enough off I bought the first on DVD. In any case, the story quickly got under my skin, and the cast are perhaps the only anime characters I've ever been moe for (in the "I want to protect them" sense).

However, I received a rather rude shock when I discovered a doujinshi Yu Aida had created. The story featured a young girl who was an assassin and her older male handler. This was clearly something of a dry run for Gunslinger Girl. Unlike Gunslinger Girl, however, the two protagonists have sex. With a sinking heart I realized that Aida probably wasn't writing these stories because he had some message or commentary on society, but simply because he got off on them.

Gunslinger Girl may not cross that same line, but its heart isn't so far away. While it may not be clear in the anime adaptations, in the manga the relationship between the girls and their handlers, while more or less chaste, is in at least some instances certainly not platonic.

I still like Gunslinger Girl. I have only to watch an episode or read a chapter - or indeed start talking about it online - to get pulled back into its story. It is pure tragedy porn - things start bad for the girls, and with spoiler[their limited lifespans] they can only get worse. It taps into the desire of men to have someone dependent on them that they can take care of and love, like many seinen manga, and I don't believe these impulses are inherently evil. However, it seems to get a thrill from the romantic tension in the relationships between young girls and old men, and that knowledge will prevent me from ever enjoying - if that's the right word - this show as I once did.

I love Gunslinger Girl, it's one of my favorites. I have to disagree with Erin as this I do not consider this lolicon as none of the girls in Season 1 are sexualized in anyway at least IMO. I can't say anything about Season 2 or the OVA since I have yet to watch them, but having read some of the manga I would still continue to say that none of the girls are sexualized in any way at least with my view point.

erinfinnegan wrote:

Penguin_Factory wrote:

I was also annoyed that the girls didn't really act like children, which took all the drama out of the story. Every interesting question brought up by the scenario- how do you get someone that young to kill people? What sort of effect would that have on them mentally? How would it effect the adults responsible?- was explored at an extremely superficial level or simply glossed over.

Battle Angel Alita Last Order has some stuff about child soldiers and how wrong it is to make kids kill.

I mean, unfortunately if you consider somewhere like Somalia, it happens in real life.

Look. All these talks about the ethics of children soldiers ... Go. Watch. Now and then, here and there.

Gunslinger looks totally utter sh*t compared to that show. (No offense but seriously ...)

Now and then, here and there has to be one the best anime I have seen. It asks the questions about children soldiers and how they grow into killing machines.

Just watch the main character Shu turn into a child violent for revenge. Or Crispin Freeman's Tabool turns into a killer. One of the best I have seen.

If you want an in depth anime, please please check it out. Or even how real it really is.(Even in a fantasy setting) Do we know any countries that fight over water?

(Please. Just go watch it Erin Finnegan or anyone else.)

And yes. I too hated Gunslinger girl. I have the first volume of anime and manga. One I gave away the other I'm throwing out.

But I thought the show was a little loli - but to me loli and moe are the same. They appeal to the male readers because men have this little in built thing where they see this cute little girl and they have this feeling to protect her. (Not all men but I definitely see it around my friends) So companies think, "Hey these appeal to the male customers." and they do. Thus they use them.

So when I see a male orientated show with little girls, it is an appeal to the males. Because they can't help but have that overwhelming feeling of protection/ cuteness.

But heck. That is what I have observed. You can bash me all you want but moe appeals to men. Loli appeals to men. One has more sex than the other. Hence why most people call little girls running around "Lolis".

Dakaran wrote:

Gunslinger is an excellent piece of anime. Again, a review who feels the need to protects itself from public's opinions and the bangwagon of the cases put on the spotlight by the law. I won't read anymore reviews from ANN you guys if you keep that attitude and don't make true reviews. This is a disgrace to reviewers when you are biased in opinions and your review just shows it from the start. The worst is you share many anime I've got but can't neutraly describe Gunslinger.

/disappointed

-Dak

Ah, don't be bothered by him. Maybe he hasn't realized that if he doesn't like a review then he doesn't have to read them.

Nor that the fact a review is a review. Not what everyone wants to hear. I don't think people gave a fair review to black jack (until I read that volume and realized that was a crap one) so I was polite.

But yelling insults never got anyone anywhere, except dead.

By the way, I think his (or her) post is funny and think if that he thinks that is great anime then he hasn't seen much. BUT yep. My opinion and I not going to be mean to him for that.

But please Mr Dak. Be nice next time.

And if you want you can always try and get a review up if you try really hard. But then your review will be as biased as this one so ...

Last edited by Dakaran on Tue May 25, 2010 8:01 am; edited 7 times in total

willag wrote:

Dakaran wrote:

Gunslinger is an excellent piece of anime. Again, a review who feels the need to protects itself from public's opinions and the bangwagon of the cases put on the spotlight by the law. I won't read anymore reviews from ANN you guys if you keep that attitude and don't make true reviews. This is a disgrace to reviewers when you are biased in opinions and your review just shows it from the start. The worst is you share many anime I've got but can't neutraly describe Gunslinger.

/disappointed

-Dak

Hey, take a look at this, Dakaran:

Quote:

As a piece of entertainment, Gunslinger Girl achieves exactly what it sets out to do. It attempts to be slightly-to-very creepy, and it is. The viewer is supposed to think, "this is so wrong," and Gunslinger Girl is very effective in eliciting that reaction. In that respect, it's a winner.

Unfortunately, Shelf Life ratings are based on my opinions.

Unfortunately, Shelf Life ratings are based on my opinions.

Unfortunately, Shelf Life ratings are based on my opinions.

UNFORTUNATELY, SHELF LIFE RATINGS ARE BASED ON MY OPINIONS.

I've only been here a month, and I've already gotten the point of these articles. There is going to be a bias. Shocking, I know. Instead of complaining about a given quality on the article that's not going to change, you could just state on why you disagree with what's being said. That way, when people come in to read the threads, they can get more variety of opinions. Variety is good, it helps people decide if they'd like the series or not.

Besides, reviews are subjective anyways. Want a neutral review? Fine, show us how it's done. If you disagree with what Erin is saying, how about you actually give a review on why the series is shelf-worthy instead of making pointless complaints.

I know how to read and pointing out it was from opinions was already set and clear before you did. As for the review, I'm someone who has been a writer for years now, and I can do that if you're so incline to ask. Razz

The anime itself, Gunslinger, is rather blunt and plunges directly into the controversial problem of the government using children as weapons of war who have been turned into mindless assassin dolls because of brainwashing, "brothers" influence and a rigid control system over their freedom and behaviors. It's not a series to watch if you dislike seeing a child in the worst condition and can't get the point it's part of the story. Because it will disturb the viewer at some point you got to keep an open mind. Some stuff is pretty rough and it's fine how it is shown to me who started watching with an open mindset but I guess it's just not everybody. :p

By the end of season 2 I knew a lot about the girls and their past. A few of them created a bond sister-like so that they could live on when it got too rough. The government control aspect over the girls by "brothers" is very present in the series, something that can't be sent away with so many girls part of a psychological experiment.

The mystery surrounding the their training and lives was really interesting but sometimes shocking. It felt like old war times when they could do whatever they wanted to them and those girls were stripped of any human rights. It had a feeling of Gestapo's methods, and very abusive emotionally towards the children part of the experiment. That was one of the reason for the brainwashing, to keep them in perfect form to kill and never object to their orders.

Ian K wrote:

However, I received a rather rude shock when I discovered a doujinshi Yu Aida had created. The story featured a young girl who was an assassin and her older male handler. This was clearly something of a dry run for Gunslinger Girl. Unlike Gunslinger Girl, however, the two protagonists have sex. With a sinking heart I realized that Aida probably wasn't writing these stories because he had some message or commentary on society, but simply because he got off on them.

A majority of mangaka have connections to circles or have drawn doujinshi themselves (usually to "get in" the business). If you wanted to start second guessing intent, then you'd probably eliminate a good majority of properties. Personally, I don't think Aida is "getting off" on his work.

But Erin, wow... Gunslinger Girl = Lolicon

Is it the art? Or that Henrietta wears a skirt? Surely the brainwashing of the girls doesn't qualify them.

Perhaps you're under the notion that "moe" and "Lolicon" can be used interchangeably. I must tell you though, it's not really a good idea; mostly because it's not true. (despite what some people may tell you) The girls are young, and undeniably moe, but saying Lolicon is a step too far.

Of course, if you don't care and keep your opinion (like Strike Witches), then this is a new low for ANN.

Last edited by -kf on Tue May 25, 2010 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total

Fallen Wings wrote:

But I thought the show was a little loli - but to me loli and moe are the same. They appeal to the male readers because men have this little in built thing where they see this cute little girl and they have this feeling to protect her.

So when I see a male orientated show with little girls, it is an appeal to the males. Because they can't help but have that overwhelming feeling of protection/ cuteness.

So what you are saying here is that you associate loli with mens' desire to protect little girls? So to you any male with a cute little sister, or daughter, with a protective instinct towards them, is by your definition, loli?

Here are a couple quotes from Wikipedia regarding the word loli:
In Japan
Generally, lolicon is a term used to describe a sexual attraction to younger girls or girls with youthful characteristics. In other words, it can refer to actual or perceived pedophilia and ephebophilia.

Outside Japan
In the West, lolicon refers to anime or manga that contains sexual or erotic portrayals of prepubescent or childlike characters
lolicon in the West is an indication that the material is overtly, even if not explicitly, erotic.

In other words the word loli has an implicit sexual meaning, and I think the majority of the people who see the word loli used to describe something, come to the conclusion that there are going to be little girls presented in a sexual way, or involved one way or another in sexual situations.

So you have essentially lumped almost every male with a daughter, or little sister, into the same category as pedophiles, or any relationship between a man and a younger girl where the man has a protective instinct towards her, as erotic. Frankly, your definition leaves a lot to be desired. Just because a word holds one meaning to you, doesn't mean it holds that same meaning for everyone else, nor is it adequate to describe something with your meaning when it means something very different to the large majority of the group you are addressing.

Last edited by Dakaran on Tue May 25, 2010 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total

Fallen Wings wrote:

erinfinnegan wrote:

Penguin_Factory wrote:

I was also annoyed that the girls didn't really act like children, which took all the drama out of the story. Every interesting question brought up by the scenario- how do you get someone that young to kill people? What sort of effect would that have on them mentally? How would it effect the adults responsible?- was explored at an extremely superficial level or simply glossed over.

Battle Angel Alita Last Order has some stuff about child soldiers and how wrong it is to make kids kill.

I mean, unfortunately if you consider somewhere like Somalia, it happens in real life.

Look. All these talks about the ethics of children soldiers ... Go. Watch. Now and then, here and there.

Gunslinger looks totally utter sh*t compared to that show. (No offense but seriously ...)

Now and then, here and there has to be one the best anime I have seen. It asks the questions about children soldiers and how they grow into killing machines.

Just watch the main character Shu turn into a child violent for revenge. Or Crispin Freeman's Tabool turns into a killer. One of the best I have seen.

If you want an in depth anime, please please check it out. Or even how real it really is.(Even in a fantasy setting) Do we know any countries that fight over water?

(Please. Just go watch it Erin Finnegan or anyone else.)

And yes. I too hated Gunslinger girl. I have the first volume of anime and manga. One I gave away the other I'm throwing out.

But I thought the show was a little loli - but to me loli and moe are the same. They appeal to the male readers because men have this little in built thing where they see this cute little girl and they have this feeling to protect her. (Not all men but I definitely see it around my friends) So companies think, "Hey these appeal to the male customers." and they do. Thus they use them.

So when I see a male orientated show with little girls, it is an appeal to the males. Because they can't help but have that overwhelming feeling of protection/ cuteness.

But heck. That is what I have observed. You can bash me all you want but moe appeals to men. Loli appeals to men. One has more sex than the other. Hence why most people call little girls running around "Lolis".

Dakaran wrote:

Gunslinger is an excellent piece of anime. Again, a review who feels the need to protects itself from public's opinions and the bangwagon of the cases put on the spotlight by the law. I won't read anymore reviews from ANN you guys if you keep that attitude and don't make true reviews. This is a disgrace to reviewers when you are biased in opinions and your review just shows it from the start. The worst is you share many anime I've got but can't neutraly describe Gunslinger.

/disappointed

-Dak

Ah, don't be bothered by him. Maybe he hasn't realized that if he doesn't like a review then he doesn't have to read them.

Nor that the fact a review is a review. Not what everyone wants to hear. I don't think people gave a fair review to black jack (until I read that volume and realized that was a crap one) so I was polite.

But yelling insults never got anyone anywhere, except dead.

By the way, I think his (or her) post is funny and think if that he thinks that is great anime then he hasn't seen much. BUT yep. My opinion and I not going to be mean to him for that.

But please Mr Dak. Be nice next time.

And if you want you can always try and get a review up if you try really hard. But then your review will be as biased as this one so ...

I can't let that one pass because saying I'm biased when I can analyze properly something in neutral grounds by just throwing feelings out of the window doesn't ring well in my ears. Also, I happen to have watched over 700 anime series, and so, when you are writing that I haven't seen much is false.

I'm a marathon type of viewer, so whenever I start a series I go from the start to finish in one shot for every series which include even One Piece, Bleach and Naruto or any anime 100+ episodes... yeah, One Piece was hella fun but with 428 episodes I had to watch one shot at the time it was a trip I could call one of a kind. I'm still following those anime series even now while I watch new ones weekly. I like to absorb the story elements and fuse with them as the anime gets the story together after each episode.

The Gunslinger Girl Blu-ray looks and sounds terrible. I'd recommend getting one of the DVD sets. It doesn't look too much better, but still. Save yourself money and the pain you would have to subject your eyes and ears to.

Last edited by Dakaran on Tue May 25, 2010 8:02 am; edited 1 time in total

luffypirate85 wrote:

The Gunslinger Girl Blu-ray looks and sounds terrible. I'd recommend getting one of the DVD sets. It doesn't look too much better, but still. Save yourself money and the pain you would have to subject your eyes and ears to.

Eh, I just bought them from rightstuff but haven't received it.. I hope it's good quality >.< At least on fansubs and Funimation website it was amazing.

luffypirate85 wrote:

The Gunslinger Girl Blu-ray looks and sounds terrible. I'd recommend getting one of the DVD sets. It doesn't look too much better, but still. Save yourself money and the pain you would have to subject your eyes and ears to.

Whine about the upscaled video all you want but the audio is most certainly an improvement over the DVD; I did an A/B comparison myself and the lossless track trumps the DD one in every way possible.

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