Forum - View topicOpinions on fansubs and HK pirate DVDs (ranting thread)
|
Goto page Previous Next |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
10円
Posts: 605 |
|
|||||
Although foaming at the mouth certainly wasn't the image I intended to portray, if that view helps keep you on here spouting platitudes then by all means please continue.
Once again another fansub proponent has tried to sell us on the tired old misrepresentation of any two viewpoints being equally worthy of consideration regardless of their justification and source. Justice isn't merely a philosophy, it's a right. Anime, however, is not a right; it's a luxury. And you, my friend, are one of the most confused people I've ever had the good fortune to debate anywhere. Like shooting fish in a barrel. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Zero89
Posts: 147 |
|
|||||
You know, you make a good point, and now that you mention it, when I do buy a series there actually is a little voice in the back of my head telling me that I could just get this for free (btw I'm 17)... but do you know what makes me buy the series anyway? The better resolution. The awe inspiring dubs. In short, the added bonuses that come with the DVD. I know I could just download the DVD rips, but as funny as this may sound to you, I think that downloading DVD rips is nothing short of stealing. At least with fansubs, the fansubbers spend a great deal of time translating the show, and reformatting it to make sense (as well as sound "correct"), and because of this, I feel that a fansub is more a derivative of it's Japanese counterpart, then it is an actual copy. So although it technically is derived from a licensed japanese show, it ends up as quite a different product; very much unlike a DVD rip. In a way, you could compare the difference to a person that creates a doujinshi, (uses someone else's Idea, but puts their own stuff into it as well) versus a person that merely copies the drawing and changes nothing. So to summarize, while I agree that it might be impossible to make us, our generation, feel it is our responsibility to pay for our entertainment, I do not believe that it is impossible to lure us into paying for a superior product... And for the people that claim fansubs are bad solely for the purpose that it's technically illegal, it's stealing, I have a question for you. Do you feel the same about 90% of the avatars on this site? I mean, if you break it down, it's essentially someone ripping a picture from a copyrighted product, and using it for their own use... |
||||||
|
||||||
Wandering Knight
 Posts: 94 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina |
|
|||||
Why do you put everyone into a single bag? Not all teenagers are the same. Not all anime watchers are the same. Many may feel remorse when buying something knowing they could be getting it for free, and many may not. This over-simplification of people's minds and actions is what is truly irritating me. As I stated before I don't mind being called a thief or a pirate, but don't throw everyone into a single bag thinking that "stupid is who stupid does". |
||||||
|
||||||
|
10円
Posts: 605 |
|
|||||
I don't think anyone is claiming that fansubs are bad solely because they just happen to be technically illegal. I think most folks here are willing and able to see beyond the letter of the law and discuss the greater issue at hand. As I already explained, I don't have any specific problem with copyrighted avatars and the reasons are very simple. 1. They do not encompass the bulk of the original copyrighted work 2. They can still serve as a catalyst for further legitimate purchases 3. It's not uncommon for the license holders to release some of them specifically for uncompensated consumer use As a result of these rather obvious distinctions I believe that the quasi-promotional use of minor components of copyrighted works should be expressly allowed by law or at the very least allowed in writing by the license holders. |
||||||
|
||||||
Steroid
 Posts: 329 Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be |
|
|||||
Well, that's not quite what I'm saying. There's no entitlement to the items themselves. There is an entitlement to share with others who are willing, no matter the effect on third parties. There is an entitlement to try to get exorbitant value in a deal. And most importantly, there is an entitlement to base one's arguments primarily on self-interest, not the law or the general welfare. As to the American law: if the pirates and I could railroad through a constitutional amendment saying that anime producers had to produce and deliver for free so much anime per year, should they accede, or engage in civil disobediance for the sake of their own freedom?
But how is it wrong? What do we suffer for it? The one other thing to remember is that if I am right, and the entitlement mentality is ok to hold, then it would be as wrong to condemn piracy as some claim piracy is, which is why both viewpoints should be expressed respectfully. This isn't a case of a righteous side versus an unrepentant crime cartel. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Zero89
Posts: 147 |
|
|||||
Huh?! You think I'm over simplifying people? I guess I can see how what I said could be interpreted that way, but I am well aware of the diversity between individuals and their ideas. And while I may have said "our generation", in the end, I can only speak of myself and the people that I know (that much should be assumed). I suppose it would be more accurate to say that in my experience, it may be impossible to get everyone, or even the majority of the people in our generation to feel responsible for buying things that entertain them. I guess this is the result of rushing through a post; how I wanted to say something, and what I actually said don't coincide. Eh. My bad... edit: I feel I need to elaborate on this, you see, the mentality that Zac described runs rampant in almost every one of my anime friends (who aren't filthy rich). I once asked them why they wouldn't even buy the series that they felt were awesome, and do you no what their reply was? Why would I waste my money on something I could get for free. Maybe it's just them, but I feel the people that feel a sense of responsibility to support the things they enjoy are the minority now a days, instead of the majority, and while I do believe that no generalization will ever be totally correct, they describes the masses. Last edited by Zero89 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:11 pm; edited 2 times in total |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Zero89
Posts: 147 |
|
|||||
Funny how 2/3 of your reasons could also apply to fansubs. 1. I'll give you that one. 2. So can fansubs... I don't think you can intelligently dispute that, but if you want to, I'm game. 3. Many anime companies, (or at least one is doing so with a lot of it's shows), are now showing promotional episodes to give people a sample of their product. So, are those distinctions really that obvious? But you're right, no one is saying that fansubs are wrong just because it's illegal. I just misinterpreted what you and a couple of other people were stating. Geez, I just shouldn't try to post when I don't have time, lessen learned. Last edited by Zero89 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
|
|||||
|
Zac,
I've got to say, that's a sadly fatalistic attitude. People were completely able to download music for free, using Napster and what not, before ITunes came along and utilized the situation for profit. Why should people pay for music,or TV shows, when it's still obviously so easy to torrent them?? (And it is) And yet, here's ITunes, making a boat load of money, giving people a product that they're paying for that they could be getting for free elsewhere. See, my take is that most people, when the product is easy to find and easy to use and at a "reasonable price" (whatever that might be), are happy to pay for a product and not be toeing/crossing that "illegal" line, regardless of age. ITunes is my major example. Of course, of course, of course there are still going to be people who download fansubs or DVDrips, but that's not the point. The point is for anime companies to realize larger profits than they're currently getting. Besides which, if anime companies were concurrently releasing, as an example, subtitle-only eps of certain current Japanese anime shows, then there would be no need to fansub them. Fansubbers tend to pick up shows that aren't getting fansubbed by others, or are getting fansubbed "badly", or when the Japanese show is far ahead of the American release. If these criteria are met by a legit company, there'd be no reason to fansub the show. Instead, what you'd be left with is a reduced fansubbing community that would be subbing truly "remote" projects-- getting things like YKK, or Emma, or My Daddy Long Legs, or anime shorts, or other older or obscure titles that aren't getting licensed over here to us. As for not wanting to watch anime on your computer being an argument against "legit" internet released shows-- I think people are misunderstanding the market. People who prefer to watch DVDs on their TV aren't going to download shows-- it's people who are dling fansubs who are watching eps on their computers already that is the market. People who either 1) already only watch DVDs, or who 2) don't know how to torrent, aren't going to be the ones who are going to dl legit future copies anyways. I also think its a rather skewed concept to assume that only "those kids" are dling fansubs. I'm 30 myself. Other posters have been in their 20's. Obviously there's a lot of tech savvy viewers in their teens who are dling fansubs, but I think you're making some very broad, incorrect generalizations when you go about demonizing an entire age group, which is essentially what you're doing. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
10円
Posts: 605 |
|
|||||
1. You admitted that this is already conceded, which should be the end of the story right here, but no, you still want to argue over the blatantly obvious. So be it. 2. Fansubs don't really leave you with anything substantial still to be purchased now do they? Once you already have virtually the same content as the legitimate release why on earth would you bother buying it all over again? Honor? Lazy, self-serving, entitlement-minded 'fans' have no honor, as this thread has already shown again and again. 3. Repeat after me: "Fansubs do NOT stop at one promotional show or portion thereof." I know this, you know this, and everyone else knows this. Thus, your attempt at making any sort of point is easily shown to be completely erroneous. What is so complicated about this that you still can't seem to figure out where to draw the line? You're not arguing with some kid, I've already seen everything the pro-fansub camp has to say about why they steal and it's all as equally absurd as your own bizarre attempt at a flawed rationalization. NEXT?! |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
|
|||||
Just as a side note-- your logic is flawed here, although very succinct and efficient in other places. You're basing your opinion on a not necessarily true precept-- that fansub watchers are "lazy, self-serving, entitlement-minded fans with no honor." I'm sure people who fit that description are out there, for sure, but just from the discussions on this board, it's pretty obvious that many (not all, of course) fansub watchers buy anime DVDs later on of the shows they like. You're making a generalization about viewers personalities that isn't necessarily true-- honestly, this isn't a good argument against fansubs, as many people end up buying DVDs specifically because they watched the fansub. I'm not saying that's some sort of full proof argument for why fansubs are great, but this one you're putting forward here against them isn't any better.
Simultaneously, I could easily say that watching a fansub of a TV show is very much promotional in nature. Promotional products are intended to wet appetites to buy products, and fansubs can (although they don't always succeed) as well. Besides which, as more than one person has pointed out already, there are a number of reasons why people buy DVDs, even though they've watched fansubs-- the video quality is better, there's a dub, there are extras, or for the basic desire to own an item and fetishize it and put it on your shelf. There are obviously people posting here who dl lots of stuff and don't ever buy DVDs, but it's simply not true, it's faulty logic, to say that just because I've watched a fansub there is therefore no reason to buy a DVD. And it's just not true to say that all/most fansub watchers watch fansubs because its free, because they don't want to buy stuff. The vast vast majority of shows fansubbed are subbed when the program is airing in Japan and there is no alternate American product available. Many anime fans watch them because they love anime, they want to watch new shows, and they want to discover gems that aren't liscened or never will be. I'm not saying this somehow "justifies" watching fansubbed shows morally or logically, but your using this faulty concept of why fansub watchers watch fansubs (namely, "entitlement" and a desire to never pay for anything ever) as your argument against fansubs. Mostly, I just thought your basic 3 criteria were not very useful. They're too easy to pick apart. As for the first one, the fact of it having all of the content included or not doesn't really matter-- some promotional material includes an entire ep. (and essentially, this one is on the list because you seem to be arguing that if all the content is included no one will buy it-- which I've already discussed above). The 2nd and 3rd points you made are also based on a very specific stereotype you've created/found/experienced first hand of why fansubbers watch fansubs, and it's a pretty broad generalization that doesn't really hold a lot of water. For a person as experienced in this debate as you are, your arguments just don't seem very full proof, the way you are presenting them as. If you wanted to play the morality card, fine. Do the stealing thing, since we're not paying for the cable or watching the Japanese commericals or some such thing. But there's just not a direct full proof argument to made if you're going to try and correlate watching fansubs to not buying future DVD releases of those same shows. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Zero89
Posts: 147 |
|
|||||
hmmm... I've already rescinded my other statement (and apologized), but since you were so belligerent in your response... no, it's not the end of the story... Despite your whole wealth of knowledge and self-proclaimed expertise on the matter, you still refuse to give any ground? This in itself baffles me. You've seen everything the pro-fansub people have to say have you? Well, bear with me here, cause this is going to be a little abstract. You act as if stopping all forms of downloading, or "stealing" as you so vehemently proclaimed, is as easy as 1,2,3. Let me just throw this at you. Would it be wrong to associate some people's almost rabid need for anime as an addiction? I mean, there are some people here that couldn't go a week without watching something anime related... Have you ever smoked? drank? if so, you would realize how hard it is to break a habit that you've had for a while... You'll at least agree with me that not everyone can afford the relatively high price for an anime DVD, right? What do you suppose would happen if these people's supply were to suddenly be cut off. Their symptoms of withdrawal would be god knows what, but let's just assume that it's something like boredom; though I think it's pertinent to say that a friend of mine has stolen an anime DVD when he didn't have a computer... though it's not like he hasn't stolen stuff before, just that he wouldn't have needed to had he had access to "fansubs". Let's assume that an anime addict's reaction to this scenario in a similar fashion. All that's happened is you've replaced "possible gains" theft with physical theft. And although I admit that's wrong, it would undoubtedly happen at a much higher rate. You take away something that's someone has been conditioned for long enough, and you WILL get side effects like an actual (as in state enforced) crime. I haven't seen this brought up before, but all that means is that it's not a common argument; though I think it should be. If you take away someone's means to something they want, you get crime. You turn someone that could have gotten what they wanted for free, at no cost to an actual person, into a person that has just stolen a physical product, an act that WILL 100% of the time take profits away from someone. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
|
|||||
|
Of course, then stuff like Zero89's post gets written, which isn't really helping the cause, IMO. Equating watching anime fansubs with addiction is .... far fetched and absurd at best, to me atleast. It has the flavor of grasping at straws.
**** After having written the last post though, I've come to see one thing pretty clearly-- after you take away the issue of legality, and whether one relates legality to morality-- after you take that away, I just don't see any real argument against fansubs that holds much water. The only real argument becomes a loss of sales, and it's just near impossible to show that-- no study has been done assessing whether its true or not, and there's just as much anecdotal info here (from posters) that says there's atleast as many fansub viewers who buy DVDs (often because of watching the fansub) as those who don't. I'm happy to hear something to refute this. Honestly. I like good discussion, and how else is one going to create an informed opinion without it, but ... well, I just don't see any good arguments. Does someone have one, once we get past legality and legality=morality? |
||||||
|
||||||
|
10円
Posts: 605 |
|
|||||
Sorry, but the concept of viewing fansubs as legitimate promotional material is just plain silly. Sure, a few random fansub fans might choose to stop watching after the first episode of every series and first few minutes of every movie. Another even larger group of fansub fans might go on to buy a portion of the shows that they already watched for free. Does that mean the other dozen, hundred, or thousand fansubs they and others watched and never bought are suddenly irrelevant? Not in my eyes. Watching a fansub isn't like test driving a car or something; you're already getting everything the real show has to offer for free. It's almost like you're moving to California so you choose to 'test drive' a truck from New York all the way to San Diego. Oh, but you paid for your own gas and a flat tire repair along the way so it all evens out in your mind. People ask you why you didn't just rent a truck to make the move but you simply ignore them and instead complain that brand new trucks cost too much to purchase. It's really amusing how some people just can't seem to be able to wrap their head around such simple concepts, but thanks for trying. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Zero89
Posts: 147 |
|
|||||
You can ignore the addiction crap if it helps, the bottom line is this: If you take away someone's means to get something for free, then you will force them to take alternatives, and one alternative that happens far too oftenis physical theft. And unlike "potential gains" theft, there is a victim 100% of the time. |
||||||
|
||||||
Murasakisuishou
 Posts: 1469 Location: NE Ohio |
|
|||||
Expecting someone to actually pay for anime is not 'taking away their means', it's expecting them to pay for anime. Anime is not something that creates a physical need in the human body, unlike drugs (not that I'm saying drugs are okay), and if a person is so desperate that they'd beat someone up and take their wallet just to go buy a Death Note DVD, well, both they and society have got bigger problems to worry about. |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group