Forum - View topicREVIEW: Rozen Maiden DVD 3
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Ugh, where have I been, missed this one. Needless to say I am a bit disappointed in the review. With that said it is his opinion and perhaps proof that maybe this show isn't for everyone like [insert popular shounen or shoujo series]. Perhaps the art is so that you automatically expect the show to be as super kawaii as it's characters, and although there are definite elements of cute in the series, the show most definitely does not use that as it's backbone. So while I respect his opinion I hope this doesn't turn away people who have been sitting on the fence, as the show turns out to be much more than was let on here. I myself was extremely skeptical when I first saw this show, I mean talking dolls, fighting! I was like whatever, this is going to be stupid. I was pleasently surprised however once I got through a few episodes, it is where the story really draws you in. It was nothing like I had imagined.
I guess you had a different take but I always knew from the beginning that this was not going to be a light escapists plot. It was clear from pretty early on that this was not just a fluff piece featuring bubbly dolls pulling all the too cute hijincks on the unsuspecting lead protagonists. I think it was always intended as a somewhat dark tale dabbling in the psychological.
In other words, its not good because not everything is spelled out for you, there are no clear boundaries set up, and there is to much room left for ambiguity. Considering the condition of the lead, and how literally disturbing the show is, it seemed clear to me that those things were supposed to be left up in the air, and in a way reflected Jun's own confusion in an anything but normal situation.
Again, I respect his opinion, I certainly don't expect everyone to like everything, I think this is clear that RM is not everyones cup of tea. I just ask for anyone still left on the fence, and that this review hasn't totally turned you off, to maybe read some more reviews elsewhere, and if it still looks like garbage throw it in the trash, and no I am not going to be rude and mention those reviews here. |
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Pete577
Posts: 18 Location: Michigan |
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Hmm... I respectfully disagree.
While the animation (not the art, the animation, as in the movement) can be a little choppy at some times, I really fell for the characters (No, not in a creepy otaku way). I really felt for the serious moments, and I even liked the lighthearted moments, as well. For me, its the characters that make the story, and they made this one. Now, I will say that Traumend (the second season) exceeds the original show in many ways, but to be honest, I love all of it. |
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Ahasuerus
 Posts: 32 Location: S.F. Bay Area, CA |
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Greetings,
After perusing ANN for several months, I finally joined after reading this review. I'm glad that a forum exists where differing opinions from the reviewers can be shared. In short, this post says it all:
This is exactly as I see it, and Traumend even moreso. In long... With regard to dolls, there are three groups of people: Those who love them, those impartial, and those who are "creeped out" by them. I've been studying this issue for several years, and it fascinates me to no end. Rozen Maiden clearly is a series for those who are mystified by, and appreciate, dolls. It's NOT related to figures, or the otaku who are obsessed with them, to paraphrase that last snarky line 
Pygmalion wanted to create the "perfect, ideal woman" and so fashioned her, much in the way "Father Rozen" lovingly crafted his dolls, with the intent of bringing about "Alice, the perfect girl". It's not so far-fetched to draw parallels between Creators and Created ones, the longing of these to meet their Maker, and their (especially Shinku's) desire to not surrender her "soul", the Rosa Mysticka. It is a beautiful, touching, and deep story, if you look beneath the surface. That being said, the first season did have its flaws, but for me the story itself far outweighed the negatives. I'd give it a solid "B". The cutesy scenes nicely offset the darker moments, and are needed to provide a form of balance, and provide character development in bits and pieces. Traumend will satisfy those wanting an even darker story, and portrays yet another doll-maker who crafts his designs with (apparent) love. It's a much stronger story and Season 1 is a great prelude to it. Kudos to Geneon for making a box set that will include both seasons (and hopefully the integral OVA, "Ouverture"). Compare that to Bandai for their Haruhi marketing "plan" ("assault" seems more appropo) 
The so-called "creepy" aspect with regard to human/inanimate is explored much more thoroughly in "Chobits" but with much Deeper Understanding. In RM, the fleeting scene in which Jun sees Shinku undressed and stares at her ball-joints (and the curve of her calves) is but a suggestion meant to provoke thought. It's an issue that "Bladerunner" also explores, the theme of "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" As for Suigintou, there is much more backstory involved about her and Shinku, and believe me that you'll view her in a more sympathetic light if you go beyond Season 1. Jun will definitely learn from Season 1. Hina Ichigo annoyed me at first, but she's just so damn cute that I got over it fast. Her seiyuu is perfect, and even adlibbed a lot of her lines. I didn't like the English replacement as much, but she was cute too.) All the characters were wonderful, even the minor ones. Anyway, if you really think dolls are "creepy" then you've seen way too many Chucky movies
Here If you think they're "creepy" go seek help 
Thanks for your indulgence, and hoped-for understanding. This is a wonderful anime, but especially essential for doll-lovers 
Regards [EDIT: Please be a little more considerate of users with dial-up. Posting pictures is fine, but posting them as images when they're big enough to distort the dimensions of my browser is a bit much. Thanks. -TK] |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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I don't think they are creepy, but I suppose I can understand where someone who does is coming from. I think it's the eerie life in something that is lifeless and the mask of innocence that creeps people out.
I mean, a doll is meant to emulate a person, in most cases a small child, usually female. While some don't have the eerie sense to them like Cabbage Patch Kids since they are very cartoonish there are others that are designed much more realistically and I think those are the ones people find creepy. Add that those eyes that seem to follow you everywhere and often times an expression that appears more as a mask to hide behind than a representation of emotion. Bring those in to play and I can see how it might creep some out. Of course, not being part of that camp I can't say for sure but that's my take on it. Things like Chucky and various other stories and tales involving dolls don't help, but when you think about it there's a reason dolls are so often portrayed that way. On another note, do those two dolls on the left have different colors to their eyes or is that just the light or angle playing tricks? |
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Dargonxtc
Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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If you mean on the right, yes, so no your eyes are not playing tricks on you, they are supposed to be that way. |
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Ahasuerus
Posts: 32 Location: S.F. Bay Area, CA |
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Keonyn, that's a very good point; well-made. Since I can't relate to that viewpoint I appreciate your spelling it out. But I rather think that the reviewer falls into this "dolls-are-creepy-so-this-anime-is-too" camp without giving the opposite viewpoint (i.e mine LOL) any consideration. His points were good; we just have differing viewpoints (and final grade)
There is the ancient tradition of dolls serving as "receptacles" for (fill in the blank), and they've been around for as long as mankind has. I think that Rozen Maiden is CLAMP's homage to dolls and doll-making, and a nod to their fascinating history. I can see why someone not into them might view the series with a jaundiced eye, but for those who do know, they will love it. Both RM and Chobits are legendary in the doll community as the only animes to really tackle the subject(s) head-on. Regarding the photo question (and assuming you mean the girls on the right), the twins Suiseiseki (green dress) and Souseiseki (wearing the hat, and yes, she's a girl) both have heterochromatic eyes, but opposing green and red. These Pullip dolls came close to the color, but the red is a little off. Aside from the fact that Hina Ichigo's Dal doll looks very little like her, they're a great joy to have around, as they very well keep the anime living on... in my room! 
Since I haven't mentioned it yet, ANN is a critical tool that I've used in learning about anime, so thanks Even when we disagree, I've found the reviews to be generally spot-on. People disagree everywhere so no worries; I don't take any critic's word for gospel anyway. It's all data 
There is one complaint I do have about the series though... WHY are most of their names so similar, lengthy, unusual, and confusing???  Now THAT is a quibble Still, I loved it!
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Samurai-with-glasses
 Posts: 628 |
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Wow, there sure are a lot of Rozen Maiden fans running around.
To be honest, it's just average to me at best. [Warning, what follows are random ramblings barely organized into incoherent points... Also note that I actually liked the show but would devote this post to an alternative viewpoint to the thread's prevailing one.] - People point out that Jun is an a-hole who abuses his sister. I actually didn't mind that aspect that much but he otherwise felt so...pathetic. Or may be generic. May be either. Something just bothers me, and it's not his hikkikomori issues either. NHK's Saito was way more messed up, and I like him. - The dolls are a mixed bag. Some are appealing, some are not. I like Shinku and Suiseiseki and a few other ones but... - Suigintou, for example -- and I agree with the review on this one -- is extremely annoying. Just try to watch the series' early episodes again and see how many times she laughs maniacally because she's a villain! By the Morninglord, what am I watching, Saturday Morning Cartoon!? =P She turns more sympathetic later on (still generic; but I don't have a problem with generic) though. - Souseiseki is boring. - Shinku + Jun pseudo-romance is less than convincing. Suiseiseki's spoiler[later obsession with our glass-wearing main character] is also not exactly convincing. Friendship with the dolls? Protectiveness (Moe? lol)? All well and good. Starry-eyed "I appreciate you love-love kiss-kiss?" Not really. - The "creepy" part didn't bother me. - Poor classmate is ignored. Why is it that it happens all the time in anime? Sigh. It's like if the show didn't make it blatant from the beginning that She's the one you'll never get it in any male-oriented show ever. - It has many weak executions for its drama. This show is, in my opinion, at its best when it's comedy. Quite frankly, drama takes skill to pull off without cheese. I hate rats so you know. They bite off the dolls' parts. - I think many people are reading all too much between the lines to say that Rozen Maiden is the most complex thing ever [hyperbole alert]. I can see some points where such sentiments are supported -- the whole "Creator" issue (how far must the creations go to support their Creator's whims etc.), the hikkikomori characterization of the main character, even the insane hobby Jun's got. But in the end it's not in the business to be claiming places alongside anime with more powerful and often more complex messages out there. Oh, and finally, before you flame, read the bracket earlier in the post! |
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daedelus
 Posts: 743 Location: Texas City, TX (ajd: 6/11/05) |
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Ahasuerus
Wow! Those are some great dolls you have. The part of me that wants-to-own-everything-but doesn't-have-near-enough-room-to-store-them would really like to add those to my collection. I was going to ask if those were official products, or something you fashioned yourself, but I noticed the literature displayed in front. Congrats on your collection!
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Ahasuerus
Posts: 32 Location: S.F. Bay Area, CA |
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Samurai, you made some valid points, and I agree with most, but they didn't really ruin it for me. I just received my DVD 3 last week and watched both versions (I much prefer the Japanese language over the dub, but the dub lets me watch the animation without the distraction of subtitle-reading). Suigintou's laughter was slightly "hammy" but the fact that her seiyuu was Rie ("Chi") Tanaka made up for it
I was rooting for Jun to grow some; his stubborness was aggravating but he's basically a good kid, just so self-centered until he realizes he has to be of help. I was ticked at how he treated Nori, but seeing how she handled it helped me to tolerate it as long as she could. Agreed about classmate Tomoe; I hoped that he would see her in a new light, but... stubborn, what can I say Her connection to Hina Ichigo was touching, and gets significant in Season 2, where the drama is much better handled.
LMAO @ your Saito comment; yeah, that guy had problems but he did pretty well in the end; a likable fellow, I agree. I can't rank it up there with say Kanon (which I just finished and was blown away by), but it does occupy a "special place" for me, along with Chobits, in the upper echelon of my collection. I love it despite its flaws, and I guess we do that with those we love
Personally, I don't flame anyone; that's what lame people do Thanks for your thoughts.
Hi Daedelus, (ah, another Ergo Proxy fan? ),
Thanks! Actually, I never gave dolls a second thought until I designed one to promote my book; just figured she'd be a mannequin. But dolls are magical... and the relationship changed 
Long ago I created the character of Lily while writing the book and could see her so clearly it hurt to end it. But discovering a life-size doll company that customized dolls to your specs allowed me to "bring her to life", Lily, the ideal; much like Pygmalion did, in a way like Rozen did. And so, the doll "became" Lily, who's emerged from imagination, and into our reality. She's even appeared in books about dolls, and so she "exists" in others' as well... I'm sure the skeptics will ask, "Sure, but can they pull a rabbit out of a hat?" and no, they can't. It's not that kind of magic. But she has been great "company" (due in large part to her Real-ness) and surprised me with so much delight. So when I saw Rozen Maiden which gave an insider's outlook to owning a doll, it struck a chord, thus my fanboyish feeling about it, and Chobits. I can relate to your not-enough-room problem though. In early May I finally delved into anime (writing all the time left me no time to investigate it until now), and by the end of the month I'd ordered 14 PVC figures, and bought four collector's box sets, 6 manga, and filled a good chunk of my hard drive with "must-see" anime. Now I've got 11 collector's sets (still pending on Rozen Maiden, Ergo Proxy, and Higurashi's remainders), and seen around 25 series, many of them multiple times. Not bad for 4 1/2 months
I can't tell you how much worse it is now, but I'm hooked, bad  AND I live in a small house So that's why the Rozens are standing on my bureau, where they watch me go to sleep and wake up. It's nice to see them there, too
I'm still so new here that I'm reluctant to be posting links, but pullipstyle's website has pictures of the Rozens with their other dolls. While they aren't real ball-jointed dolls as the anime Rozens are, they look a lot better than the Shinku BJD I saw (and about $700 cheaper ).
I also have Barasuishou and Kanaria, but they appear in Season 2 ("Traumend") and I thought it might be off-topic or spoilerish so I didn't include them. They're all lovely dolls though (and it's a great way to meet girls )...
As for the goodies set up in front of each doll, each Rozen has their own little set; Shinku is the only one with the "Will You Wind? Or Not Wind?" letter seen in front of her. Hina's crayons came with her, but um... er... I had to do the drawing for her The rose came with Lily, but she likes to share
And with that I'd best close; I fear I'm venturing into off-topic territory (still feeling the ropes). I do hope the same reviewer is able to do DVD 4, which begins Traumend; it will be a different flavor I think... hopefully more palatable to him! Cheers
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Mylene
 Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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Sorry to nitpick, but Rozen Maiden is done by Peach Pit, not CLAMP. I'm very happy to see people defending RM in a rational way in the latter pages of this thread. I personally avoided the review, as I don't like reading negative reviews of shows I like--particularly when they seem to suggest that the show is targeted at creepy otaku, something I am not. I think I must be in the minority, as I greatly preferred the first season to Traumend. I liked the fluffier episodes. Why? They reminded me of the great cartoon shows from the 80s like Muppet Babies combined with fun cartoons of the 90s like Powerpuff Girls. For me, the dark episodes were just quick breaks in the great comedy of the first season (much like Nanami episodes in Revolutionary Girl Utena provided much needed comedic breaks in the drama). The episode "Stairs" will always be my favorite, and the extent to which it sent me back to my Muppet Babies days was great. That's not to say I didn't enjoy the drama, I did, but what made it great for me was the sense of nostalgia I got from the comedy. |
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Ahasuerus
Posts: 32 Location: S.F. Bay Area, CA |
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Hi Mylene,
OOPS Thanks for pointing this out; I've had Chobits on the brain much too much lately (Spent hours yesterday looking for a picture book of "The Town With No People." ) For some reason I always confuse those two. Nitpicking is fine; I prefer learning from my mistakes
That was one of my favorites as well; it really was funny, and gave Jun and Hina a chance to bond, if it can be called that I enjoyed the sillier moments as well and felt that they sharpened the contrast between light and dark moments. "Comedy relief"... that's an apt decription, isn't it?
I kind of felt sorry for Nori's unlucky "suitor"
Since I lack the perspective of probably most people here, I don't really have much to compare Rozen Maiden to. I'm not jaded and cynical so perhaps enjoyed it a lot more than anime fans who have watched for years and found it lacking or derivative. In fact, I dislike comparing one anime with another series because it's unfair to the creators; everything ought to be judged on its own merits. A case in point might be Noir vs Madlax. Reviews here inferred that Madlax was practically a clone of Noir and that the title character was less interesting than that of Noir's. I found the exact opposite to be true: I loved Madlax and was left cold by Noir. It's all perspective To me the story of Rozen Maiden is a wonderful modern-day fairytale, and full of scenes to make me laugh, think, and even cry a little bit. There's a lot to be said for Feeling; not everything HAS to be complex, inscrutable, and violent.
This anime has a lot of HEART in it, and that's why I love it so. In that case, then yes, I am biased, so can't be impartial. Guess I'll never make a great reviewer
Thanks for patience, tolerance, and understanding. I'm watching, learning, and absorbing as much as I can; without ANN I'd have been overwhelmed and lost. I don't want to be a newb forever But I just had to stick up for the Rozens!
Regards... |
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Samurai-with-glasses
Posts: 628 |
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... At first I didn't know who she was, so I checked up on the encyclopedia. And wow, what a list!
I agree that Jun did grow up by a lot during the series, but he's still annoying. -_-" I think it's the generic "nice guy" act that bores me. He's neither smartass nor badass enough (choose either) for a real male lead. *_* I actually liked the way Jun connects to Hina Ichigo too. Without that aspect both of the characters would be even more annyoing for me. However it did help a lot to improve Jun's not-really-an-a-hole rating for the way he cares for the doll as if she was, say, his little sister or a close someone to protect. And no I'm not talking about that kind of little sister! 
Oh, I'm not really expecting anyone to flame me. It's a tongue-in-cheek self-depreciation thing mostly. Kind of like an "I posted a provocative post and I know it!" recognition.
In fact you're rather courteous and I enjoy your opinions. Like I said I actually like the show despite what I see as its many, many faults.
I have to agree. Rozen Maiden is far better for me when it doesn't take itself or its drama too seriously. |
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Randall Miyashiro
 Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
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I finally got around to finishing this DVD this morning. While not on the top of my list, I will say that this series ended up much better than I expected it to be.
I also felt that the "creepy wish fulfillment" a little offensive. I will also agree that Chobits presents this in a far more "creepy" manor. The concepts in Rozen seems to me relatively innocent in it's implications compared to the explicitness of Chobits. I believe that the "completely lacking in moral context or psychological complexity" is what prevents it from being creepy. I think the series would be creepy if Jun had erotic fantasies about the dolls, or if more was going on between them. It is similar in my mind to Kermit and Miss Piggy's relationship, which comes across as innocent because we are not analyzing the fact that they one is a frog and one is a pig. My favorite episode of this series is probably the second episode "before the SHTF" on this DVD. The series is at it's strength when the 4 dolls are playing off each other since they all have very distinct personalities. Although I only watched the Japanese track I love the variety in the four character's voices. It is one of those ensembles where you can recognize the character by their voice as well as by what (and how) they are saying. The chemistry in an ensemble cast has carried me through many mediocre (Daphne comes to mind) shows. The Kun-Kun moments and the laundry incedent really work for me. Granted it isn't anywhere as good as Azumanga, or Strawberry Marshmallows, I still love these moments. I will say that I also found Suigintou and Jun both weak characters that break the mood above. I agree with this review in this regard, since it feels like the series really should have found a focus and gone with it instead of being the patchwork mess that it is. I happen to be on the other side of the show, and really disliked the fights which reminded me to much of shows like Zatch Bell. I also agree that people should state here why they like a series (or dislike) instead of attacking the reviewer without justification. I felt the same way some of you feel here when Theron and Zak gave a much harsher review to Speed Grapher. I didn't attack their reviews since they had solid reasons to support their reviews, but instead replied by explaining the reasons why the series resonated with me and other reviewers around the net. Convince us on good points that the reviewer missed instead of trying to discredit the reviewers here. I feel that the reviews here are very solid even though my tastes are fairly different from Zak or Theron. |
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