Forum - View topicKyoto Animation...what is it?
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qtipbrit92
 Posts: 37 Location: San Diego |
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Well, I guess this is pretty close to mutual agreement. waii~!
I guess it would be harder to notice if you had seen streaming versions, especially on certain sites. If you watch any episode of Gurren Lagann (preferably some of the middle or later ones), and then the fourth, you'll notice a drastic (not really drastic, but noticeable) difference in its animation. I believe it was headed by a guest for that episode, and after some controversy involving 2ch, one of the co-founders of Gainax left the studio. There's likely a way to know the budget, as information on this site requires a source, but I'm not sure where. |
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Vortextk
 Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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The problem with Seirei was that while it was detailed, fluid and beautiful, the "ho-hum" scenes were just good. No "talking head" syndrome of course, it was just good animation. I find the kyoto productions SHINE in the regular scenes because there is so much...hm...body language. I don't find that as much elsewhere.
And as the OP, heh, I was talking about "mainly" the actual animating of the images. But hey, don't let me stop discussion. It's always interesting to read up what everyone thinks. About fansubs, for the most part they're high quality, period. Literally high definition, 720/1080p with surround sound, is not too uncommon. Anyone, half blind, could easily debate animation just based off of fansubs. This of course has more implications in the morality of such high quality fansubs, but please, none of that here  .
Edit*Gurren-Lagann ep 4. It was just a style change, but in my opinion, it looked terrible. FLCL had similar changes, but not for an entire episode, more of a "cameo" of different styles. There was some problems over it with the staff but I can't remember specifics now. I thought it was a higher up though(like episode director?) that left. |
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Porcupine
 Posts: 1033 |
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> Ignorance porcupine, that's not an excuse. For the record, if I compare the fansubs to the DVD for many of the series I own I see absolutely negligible differences in animation quality.
True ignorance is not an excuse. So everyone should keep in mind that while I am VERY familiar with the technical aspects of things, I don't have much experience viewing fansubs first-hand in recent years so I could be totally mistaken. Still, I don't believe you one bit that the fansubs are not significantly lower in quality than the equivalent (already terrible-quality) DVDs, when things move. I can believe you when nothing moves or there is little movement, which is almost all the time. At such times bitrate does not matter. > Perhaps you would do well to keep in mind that anime is only animated at 12 frames per second, far far below the refresh rate of a TV or a moniter. I agree that anime is not always animated at 24, 30, or 60 fps and that this affects compression results. I just wanted to point out though that many animes DO animate at the "full" 24 fps frame-rate occasionally. Not necessarily are these the highlight moments of animation quality though, but they do occur. Kyoto Animation uses 24 fps animation sometimes (actual drawings, not talking about scrolling backgrounds which is always at 24, 30, or 60 fps for all animes). > Also, some shows now are actually broadcast on cable in HD... Not disagreeing with anything, but I should point out that most HD digital cable stations in the USA have worse quality than DVD. Because although broadcast in HD the assigned bitrate to that channel is too low. The image looks far better when there is little movement, which is almost all the time. But when things move too fast, many HD channels look worse than DVD. I don't know about Japan though. It's according to each individual station what bandwidth they are assigned I believe. > Fansubs generally use the clearest signal available for the original broadcast of a show Fansub source signals are always worse than the source signal for a DVD. This does not necessarily mean that fansubs are worse quality than DVD though, I am just talking about the source signal. At its best, the source signal for a fansub is either a perfect digital copy of a mediocre-bitrate digital cable channel, or the DVD itself. While the source signal for a commercially-available DVD is from something that is not commercially-available (and possibly lossless from whatever "original" data exists). > If you'd noticed, the HD raws for some anime episodes are released as 900+ megabyte files that are then cut down to 230-ish megabytes without losing any meaningful information. I had no idea what the HD raws filesizes were. If you say they are 900+ megabytes files, then that confirms my suspicion that it is LOWER bitrate than the low bitrates used in America for DVD. The average episode size for a SD low-bitrate DVD in America is 1.1 to 1.3 megabytes. Your numbers would only prove that the HD raw is lower quality than the SD American DVD. (digital cable, even HD, I believe is MPEG-2 standard so you cannot claim MPEG-4 miracles to say that the quality is better) Compressing 900 megabytes to 250 megabytes seems even more questionable to me. Not only are you re-encoding which is very lossy even if you were to keep the bitrate unchanged, but you are compressing down to the same size as SD fansubs when you have a HD signal. An HD fansub theoretically is even worse quality than the SD fansub IF they are the same filesize. > Are you really saying the bitrate needs to be so ludicrously high ...to be able to tell the difference between two cartoons animated at 12 frames per second? Only during the times during which there is high-speed motion, 12 fps is high enough, yes there is no cure for having a low bitrate. The filesize of an uncompressed RAW SD episode of 24 minutes would be 22,000 megabytes. No matter how smart the codec, compression ratio of 100:1 is difficult. For HD, the uncompressed RAW would be 6 times greater, so aiming for a 250 megabytes file is closer to 1000:1 compression. ---------------- Aside from all these technical arguments though I wanted to clarify what I said earlier even a little more. When I say that I think it is difficult to judge animation quality on a fansub, I am mainly talking about the super-fast ultra-quality scenes. Things you might use in a "who is the best" contest. I am not talking about things which are obvious like panning, cheapness, the difference between a 4 fps animation and a 6 fps animation, etc. Of course you can judge these things no matter what quality you are watching. And even for the highest quality high-frame-rate scenes, one can still see and judge it on a fansub, I just would not be completely confident that the person accurately saw what was intended to be seen. I would not be confident that the quality of that animation was accurately judged, but it can still be judged. In a nutshell, even if only fansubs were watched, if a sharp-eyed, fast-eyed, reliable person ranked a whole bunch of animes from top to bottom in terms of animation quality, I would believe pretty much the whole list except for the very, very top part. That part I would not trust him. I would not trust myself if it were me doing the ranking with fansubs. |
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Westlo
 Posts: 1684 |
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It's really unfair to hold KyoAni on a higher pedestal because they only work on 1 show at a time, while I.G have multiple studios and work on many tv series, ovas and movies simultaneously. If I.G or Madhouse (please stop mentioning Gonzo people :( ) only worked on 1 project at a time they would easily be on their level if not better, but we would would lose a lot of quality shows at the same time. If Madhouse took the KyoAni approach and downsized accordingly would they have even considered touching the future classic "Monster"? I mean being locked into doing one thing only for 70+ weeks.... From Spring 07 and up I.G have put out Seirei no Moribito, Ghost Hound and the Tsubasa Tokyo Revelations OVAs. They're working on the movie Sky Crawlers right now as well as prepping their next big series Real Drive for Spring 08 along with Library War which is airing in the fabled Noitamina block. So assuming they're high quality as well in the space of 18 months they will have put out. Seirei no Moribito Ghost Hound Tsubasa Tokyo Revelations OVAs Sky Crawlers Movie (due 2008) Real Drive (Spring 08) Library War (Spring 08) xxxHOLiC 2nd Series (Spring 08) The first 3 on this list are already proven and are superior to any KyoAni work, though with Tsubasa Tokyo Revelations being an OVA it's unfair... anyway this is about equal to the amount of work KyoAni have produced in 5 years. And of course they have Le Chevalier D`Eon, GITS SAC + 2nd GIG + Movie, GITS Innocence, Blood: The Last Vampire & Blood+ etc
I see Seirei getting praised for body language a lot on the internet, especially the scene I mentioned in my last post from episode 19. |
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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And yet, you freely admit that you have absolute no meaningful experience with them... explain to me how can justify even having a position like that for a medium with which you have no experience. Also, with respect to the compression ratios, you don't seem to have much experience with running h264 encoded videos, but most high resolution anime *.mkvs encoded with it seem to require a 2.5 or 3 GHz processor to even run passably. So while the file size is smaller, it's much more intensive to read the data. I doubt you could hope to achieve those sorts of ratios with live action films, but then again, I'm far from a real expert on those sorts of things. I've done little more than dabble in it. EDIT: by the way Westlo, it's not that we're looking down on IG. I think KyoAni has one of the most consistently best teams out there, but their best stuff isn't nearly as good as most of the other studio's best stuff. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Fansubs are generally higher quality than broadcast TV, but less quality than DVDs, with the exception of the 720p upscale stuff, which really does look nice and I think slightly exceeds the DVDs (though it could just be that gundam 00 looks that good regardless).
In any case, fansubs can certainly be used as a judge of animation quality. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Broadcast analog cable TV is arguably higher quality than DVD. Of that much I am extremely familiar with, both technically and actual-experience viewing. It's a myth that old-fashioned sources like analog cable TV and laserdisc are bad quality, they are extremely high-quality sources. Broadcast digital cable SD TV is inarguably worse than DVD, it's a fact. Only broadcast digital cable HD is arguably higher quality than DVD, depending. Fansubs cannot be higher quality than the source they come from, only the same at best. Therefore only HD fansubs can even hope to actually be better quality than any other option.
Your terminology is incorrect when you say 720p upscale stuff. Upscaling never improves quality, only worsens it (and yes, I mean upscaling, not downscaling although it's even more obvious that downscaling worsens quality). I think you meant to say 720p true HD stuff. If you really meant upscale stuff then the quality is inarguably bad. I am assuming that anime broadcast in HD in Japan is a true 720p source, otherwise it'd be pointless. selenta, I have had some minor experience with fansubs as I said, about 4 years ago. That's not no experience, just very little. In any case, you've tried to make numerous technical arguments why fansubs are good quality and all were either untrue, irrelevant, or mathematically proving fansubs to be of a lower quality, as I've explained. You should stop trying to make technical arguments. Just say that you think fansubs are somehow great quality these days because you watch them and you say so. I won't be able to refute such an argument. The only drawback to that is that such an argument won't convince me in the slightest bit and I'll continue to maintain my stance on this. About your latest attempt at a technical argument, it is irrelevant. A slower decoding speed does not translate to correspondingly higher quality results in linear proportions. It is always a matter of diminishing gains. Generally speaking, when a complex-enough signal is encoded, a slower encoding/decoding speed has absolutely no effect on the accuracy of the reproduction. Anyway, I suggest that you and I stop with the technical claims in this thread so that we don't de-rail it. I apologize for bringing the subject up here. Last edited by Porcupine on Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:19 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Vortextk
Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Wow, just stop. Fansubs can be high quality, period. Action scenes are near perfect. I expect if you really cared one way or the other you'd check them out. I have experience with tv, dvd, and fansubs as a lot of other people. This isn't even a discussion at this point.
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Ugh, I was never really trying to argue the technical points, I said that time and time again. I DON'T really know the technical aspects, but clearly, you only know one side of it yourself. I never talked about upscaling or downscaling, I never talked about 720p, I talked about encoding methods, not the same thing. Either way, I claimed from the get go that I knew nothing and never claimed otherwise, I was merely making aside comments based on what I did know.
My argument was that you're obviously wrong, and every single person on this forum who watches fansubs knows it, but you're too damn stubborn to even concede the possibility that you may be wrong on something with which you have no meaningful experience in. 4 years ago is not only 4 years ago, you have limited experiences to begin with, and I can guarantee you that 4 years ago the general quality of fansubs floating around was quite good. At this point, I think you'd be hard pressed to defend against the claim that continuing to press your argument with less than no evidence is one way of trolling. We're done here, Vortextk is right, this isn't a debate at this point; you're clearly just trying to create an impasse so you can pretend that you have a valid argument. |
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Westlo
Posts: 1684 |
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Is Porcupine actually serious or is he just an amazing troll?
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Some of my previous post was in reply to what Xanas said, not you selenta. I know you didn't talk about the upscaling 720p stuff. Sorry I did not make it clearer. About what you just said though, your own statement just showed that YOU are obviously wrong and don't know what YOU are talking about. Because I saw a number of fansubs 4 years ago, and the quality was not just bad it was atrocious and unwatchable. I don't need to sit there and watch all 26 episodes of a series to know that the quality is unwatchable. 10 seconds of the first episode is enough to judge the video quality of the group that did that series and see when something is atrocious. I do, however, concede the possibility that I might be totally wrong about today's fansubs, which I have not seen. I have said that numerous times. Mathematically I am highly doubtful I am wrong but it's possible since I haven't seen them for myself. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Here's the quote from the Gunslinger Girl thread I was using for that "upscale" thing.
Maybe I'm out of context on this, I wasn't familiar with any other use for the term than you were. I believe he was saying that the HD raws are upscaled from original video that is not HD (or maybe that the video itself is upscaled prior to broadcast?) I'm honestly not sure, but it's the source for the use of the term in my post. Yes, upscaling would generally not increase quality, though in theory I suppose you could run some kind of filtering that would allow for it to work. I know it's possible to use programs to create vector (scalable) images from bitmaps, so I believe there is a way to do something similar in real time. Zalis, if you read this can you explain your use of the term here, I don't want to be speaking for you. In any case the point was that the quality of the Gundam 00 is certainly not less than most 480p dvds I watch, and those files are around 350 mb. |
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Vortextk
Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Yes, the Earth MIGHT be round, but since I have not been in space to see it with my own eyes, we shall never know. |
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Skys
 Posts: 101 Location: Minnesota |
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Porcupine, I strongly urge you to never join a debate team. Stating that you believe that from fansubs one cannot accurately judge animation quality and then admitting your only experience of watching fansubs was seeing a few horrible quality ones at a convention four years ago completely destroys your own argument. You can throw out numbers, talk about bitrate, or whatever you want, but none of that can surpass an actual experience of watching fansubs when they are at standard quality.
Based on your style of arguing I could state the following example. Four years ago I watched a few channels on TV. All of them were staticky. I will never watch any shows on TV again because one cannot accurately judge a show when they are that low of quality. Mathematically, I am highly doubtful I am wrong (Afterall, all the TV shows I saw four years ago were staticky thus all shows must be of the same level), but I suppose it might be possible I am wrong since I haven't watched TV four years since then. Point made, one cannot judge something on one experience alone. Let's say that my previous TV example actually occurred to me, and I only saw a few staticky channels four years back. I would still have the sense to realize that if everyone is telling me TV is usually not like that, then if probably is not usually like that. Porcupine, if everyone is telling you that fansubs are usually good quality, then have the sense to realize that fansubs are usually good quality. It is alright to argue something, but have the intelligence to admit when you are wrong otherwise you make a complete idiot out of yourself. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. I, like many others here, am a pretty big KyoAni fan. I really like their style and quality of animation and artwork. It is really great, and (Like what has been said many times before) consistent. Every KyoAni show I have seen so far I have enjoyed immensely. As for KyoAni as a company, I can't say anything about their budget (But I am sure they get a pretty decent one), I really think they just have a lot of talented people who enjoy their job and know what people enjoy and look forward to animes. This, I'm sure, can make all the difference. Last edited by Skys on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6874 Location: Kazune City |
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[Fixed your tags and spelling -selenta]
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