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Bugnin wrote:

Polycell wrote:

Quick, off-the-cuff theory: the misogynistic environment supposedly reinforced by male-oriented fanservice(of whatever extremity you think makes it degrading to women) creates a base desire in women to "get revenge" on the male sex, which they satisfy by having them vicariously raped in their manga(actually raping a man being far too much of a production for most women).

*sigh*

now we're blaming male-targeted shows for females who enjoy hardcore yaoi....because that just couldn't be natural, we have to find someone to blame for that?

revenge fantaies are all about taking power back from someone who stole it from you. Exactly how is it empowering for a woman to watch one guy get violated by another guy?

It's our society, it's kind of OK for a guy to violated another guy.
It's much much more difficult to prove a guy sex assault another guy or a girl sex assault a guy than a guy sex assault a girl.

Girls tell sex jokes to a guy at work is acceptable. Guys tell sex jokes to chickes at work, they get sexual harassment lawsuit.

I think we are kind brain brainwashed by society.

http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/whos-brainwashed/

Chagen46 wrote:

Oh shit, it's almost like people have fetishes and can write whatever porn they want!

Also, dom/sub is skeevish in your eyes? How much of a ridiculous prude are you?

When did I say that they couldn't fetishise what they want? At what point did I call the people themselves creepy? I just said that dubcon/noncon stuff tends to creep me out. If people have that as their kink, then whatever, as long as they're not acting on it on unwilling participants.

And dom/sub probably isn't the right word. I was thinking more along the lines of seme/uke in BL where one is totally dominant, aggressive, controlling alpha male all of the time and the other is submissive, weak, needy uke. I don't care much for seme/uke tropes, which is why I'm normally not in the BL fandom despite having several BL relationships I like.

I don't know if it's so much prudish as it is that certain stuff turns me off, which kinda ruins the point of porn. But if you want to call that "prudish" then go ahead. I tend to stick with the vanilla stuff.

I think a that a subject worth investigating is how females feel that Free!’s fanservice treats them. The social context and implicit relations of fanservice are relevant, but I suspect that there’s a further dimension in the relationship between the audience and creators, or the attitude of the creators toward the audience.

One of my objections to fanservice for males is that it sometimes feels condescending and insulting to me as male. I feel as though I’m being treated like a perpetual stereotype of 14-year old who can’t possibly be expected to pay attention to or care about anything unless it has some breasts and buttocks with the odd flash of vagina here and there. It’s as though the creators think so little of me as a male or are so carelessly unthinking about their work that no matter how great their creation is in any other dimensions, some sort of crass sexual appeal is mandatory. Are my tastes really so monotonously overwhelmed by my having a penis?

To be honest, when a series comes along that avoids sexualizing its female characters, especially if the story provides an opportunity, I often feel tremendous relief. (e.g. Kurau: Phantom Memory, The Twelve Kingdoms and The Big O)

Perhaps fanservice for males is unavoidably tainted by social context. I don’t mean just historical and current inequities in gender relations, but that sexual appeal to males is so pervasive and available that its presence has become routinized while its audience has become desensitized to its presence. I do not mean that men become unresponsive to sexualized images, but that they respond only on the most base, visceral level as the injection sexual appeal into culture and media has become so abundant in so many situations, that we become trained to disregard its connection to its context or the females being employed for it. We just end up like mindless sex dumpsters, piling in every morsel of naked flesh offered with no regard to its quality, meaning or appropriateness. Fanservice for men is like fast food: unhealthful, bland and repetitive, but ludicrously cheap and made incredibly easy to get. Sexual appeals to females certainly exist, and seem ever commoner, but are ultimately fewer and, more importantly, available in more constricted spheres.

Free! is a relatively rare bird, especially given its prominence. That distinctiveness works to its advantage. Perhaps what fanservice for males should learn is to be scarcer.

Perhaps what’s true of comedy should be true of fanservice. Free!’s fanservice also feels somehow more joyful. Gou seems admiringly gleeful to be able to witness those fine specimens in their vigor and splendor as well as be a little self-aware about her actions. Even though there are plenty of male characters who follow the same crude template, their behavior doesn’t feel the same for some reason that I can’t quite put my finger on.

And, of course, I might be hopelessly disabled in this subject because when it comes to the appeal of most fanservice allegedly directed at me, somehow I just don’t get it.

Chagen46 wrote:

Quote:

Or, as TitanXL mentioned, doujinshi written by fujoshi that feature a lot of dom/sub, dubcon, and noncon BL material. And while the Western fandom doesn't tend to have as extensive history with doujinshi, I have read plenty of fanfics that edge into this territory (I tend to avoid the ones that outright go there).

Oh shit, it's almost like people have fetishes and can write whatever porn they want!

Also, dom/sub is skeevish in your eyes? How much of a ridiculous prude are you?

I think that she made it fairly clear that she was presenting a subjective perspective, not a prescription or assertion. Why should holdings of preference be privileged over that. And there may also be a case to make that culture is reflected in sexual fixations, so there may be valid concerns to be found through evaluating fetishes or tropes that are conspicuously common.

And, weren't you the guy who used to run around deeming things, "licentious?" Why yes, you were. I by no means begrudge anybody a change of mind on a subject. I've been through several stages of ideas about this subject. The problem here is that you've got the Dennis Miller after 9/11 syndrome of the convert's zeal. I half expect to see you doing guest segments on The O'Reilly Factor.

Surrender Artist wrote:

One of my objections to fanservice for males is that it sometimes feels condescending and insulting to me as male. I feel as though I’m being treated like a perpetual stereotype of 14-year old who can’t possibly be expected to pay attention to or care about anything unless it has some breasts and buttocks with the odd flash of vagina here and there.

The core assumption for that conclusion is that you do nothing else in your life but watch fanservice shows. I'm not a perpetual stereotype of a horny teenager, but that is a part of me, and I don't see any problem with a show allowing me to enjoy that when I feel like it. This doesn't mean I can't watch anything else, and nothing in the way the show is created indicates the creators think I can't watch anything else. Does the existence of fast food insult you? You don't have to eat there exclusively, and they aren't asking you to.

Spotlesseden wrote:

http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/whos-brainwashed/

Read the article, and I think it's pretty bogus. Just because FMRI data doesn't give us a complete picture of the brain, and we don't know how to completely interpret it, there is no bottomless abyss that everything falls into so all that data becomes useless. It's useful to a certain extent, and that extent will continue to grow.

As for not wanting science based morality, I think that's completely off track. Clearly leaving moral judgments in the hands of the moral intuitions of people doesn't work right all the time. People will argue their moral cases until they're blue in the face but if the data doesn't support them, they're wrong, no matter how convincing their argument may be or how intuitive their premise may seem.

Just because the physical process that is us can be explained (for some reason this is scary to people), it doesn't mean that anything is necessarily different; we just know more about what is going on. I've never understood peoples' reluctance to pull back the curtain and understand how we work, to admit that there is no magic in our structure. Is it pride? Are we afraid that we'll find that we are simpler than we'd initially thought? That our notions aren't coming from as logically justified a place as we thought?

How does this all relate to the topic? I don't know, but it sure is interesting, isn't it? Laughing

Last edited by Chiibi on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

Bugnin wrote:

Exactly how is it empowering for a woman to watch one guy get violated by another guy?

Lmao. It's not empowering...but it can be a turn-on.
.........especially if you're a sadist.
..................
>_>
<_<
*looks the other way whistling*

I do not support couples violating each other though because the whole "rape=love" thing utterly disgusts me, be it males or females in any situation. In other words...a male-on-male rape is...um...can be...appealing for one scene but if the victim stayed with the rapist by his choice, I'd immediately call BS and likely drop the series.

willag wrote:

I tend to prefer the healing type of stories where they each help each other to move beyond all of the sadness and pain in their lives.

Yes!! I find this type of relationship so beautiful! If the characters are able to support each other and care for one another during hard times or become a bright influence on each other, that's what makes it feel like true love.^^
That's why Hisoka is way better for Tsuzuki than that pervert psychopath Muraki. Anime hyper

Galap wrote:

Spotlesseden wrote:

http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/whos-brainwashed/

Read the article, and I think it's pretty bogus. Just because FMRI data doesn't give us a complete picture of the brain, and we don't know how to completely interpret it, there is no bottomless abyss that everything falls into so all that data becomes useless. It's useful to a certain extent, and that extent will continue to grow.

As for not wanting science based morality, I think that's completely off track. Clearly leaving moral judgments in the hands of the moral intuitions of people doesn't work right all the time. People will argue their moral cases until they're blue in the face but if the data doesn't support them, they're wrong, no matter how convincing their argument may be or how intuitive their premise may seem.

Just because the physical process that is us can be explained (for some reason this is scary to people), it doesn't mean that anything is necessarily different; we just know more about what is going on. I've never understood peoples' reluctance to pull back the curtain and understand how we work, to admit that there is no magic in our structure. Is it pride? Are we afraid that we'll find that we are simpler than we'd initially thought? That our notions aren't coming from as logically justified a place as we thought?

How does this all relate to the topic? I don't know, but it sure is interesting, isn't it? Laughing

it's related to this topic because normally when have, Haruka naked in an apron cooking food in another anime, that's not ok for most people.

But now Haruka is a boy, everything is good.

Our brain some how tell us this is ok. same name, different gender.
Deep in our mind, someone planted this info to us.

K-on is a much much normal show than Free!. We got alot of complains saying how morally wrong k-on was.

Chiibi wrote:

Bugnin wrote:

Exactly how is it empowering for a woman to watch one guy get violated by another guy?

Lmao. It's not empowering...but it can be a turn-on.
.........especially if you're a sadist.
..................
>_>
<_<
*looks the other way whistling*

I do not support couples violating each other though because the whole "rape=love" thing utterly disgusts me, be it males or females in any situation. In other words...a male-on-male rape is...um...can be...appealing for one scene but if the victim stayed with the rapist by his choice, I'd immediately call BS and likely drop the series.

willag wrote:

I tend to prefer the healing type of stories where they each help each other to move beyond all of the sadness and pain in their lives.

Yes!! I find this type of relationship so beautiful! If the characters are able to support each other and care for one another during hard times or become a bright influence on each other, that's what makes it feel like true love.^^
That's why Hisoka is way better for Tsuzuki than that pervert psychopath Muraki. Anime hyper

Oh, I understand that plenty of women like that. I know many personally that do. That doesn't mean I have a problem with it either, it's just not my cup of tea. But it wasn't made for me, isn't being marketed to me, so I honestly don't see the point in a straight guy like myself trying dissect or question it. I was just making the point that the popularity of hardcore yaoi didn't come about through revenge fantasies or resentment of men.

Bugnin wrote:

I was just making the point that the popularity of hardcore yaoi didn't come about through revenge fantasies or resentment of men.

Heh, for certain.

.....I don't quite get why the hardcore stuff is so popular myself. Most of it is terrible. >_> If it's not terrible artwork, it's terrible writing, at least. I mean, if you just want gay porn with no story or relatable characters, it works...I guess.... Anime hyper

but no, I need more than that to stay interested. Like anything, I'm sure GOOD hardcore stuff is out there and I just haven't found it yet. :<

I prefer "lighter and softer" content anyway when it comes to um....love-making. Anime hyper

And that doesn't only apply to yaoi content either....but couples of every kind. >_>

First off, my "yaoi rapiness is revenge" theory wasn't meant too seriously - it was simply the first thing that came to mind and I found it amusing enough to share.

Surrender Artist wrote:

One of my objections to fanservice for males is that it sometimes feels condescending and insulting to me as male.

This remark got me to thinking about the fanservice-heavy shows I've enjoyed(while not as repelled by it as Surrender Artist, I'm definitely not drawn to it), and I've noticed almost all of them fall into two categories: those whose male lead is an alright guy or those where his perversion bites him in the ass(the rest having no male lead). The last time I watched something where the lead was a skeeze, remained a skeeze and got no comeuppance for being a skeeze(admittedly it was porn, but the plot made it so damn easy to believe he'd be forced to confront his behavior - really should've thought more deeply about who made it) left me insulted enough as a male I took a while to realize it was horribly misogynistic.

I enjoy reading Chiibi's posts. Passionate and to the point. Gotta love that for what they deliver.

As for the topic, it's really difficult for me to add anything to the discussion simply because we all like different things. Some people may appreciate Free! for what it is while some will analyze the hell out of it, trying to make it something it's not: entertainment.

I don't begrudge fans today harping on titles having female leads fighting to cook dinner rather than saving the world (ah, the good old days), but I do have to say I'm getting tired of the over-sensitive attitudes of how everything's going to hell in a hand basket.

Fanservice can have its place, but I'd rather know ahead of time what I'm getting into. I remember the days of reading the back of DVD boxes looking for the content rating and its reasons, and if it said "Nudity", I put the box back because not too many series, and this is my opinion, did enough to add nudity to a series which supported a good story.

Things even seemed to get a little complicated when scenes were added to make them, uh, more mature? Kite and Mezzo Forte come to mind with this.

I have to side with the opinion it seems this stuff is being added to sell crap, as though we can't have an engaging story unless someone, regardless of sex, is objectified.

It's also the reason I stopped watching anime as much in the past year, holding out for a general consensus.

Not on the story, but how much the fanservice ruins the show.

Before Chagen46 comes in and spews bullshit "prude" statements, obviously the demographic the industry targets, this has nothing to do with a prude attitude.

It has to do with having to wade through a number of series to find the diamond in the rough, because there is such a thing as too much fanservice, and it does get tiring.

Ignatz wrote:

Anyway, back to Free!. I just think that people should stop saying that Free! is somewhat better in terms of featuring fanservice that doesn't offend anyone (in this case, men), because it isn't. If we were to replace the main characters with women, we would get a typical fanserivice show. Now that I think about it, the whole situation is kinda similar to how episode 6 of Suisei no Gargantia turned out: There is a context for the nudity to be there, but all of us can clearly see just how much camera focuses on it (I remember a lot of people were talking about it back when the episode aired), and because of that I can safely call it an exploitative fanservice.

You are right both Free! and Gargantia are/were exploitative in their fanservice.

There were definitely no reason in the last episode of Free! to focus so much on the characters back side for example except for fanservice purposes.

However Free! unlike Gargantia is a series about swimming. At the very least there is an in series explanation about why the characters are in swimwear, even if there is not a good explanation of why the "camera" looms where it does.

And yes I understand Gargantia explained its fanservice with a swim suit episode and belly dancing as a cultural dance. But these explanations were created to only explain the fan service. You don't watch Gargantia in the early episodes and think oh yes it is natural that this culture will have swim parties and belly dances. Whereas in Free! the main characters in swim wear is very natural for the story plot and setting.

The only natural thing about Gargantia fanservice is the women were in less clothing because of the heat. However that fails to explain why only the women are dressed like this and not the men.

Polycell wrote:

This remark got me to thinking about the fanservice-heavy shows I've enjoyed(while not as repelled by it as Surrender Artist, I'm definitely not drawn to it), and I've noticed almost all of them fall into two categories: those whose male lead is an alright guy or those where his perversion bites him in the ass(the rest having no male lead). The last time I watched something where the lead was a skeeze, remained a skeeze and got no comeuppance for being a skeeze(admittedly it was porn, but the plot made it so damn easy to believe he'd be forced to confront his behavior - really should've thought more deeply about who made it) left me insulted enough as a male I took a while to realize it was horribly misogynistic.

I am finding this whole Free! thing to be quite the learning experience but one of them is not that : people like ... things ... other people don't like. Here's a new one though: Hentai or maybe it's just animated porn or Japanese porn or maybe just Japan itself, has a tendency to be misogynistic.

No, no, the new idea is that someone's just realizing this now.

I for one, am drawn to fanservice but I've always been that way, from any form of art to ... stuff that's not art {Yah, yeah, you know it when you see it}: It's there to elicit a reaction, I respond in kind, the distinctive between artist and audience is realized. I don't think it's a big deal and the idea that someone has tastes different from mine isn't a surprise either {asexuality and indifference is a bit of a puzzler to me though as well as this "oh, it's beneath me" reaction to typical fanservice; That means it's recognize and accepted as such but passed off as something debasing the work? "I like this stuff from this/those artists but I don't like that? It's all entertainment in the end, how can you not be enjoying yourself even when you're disrespecting the artist's intent? I mean, it sure sounds like some of you enjoy complaining about it}.

I take actual insults to my intelligence, ie bad plots, stupid plot devices, mischaracterizations and boring stories personally but fanservice? Icing on the entertainment cake in my book. I have a Left and Right brain after all.

What male-oriented fanservice should learn from Free!? Nothing, Free! should learn a bit from them and be less self conscious about pandering to its audience. {But I haven't seen Free! yet as it's still on the Crunchyroll's "do not fly" list but eventually, maybe... but from what I do know, there should be no need for an audience surrogate like Gou}

Animegomaniac wrote:

Here's a new one though: Hentai or maybe it's just animated porn or Japanese porn or maybe just Japan itself, has a tendency to be misogynistic.

No, no, the new idea is that someone's just realizing this now.

Would you kindly read a post before responding to it? Nowhere did I say "Gosh gee willikers, I found something that doesn't treat its women characters well! I never knew such was possible!"; I merely reached to find a counterexample I had actually seen since I've a good track record of picking ecchi shows I'll like and the only ones I didn't simply failed to engage me(though I made it about halfway through Chubra before the underwear trivia ceased to worth the rest of the show).

If there's anything Free! does that's "different" from most male-oriented fanservice shows, it's that it's slightly better at contextualizing the fanservice and manages to walk a pretty fine line in how long it lingers on the shot.

The main exception to that would be Rei's penguin-speedo-clad ass in this previous episode, which filled up the screen for a couple of lines of dialogue. (That was somewhat offset by the innate ridiculousness of a guy with a penguin on his ass complaining that he's just not aerodynamic enough to swim properly, but.)

I sort of feel if that same shot was in a male-oriented show, it might have been similar in execution, except the people behind the show would have felt the need to cap it off by having the girl in question adjust the lines of her suit, or a slight jiggle when she clenched her ass.

Those cues might seem minor, but I think that accounts for quite a bit of the difference in feel in fanservice. It's not so much what you're showing as it is how long you're showing it and how you draw attention to the fact that you're showing it in the first place. Fanservice with a "." as opposed to a "!!" in other words.

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