Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Pornography for Women
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maaya
Posts: 976 |
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Eruanna, that's why this discussion thread exists.
Everybody can answer to - confirm or disagree with - what has been said in the discussion (maybe they'll even pick up some of those point in a future discussion round). Especially in this case, where quite a few of them seemed completely unaware of the existence of such a genre, the contributions of people knowledgable about this field are more than welcome, I suppose ^^ So go ahead =) On the other hand, maybe it would be nice if the contributers would take more of an active part in the forum discussions as well. Bamboo is pretty active on here, but else I think I've only seen Sara reacting to the posts in the discussion thread? Sorry, if I'm wrong and I suppose you're also pretty busy ... but it would make things (even) more interesting imho ^^ |
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reannaking
Posts: 1 |
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Okay, I really have to say how I feel on this.
I've looked at a lot of heterosexual porn that is meant for women. And it's mostly BORING AS ALL HELL. You know what, I'm a girl. I'm even a girl who's been sexually assaulted in her childhood, but I just like my rape porn, the weirder the better, as long as there's no extreme bloodletting, death or any kind of extreme violence. I really have no way to explain it other than that people just get turned on by different things. Being disgusted by rape porn is okay. I'm disgusted by certain kinds of porn too, but squealing about how demeaning and evil it is while there are plenty of women who enjoy it and are in perfectly healthy relationships with men-- who may even watch it with them-- is rather infuriating. The spectrum of human sexuality is so vast and varied that I think there's certainly enough room for everyone's tastes. I think that saying about how people liking a certain kind of porn is somehow morally wrong (unless it's real-life porn made by actually raping and hurting people) is the last thing we need, when the hentai fandom is hated and stereotyped enough as it is. |
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Eruanna
 Posts: 451 Location: Canada |
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Okay, so heres the thing.
If you take a look at non-rape and non-degrading porno made for women, there is a key difference that makes lady porn set apart. Its always the guy doing something to the girl to get her off. he's touching her, giving her oral, pampering her, making her feel good. Seems normal right? If I want to get off to porn, may as well be porn thats making the lady in the porn, the one I connect myself with, get off. So the idea that a guy would spend such amounts of effort on making us experiance sexual pleasure is a very appealing one. But it also puts the man in a more dominant position. He controls the pleasure. He pampers her and takes her for a wild ride, he guides her. So the more passive role, womens rights and such aside, does have its appeal. And not just to women either, theres plenty male degredation porn out there too. Dominatrix is pretty popular. Takin a passive sexual role, for certain people, is a huge adrenaline rush and a thrill ride. Okay, so now one can extend that a little bit. Its not so much a stretch of the imagination to imagine going from "letting a guy drive during sex" and "romantisied rape fantasy". Its just a bit more fetishy, sure, but its not so strange. Especially in all the shojo smut manga Iv read, the stories are of rape and sexual abuse, yes, but its always focused on getting the girl off. The whole "secretly she likes it" motif? Because the guy is taking sadistic pleasure in making her feel good sexually against her will. Its Domination. Its a fetish. Its not as weird as you think it is. |
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Korazy
Posts: 4 Location: Stuck on a shrinking planet |
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Upon reading the orig article and following thread I came to a realization and had to join to share it- us men have been portrayed in the film Twilight as cat obsessed twits.
But, you know, I shan't cry 'I'm offended' or raise placards at the cinema demanding an edit because there are two kinds of people on this planet: Winners and Whiners. Last edited by Korazy on Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:33 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Unit 03.5-ish
Posts: 1540 Location: This space for rent |
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Actually, I really dislike the pretty boy angsty vampires of Twilight and such. Gimme the brooding, spiteful, violent master planners of old any day.
I know some people fetishize rape, but that doesn't mean I have to "get" it. I actually consider a lot of the more...out there fetishes not just weird but illogical, but I won't go into that. I know everyone has their thing, it's just some stuff makes me feel unclean. Transformers porn has scarred me irreparably |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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I'm not going to disagree with you, but I wanted to bring something up. It's an interesting point that the guy is, in fact, pampering the woman and striving to make her feel good. However, before she feels good, she's made to feel extremely bad. Obviously, there's a whole spectrum of such porn-- you have the ones where she's mildly saying no-- but then you have the ones where a woman is dragged in front of her peers and degraded, kicking and screaming, until she gives in and decides she likes it. That's beyond just wanting to please her-- it's putting her through a level of humiliation first. I do think there's a certain sense of delight in enjoying things that are deemed "wrong" by society. I'm not saying that's why all women likes certain kinds of porn, but I think that's why some do. There's a certain thrill to it, and that itself can be arousing. Now, I'm going to wager that there are many, many more women who occasionally enjoy the rape fantasy or the degradation fantasy than are willing to admit to it on the forums.  I have my own set of fantasies that I'm not entirely comfortable blabbing onto the Internets. I'm just saying that although it may seem that people are ganging up on the vocal ones, I don't really think that's the case.
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martina_SMO
Posts: 5 |
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Duh. As if I didn't know already what "people" think of them. Look, I don't need anybody telling me what is good and what is bad. Especially if it's someone who's never read romances.
I hope someone will be able to understand my previous post, since you obviously didn't. I'm not trying to compare romance to "high literature". I pointed out that something Bamboo thinks it's common to all romance (rape fantasies) actually belongs to the past. You CAN'T judge something you don't know, and if you're writing an article/discussion where you mention romance, you should KNOW what you're talking about. Otherwise you'd better shut up. We're talking about romance and shoujo manga, not romance and Dostoevskij. Romance and shoujo manga have so much in common, I don't see the point in getting all snotty about romance while keeping shoujo manga in high consideration. |
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liannesentar
Posts: 29 |
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The whole "humiliate you in public" motif is far, far more common in hentai aimed for men than smut aimed for women. If shoujo smut/josei porn includes a "public sex" scene, it's usually, "We're going to have sex in a closet whether you want to or not, keep your voice down or somebody will hear you." That's pretty different from "I'm going to assault you in front of a bunch of people until you're crying." I think the inherent problem with this discussion is we're all discussing all types of porn, and when it comes to porn, intent, audience, tone, and fetish can all change a work drastically. When we're talking about "rape" porn, a hentai with a violent gang rape and a shoujo smut where a male classmate forcefully goes down on a girl (somebody mentioned Ren Ai Shijo Shuji already, right?) have very little in common. We're not talking about rape, we're talking about the various forms that rape can take in a fantasy--and those forms can differ DRASTICALLY, from violent rapes to the rapes mentioned earlier when a man is pleasing a woman against her will. I've heard actual rape victims defend shoujo with rape fantasies, with the claim that "this is a safe fantasy and is nothing like actual rape." So here we have more cases of people making blanket judgments about comics, situations, and feelings that the same people don't have first-hand experience with (and thank God not many people have first-hand experience with ACTUAL rape, which everyone agrees is one of the worst crimes on earth). Nobody has to "get" anybody else's porn or anybody else's feelings on sex. We just have to assume that the spectrum of sexual fetish is a broad one, and perfectly healthy people can read porn that you find gross and enjoy it simply as a cathartic experience. Does everybody who watches a violent movie think stabbing your enemies is acceptable in real life? Of course not. If you're going to judge people on the porn they read, which is, by definition, supposed to be exploitative for the purpose of catharsis, then swing the pendulum the other way and judge EVERYBODY on what they read...especially on those violent/sexist/whatever comics that aren't labeled as "porn" and thus are intended to be taken more seriously. I find insidious messages of violence or sexual violence in non-porn far more disturbing than whatever weird kink porn someone is reading to get some frustration out. |
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Ian K
 Posts: 250 |
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Something that has been pretty much ignored in the discussion of female rape fantasies to this point is the issue of responsibility.
If a woman is forced to have sex, then she isn't responsible for breaking social mores. In the USA it is still largely considered wrong for women to engage in sex before marriage, and in Japan these forces must be much stronger. I read a blog post not too long ago (which I cannot now find for the life of me) that posited that the reason why so much erotic manga written for women has the females being raped is because then the readers who are identifying with them don't have to feel guilty about enjoying something that goes against social mores. If this is the case, I find it pretty unfortunate. Too many woman here in the 'liberated' west allow themselves to be walked over by their boyfriends, and I can only imagine that it is worse in Japan. In general, I feel that no good comes from porn. I can't see how getting sexual pleasure from fantasies would do anything but hurt real life relationships. |
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ArthurFrDent
 Posts: 466 |
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So, Ian, what are you saying about responsibility, exactly? Your post seems rather contradictory to me... so please 'splain...
But a couple'a things... while what you say about premarital might be true if you just ask opinions especially of middle aged adults who might have some regret, I think that people are actually quite neutral on this point in practice. You have to ask yourself how much general practice is equal to tacit approval, even if unspoken. I think you will find most younger adults would voice approval directly. This is often a case of do as I say, not as I did... I can't speak to how it is in Japan, perhaps someone else will. "I can't see how getting sexual pleasure from fantasies would do anything but hurt real life relationships." Ian K I take this to mean that you will only ever live in the now? fantasy is a spectrum related to the human ability to imagine the future, and an existance other than themeselves. When you spy a person walking down the street who makes you sweat just a little and wonder what it is to wake up with them, that is fantasy. How would you ever decide to approach them if you didn't thave that curiosity? By extension fantasies can play out to desire beyond a person you happen to be with. This is a basic piece of your imagination, without which you wouldn't be able to have those real life relationships. |
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Ian K
Posts: 250 |
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AFD - Thanks for the comment, sorry if I worded myself poorly.
My point is, if the reader's alter ego in the story is resisting something that the reader feels is wrong (in this case sex), they can ignore the guilt more easily and enjoy it better. As for premarital sex, I was speaking in broad generalities. It varies quite a bit from person to person and around the country. I guess what I should have said is that it is considered wrong for women to be overtly sexual - having sex before marriage is accepted/condoned as long as it is private, but someone who is too outgoing (or gets pregnant) is labeled a 'slut' or something similar. My statement about the effects of pornography came from my conclusions about the world. My (admittedly limited) observations and experience have led me to believe that sex is best in a monogamous relationship between two people that love each other. It helps draw the two people together and deepen their relationship. Having sexual experiences outside of that relationship tend to dilute the benefits of sex, and may even harm the relationship. Did I explain myself better this time? |
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Eruanna
Posts: 451 Location: Canada |
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shoot. double posted by accident.
Last edited by Eruanna on Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Eruanna
Posts: 451 Location: Canada |
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Well, no, actually that section of my post was discribing regular, run of the mill vanilla lady porn, all consensual. I went on to later explain how that concept can then be expanded to become what your talking about. Besides which,
..is absolutly true. Your mixing up hentai for guys and smut manga for women. |
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Grendel_61
Posts: 1 |
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I'm glad that the topic of objectifying women was brought up in the discussion, feminist views on pornography were probably new to some of the readers here.
For anyone who does not know what feminism is, or might be confused on what they think feminism is, read this: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roundup/ |
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ArthurFrDent
Posts: 466 |
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Yeah IanK, I suss you better now...
"Having sexual experiences outside of that relationship..." IanK One thing I'll note, and a lot of people here have in various places said, it that there is a big difference between experiences and fantasy. It may read as common knowledge, but sometimes it needs to be seen in words... If the fantasy supplants reality, sure, this is a problem, if you aren't on the same page, it can also be a problem. The existance of fantasy in itself isn't the issue, it is how it is used. Had this argument once with someone who was convinced that prn. was the worst thing EVAR! while adimitting that she would imagine her boyfriend was some hot guy to make herself more interested. To me, it's the same thing, to her not. |
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