Forum - View topicBest Hero/Heroine Tournament: Finished!
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Group D-29
Ashitaka, Princess Mononoke vs. Kamina, Gurren Lagann Kamina I have been voting for Ashitaka in the previous rounds, but he never struck me as a great hero. Group D-30 Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms Youko Nakajima I'm not familiar with Gurren Lagann but Youko is an impressive character as she has become a capable leader that can take care of her country. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group D-29
Voting for: Kamina, Gurren Lagann Reasons: Still incredibly underwhelmed by Ashitaka plus I think even if I wasn't I would still go for Kamina, given what I have heard (though I think I sort of wish he and Simon were flipped, since Simon seems like he might be stronger and more likely to finally get rid of Ashitaka). Group D-30 Voting for: Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms Reasons: And this is another reason why I wish Kamina were the one here because Youko deserves to go another round but I'm not sure she'll manage it against Simon, based on what I've heard about him. But either way, she has my vote and hopefully it will be competitive. |
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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Right-o. Last edited by arachneia on Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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Wow, I really am off on my predictions. I never would have thought Simon would be losing in any round other than possibly the finals. He may start off seeming like a weaker hero, but thanks to Kamina we know that he always came through when the chips were down even before the series started. He does go through two bouts with depression, but never truly gives up. Given what he goes through, if he did not show some depression, then he wouldn't be human. Warning: series-breaking spoilers in the tags that follow. spoiler[He loses his parents to the merciless underground where he is basically a prisoner and scorned by everyone but Kamina. His brother dies in battle, and the rest of the crew except for Nia has doubts about him. After proving himself as a leader and warrior fighting for humanity, he gets stuck in a political position that he really isn't suited for. His fiance turns out to have an alien trigger hidden in her genes that causes her to lose herself. He is unjustly accused by one of his friends of war crimes and sentanced to death "for the greater good". His entire species is targeted for extermination by other races, and he faces one battle after another over the course of the series. ]
His response to all of this? He not only never truly gives up, but finds a way to make things go the way they need to. When told that there is almost no chance of something working, he replies that the "almost" makes it 100% possible in his mind. spoiler[Spiral energy is basically a forced evolution through the sheer willpower of a persons mind, and Simon constantly breaks through what should be the normal limits and gets infinitely stronger.] spoiler[While others gave up when they were all held prisoner, Simon kept digging and fought his way free. He beat the spiral king in a one-on-one fight while still a child. Even when betrayed, he risked everything to protect his city. Where others only tried to save about 1/10th of the human population, Simon refused to give up on anyone. He later not only keeps the man who ordered him put to death from killing himself, but managed to find a way for him to be redeemed. He sees the good in a long time enemy and works together with him in arguably the strongest pair ever to pilot Gurren Lagann. Thanks to his determination, not only is humanity saved when the day is done, but he is even able to reach Nia and have his wedding, her determination turning what should be a very sad ending into one that is oddly full of hope and inspiring. He was satisfied in the end, not becoming a roming loser, but a hero at peace.] Name one other character that can compare to these acts of heroism in only 27 episodes and I just might re-evaluate my choice. Until then it's my belief that Simon deserves to win this whole contest. Luffy's loss last round officially put me out of the running for the minigame, but I just feel that I had to write something after reading some of the earlier comments. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3892 Location: New York state. |
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Match D-29: Ashitaka
Kamina's heroics were a bit on the reckless side with his "kick mecha ass first, ask questions later" approach to heroics spoiler[which proved to be his undoing for his death several episodes into the series.] Ashitaka has a more level head on his shoulders as he thinks before he acts in his crusade to halt the war between Eboshi's ironworks village and the forest animal gods. Match D-30: Simon Interesting match. Here we have two flawed individuals who rise up to become great leaders to those they want to protect. For this match, I'm gonna stick with Simon since there was more on the line for him to deal with and provided more level-headed leadership than the recklessness of Kamina. |
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DarkGyraen
Posts: 34 |
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Since I 'm the primary one on the "Anti-Gurren Lagann" crusade, I guess I'll make a counter argument here:
Actually, in my eyes, Simon repeatedly gives up, and never stands up on his own throughout the course of the entire show. At ever turn when he suffers one of these setbacks, someone comes along and helps him back to his feet, and while I'm not against characters having support, he constantly has to rely upon others and in my eyes, fails to do so on his own merit again and again. I'll get into the examples in a minute.
And here are those examples: spoiler[ He does lose his parents and suffer as a digger, but that's no worse than a million other characters with crappy backgrounds in any other anime. However, he would -never- have gotten out of that situation if not for Kamina, as Simon never had the motivation to do so on his own. He rides Kamina's coat tails out of his village and into the world. When Kamina dies, *as a result of his jealousy over Yoko incidently* he falls into a depression and probably would -not- have come out of it on his own, or ever become a leader if he had not coincidently found Nia, who was the one who helped return him to his normal self. Again, he would have remained in his funk and done nothing if not for that external force. And once Nia turns into the Anti-Spiral messanger and he's sent to prison, he again -gives up- and waits to die. He even watches everyone blast away from the planet and wishes them luck, as he'd have stayed in that prison and died if Viral hadn't pushed him the way he did, and Yoko hadn't come and -pulled- him back to his feet again! Once again, he dosn't stand up on his own, he has to have someone else step in and force him to face his problems. But I digress...let's continue on with the rest of why Simon isn't the hero everyone seems to think he is...]
Again, I think I've covered how exactly Simon -does- give up, repeatedly. spoiler[And as far as breaking through barriers and leading people, he pretty much just mimics what Kamina did, even so far as taking the cape. He never matures into his own person, he simply grows into the person that Kamina -would- have been, you know, if Simon hadn't screwed him and gotten him killed. ]
After all that he went through, I'll admit that he does have -moments- of heroism and leadership, and a great deal of compasion. By all means, I think he's a mediocre hero who has his moments, but those are tempered by even more moments of sheer and uder patheticness. spoiler[ Again, at almost every turn you mentioned though, he quit and gave up, having to have someone come along and pull him back to his feet. And at the end of the show, when Nia's gone and everyone's moved passed Simon, he again gives up on trying to help, even though he has the capability to do alot more for the people around him. Instead, he goes off to be a hermit, forgotten and moping. I'm sorry, but nothing about how he ends up makes me think heroism, but perhaps I have a different ideal of heroism. ]
It depends on if you're talking about simple scale or quality of character in my book. I don't think scale should be the major factor, because if it is, characters such as Goko should be in the finals, as he saves untold -planets- from greater evil than the anti-spirals. But he's been eliminated, because scale alone dosn't make one a hero. I personally think it's how they embody heroism that makes them more impressive, which is why I personally think Youko is a much, much better choice than Simon. spoiler[By all means, she's not perfect either, and she has her moments of weakness, hell, she even begins to lose her mind at one point due to enemy attacks. But she's forced to stand on her own feet more often than Simon, she takes it upon herself to learn about the role she's been thrust into. She's no more than a normal high schooler at the beginning, who is pulled from her world, forced to deal with assassins and monsters trying to kill her, told she's to be a queen. She has to learn to be a good ruler, see what the others are doing wrong and learn to be just, fair and strong at the same time. She has to go into battle at the end for the good of her kingdom. If you look at how each character deals with the situation they face, I personally think Youko has a worse situation, as she dosn't have the support that Simon always has, and she evolves into a -MUCH- better leader than Simon. At the end of the show, she's the pinacle for how other leaders should act, a model leader and loved by her people. While Youko is an amazingly strong and competent leader at the end of her show, Simon's an old hermit moping about at the end of his.] Side by side, I think they are similar characters, but I just think Youko overcomes her troubles with alot less help, stands on her own alot more, and ends up a stronger character because of what she overcame than Simon. But, I just figured I'd provide a counter point, as it's obvious throughout this competition and especially at this point, everyone is weighing their choices on slightly different beliefs, and that's going to happen. At least it's been interesting! |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18223 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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For those who are interested, after the initial burst of votes, both matches are at mere 5-4 spreads, making this by far the most competitive group this round.
Ashitaka being on the upside here is a minor surprise to me, while Youko being on the upside is a major one. I suspect those advantages won't hold in at least one of those cases, as for all of Ashitaka's merits Kamina still has an undeniable appeal (I had a very hard time justifying voting against him) and most of the complaints made against Simon could pretty much also be made against Youko (she didn't get where she ended up without a good amount of help, support, and promotion, either). |
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Miranox
 Posts: 247 Location: Montreal, Canada |
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Now, more than ever, the characters are fairly evenly matched and it all comes down to personal preference and whether or not the voters have seen these shows. Arguments used against one can also be used against the other, so it's hard to be objective at this point.
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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DarkGyraen, I fundamentally disagree with your analysis of Simon at the end of the series. You say that he runs away spoiler[after Nia's death, abandoning the people of Earth and "moping" over Nia. I believe that Simon recognized that he was no longer the type of hero that was needed for the betterment of the world. When the beastmen were defeated, the Gurren Brigade assumed control by default because they had led the revolution. This isn't always the best method of governing. Simon's talents did not lay in leading people through peacetime, but through doomsday scenarios of adversity.
Also, there is no evidence of him moping, he has come to terms with the fact that his time of glory is past, and he doesn't try to cling to it, but rather stands aside and allows a new generation of leaders to step up to the different set of challenges facing them.] |
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DarkGyraen
Posts: 34 |
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Well, I'm sure that there will be no shortage of people who disagree with me on the Simon arguments, but that's to be expected. But it's fun to disagree as long as nobody gets upset.
As far as Simon at the end of TTGL I guess it's all a matter of how you look at it. spoiler[ Is he moping exactly, perhaps, perhaps not. All you see of him is like 20 years later, when some little kid can't open a coconut and Simon helps him out, and the kid pretty much ignores him, as it displays that the child, likely like the rest of the world, has forgotten Simon. That's the impression I got at least. Either way, there's more that he could have done with his life than go be a hermit. You can say that he stepped aside for the future generation to lead, but that just dosn't make sense. When people lead everyone through tough times like that, their experience and leadership is always looked to, regardless of how skilled they are at it. If he was a true leader and hero, he would have accepted that challenge as well. But he didn't, he felt he'd done his job, lost Nia, and obviously just didn't want to be bothered with the world anymore. That's the impression I got, but again, he had a trend of having that attitude all along.] As far as Key's statements that Youko is very similar to Simon, and that she gets quite a bit of help and support as well, that's very true. She has guards, other kings and evenspoiler[ a friend/enemy from her home] that she learns to lean on. But those people weren't always there, and often she had to stand on her own, which is what I think makes her different than Simon. More importantly is the end case though. Who's the better, stronger character when the credits roll? I'd have a hard time accepting that Simon is the stronger character at the end of his show. He did more grand deeds in terms of scale, I won't argue that, but at the end, when everything is said and done, Youko is so much more powerful and inspiring a character than Simon from an all around character stand point. But, I guess I should stop with my arguments at this point, I think I've said my piece, a couple of times. I'll admit, I tend to get worked up when TTGL is involved. 
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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I want to pipe up on the Ashitaka/Kamina match. First of all I have no doubts about Ashitaka's heroism. He tries to preserve peace in a desperate situation with almost certain fruitless results-yet he succeeds. He places himself in danger again and again (saving Sen's life, spoiler[getting shot in Lady Aboshi's village, and then eventually returning the forest spirit's head at great risk to himself].
I have larger issues with Kamina. Sure, Kamina does great things spoiler[while he's alive. But he isn't even in the series for the majority of it!] He may be an inspiration for Simon and a larger-than-life figure, but he's not actually doing the heroic deeds. |
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farichada
 Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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Match D-29: Kamina
Dismissing Kamina as just a reckless one dimensional hero couldn't be further from the truth. Kamina's character harnesses the very essence and purest and most unrestrained form of heroics. While it doesn't seem like it at first, his character is very pure and he never wavers on his principles - something that many of the other finalists can't seem to get down. Kamina is a very inspirational character and his bravado and what he stands is overlooked or misinterpreted. At his core, Kamina is not only well intentioned, but willing to do whatever it takes to fight evil. To argue that his spoiler[ death was caused by merely his recklessness is a misrepresentation of the facts, he sacrificed his life serving as solider in conditions that are inherently dangerous. ]Standing your ground like sticking to your principles is an important aspect of hero that Kamina has down to the point that it makes his competition look inferior. Match D-30: Simon While similarities exists between the characters, this is a much easier choice than it first appears. You have two heroes that start lowly, but turn into something greater. On one hand, you have Youko who becomes something that heroic than actually having a focus of accomplishing heroic things and on the other side you have Simon, who not only changes the very core of his personality to become heroic, brave, and an excellent leader, but accomplishes a slew of accomplishments along the way. It would be wrong to say that Youko has no accomplishments to back up her heroics, but at the same time it clearly isn't a focus or dominant factor like it is with Simon. Simon simply has more versatility than Youko, and it also doesn't help Youko's case that I found the moral and aura behind Simon's coming of age transformation tremendously more moving, heroic, and inspirational than Youko's overly grandiose and obtuse "transformation". Last edited by farichada on Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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D-29:
Ashitaka. Whatever Kamina's achievements may be, they cannot in any way measure up to Ashitaka being forced to halt his own emotions - and very rightful pain and anger - in order to survive. D-30: Simon. Going with the popular vote. |
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AbyssalOne
 Posts: 24 |
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Group D-29
Ashitaka, Princess Mononoke vs. Kamina, Gurren Lagann Voting for: Kamina Reason: I think Kamina's heroism is outstanding simply because it inspires the entire human race espoiler[specially after his martyrdom. By dying, ]Kamina pushes everyone, most notably Simon, into the realms of their true potential. Group D-30 Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms Voting for: Simon Reason: Yoko had a lot of moments during her development that felt either very unheroic or wall-banging-ly indecisive. In addition, the scale of Simon's heroic feats dwarf Yoko's by a quite massive margin. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18223 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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And Simon doesn't? Please. That's one of the many areas where these two are very similar. "Scope of heroic deeds" I find a more legitimate argument, as that's the one thing Simon has that Youko can't match. |
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