Forum

Pixelationist wrote:

Etrien wrote:

That comparison stands only if said building is fully sentient on a level equivalent to humans. One that has thoughts, feelings, dreams, and aspirations. One that moves and smiles and laughs and cries. Oh, and being human-sized, human-shaped and having been born and raised as a human its whole life certainly would help give it qualification.

If I met a building like that I would definitely fall in love with it.

Until you reach the twist where you find out that the building...is also your little sister!

(You saw it here first! Plot of the yet-to-be-announced, sure-to-be smash-hit: Tatemonogatari!)

Etrien wrote:

That comparison stands only if said building is fully sentient on a level equivalent to humans. One that has thoughts, feelings, dreams, and aspirations. One that moves and smiles and laughs and cries. Oh, and being human-sized, human-shaped and having been born and raised as a human its whole life certainly would help give it qualification.

One could argue she doesn't have human thoughts, feelings, dreams, and aspirations anymore. She's not fully in charge of her own mental faculties, as evidenced by spoiler[the rigor mortis incident where she attacked Ranko and him, where she licks his wound, and the ending when she bites him.] She might be human-sized and shaped, but she has super-human strength, her body is rotting, and won't heal. Her mental situation is unstable at best. She's slowing changing.

All the points you guys are focusing on are reasons we can "identify" with her enough as a character. If she was a mindless zombie, no one could identify with her. From a writing stand-point, you have to do that. But also, you have to remind people that she's not human. And that's was my point about the building. BTW, there is a condition where people fall in love with buildings. And they talk about the building having emotions, feelings, etc. Smile

And as for whether I think it's ok to fall in love with and have a romantic relationship with disabled or terminally ill people, I have always felt that relationships must be between equals. I do not believe it's ok for someone with full mental faculties to have a relationship with someone who has diminished capacity. That is equivalent, imho, to having a relationship with a child. And that's how we often describe people with mental disabilities (i.e. child-like). However, relationships with people who have physical disabilities or terminally ill people I don't have a problem with. I find them sad sometimes, but I find no moral objection to it. But again, those people remain human.

Again, I don't see this as comparable to a situation of a terminally ill or disabled person. In both cases they remain human, whereas Rea is not.

So what's my problem with the "dead" label? I value human existence. I value life as it stands, it's reasons for being, and the natural flow of time and existence. We are born, we live, and then we die. To shirk death is to defy those laws and I find that an abomination.

From your post, I can imagine where your next argument will start...racism, misogyny, etc, am I right? It's different. To recall the building example, let's make it a little more effective...is it ok for people to have romantic relationships with animals? And why isn't it? Is it just because they don't have the same mental capacity as humans, or is there something naturally wrong in the pairing?

Rea is not human, no matter which way you slice it. While she might look human, sometimes act human, she's not. Her existence is outside our own. Some might like to bring up pairings in anime and for the most part I would remain consistent in this belief.

However, and this is a big point, this is obviously fantasy and not reality (as Etrien said) and you suspend your disbelief for these things. And in anime I've done that and will continue to do so. My problem here was from a story-telling standpoint, I felt that it was much more solid for him to have spoiler[paired with Ranko than Rea because I felt that the mangaka's story was pushing towards making this distinction we've been talking about and I really felt there was a great point to be made about these impossible relationship pairings and stuff.] I could be wrong though, but just how I was interpreting it.[/quote]

@ Riddley - the problem with your point is that, as far as the anime is concerned, we are really only at the midpoint of the story (or less). It may be all we ever get, but it is also possible that it may carry on. If it doesn't carry on, then it ends at a not great place, for sure.

If it carries on, there are only three basic outcomes: 1) tragedy - i.e. along the lines of whatever happened spoiler[to Chihiro's mom;] b) comedy - Chihiro finds away to reverse the zombie process; Rea becomes a living girl again and they live happily ever after (part and parcel of this outcome would require Chihiro to mature to the point where he no longer fantasizes about having a zombie girlfriend); or, c) absurdity - a way is found to keep Rea as she is now and she and Chihiro live happily ever after.

If it was to be c) I'd sort of share your perspective.

In any case, as much as I personally love Ranko, the show has not delineated in any fashion why she and Chihiro should be together. They have nothing in common. I really have no idea why she digs him other than he was nice to her when they were small kids - my least favourite anime "explanation" for infatuation/love. He basically treats her with massive indifference bordering on rudeness. She needs to find a real man and be done with this zombie-obsessed, immature little boy.

I will go through my list of couples which are now void of being allowed romance.

Belldandy and Keiichi - Keiichi is a normal human that is rather naive, Belldandy is an ageless goddess who's actual form apparently is rather different from human (it would be a reverse to where a human is the child)

Hideki and Chii - She is a robot that you could say he raised.

Mina and Akira - He a living teenage boy, and she a very old vampire (dead?), although some might see another problem.

Mahiro and Nyarko - She is an eldritch abomination.

Yoko and Keita - Old fox spirit.

Nagi and Jin - Land deity with an unknown possible age, and an existance that would be way to much for a normal teenage boy.

Niche and Lag - Not just physical, but it seems that her personality problems seem to be something inherent with what she is, she may stay rather childish.

Jun and Shinku - She is a doll.

Ikaros and Tomoki - She is a robot angel that is specifically stated to have a stagnant emotional maturity.

Holo and Lawrence - Regular human and ancient giant wolf thing.

Celty and Shinra - She is a Dulahan with a rather inhuman biology.

I think that all of the cases kind of went through looking if the fact one person was not human and asked if it mattered, as long as they all took informed decisions it was their business. And did anyone have any right to say that it was really bad.

PS. I saw a documentary on the thing about people being in love with buildings, I just thought that it would not be helpful to throw in the example of people getting off on the Eiffel tower.

DuskyPredator wrote:

Mina and Akira - He a living teenage boy, and she a very old vampire (dead?), although some might see another problem.

He's also spoiler[a werewolf], so this is actually a pairing of two nonhumans.

But I agree with the underlying point being made here. Start analyzing how healthy long-term nearly any romantic relationship between a human and a non-human is and things usually fall apart pretty quickly. Sometimes that's even a plot point: in the case of Lawrence and Holo, for instance, the fact that she will long, long outlive him, and that a god and a human falling in love can have all kinds of other complications, is brought up on a regular basis. That's why nearly all of these stories - Sankarea included - focus on the here-and-now. I even see a built-in assumption in these stories that these love stories are only ultimately temporary situations for one or both parties.

And it's hardly like this is an anime-only phenomenon, either. The Twilight franchise is built on this kind of premise, and stories of this nature can be traced at least as far back as the myths about the ancient Greek gods.

Blood- wrote:

In any case, as much as I personally love Ranko, the show has not delineated in any fashion why she and Chihiro should be together. They have nothing in common. I really have no idea why she digs him other than he was nice to her when they were small kids - my least favourite anime "explanation" for infatuation/love. He basically treats her with massive indifference bordering on rudeness. She needs to find a real man and be done with this zombie-obsessed, immature little boy.

A very good point that I completely agree with. (Although I'm still more of a Rea fan. Cool

)

@Key - I agree, but I suppose I really wanted to see an anime finally DEAL with that. I haven't found any yet that I've watched where they've dealt with that, aside from Spice & Wolf, but even then it didn't really deal with it so much, as you point out, as punting it.

I agree to a point about the relationship with Ranko and Chihiro. With many stories we have to imply relationship in the past, before you're watching the story. Now, I personally think you still need development in that relationship during the story and I agree that what the writers tried to do as development wasn't good enough (he was just nice to her), but I think it sufficiently explained as a beginning point why she has feelings for him. I think in further episodes there'd need to be development there though of course.

I still think Rea was a throwaway character though. I've seen lots like her, didn't find anything that stood out really.

Blood- wrote:

In any case, as much as I personally love Ranko, the show has not delineated in any fashion why she and Chihiro should be together. They have nothing in common. I really have no idea why she digs him other than he was nice to her when they were small kids - my least favourite anime "explanation" for infatuation/love. He basically treats her with massive indifference bordering on rudeness. She needs to find a real man and be done with this zombie-obsessed, immature little boy.

Because it's animu. Illogical romances are par for the course no?

Riddley wrote:

I still think Rea was a throwaway character though. I've seen lots like her, didn't find anything that stood out really.

Even after all of your posts, I'm just not seeing how you're coming to that conclusion. I would have thought episode 2 would have made it quite clear that she wasn't.

Now, is she one of the greatest characters to come along in quite a while? No, not by a longshot. Her personality is actually fairly ordinarily once you ignore her highly unusual circumstances and, honestly, she's a bit too cutesy when she's pitching her fits. In her case, though, it's her circumstances much moreso than her character that matter. (By comparison, in DMoA, Yuuko's circumstances and her character are not only equally important but so inextricably intertwined by the plot that, by the late stages of the series, you can't consider them separately.)

Well to be fair, my posts weren't focused on why I felt she was a throwaway character Smile

I'll be honest, I'm not totally sure why I feel that way about her. It's something to do with how she acts not meshing with her traumatic experiences (as you mentioned, with her family circumstances).

Something about her after the change...like before that I think she was great, but then she became a zombie and it was like...ok she's grand. I dunno, just something there not working well for me, can't explain it any better Smile

Riddley wrote:

One could argue she doesn't have human thoughts, feelings, dreams, and aspirations anymore. She's not fully in charge of her own mental faculties

One could. But, that still only mirrors real-world ailments. There are plenty of examples where people briefly lose awareness or are compelled to actions beyond their conscious thoughts. Even if we ignore mental illness, things like drug addiction can even fit this description. But I think we still consider these people....people. Wink

Quote:

All the points you guys are focusing on are reasons we can "identify" with her enough as a character.

I'm more focused on the definition of personhood.

Quote:

She might be human-sized and shaped, but she has super-human strength, her body is rotting, and won't heal. Her mental situation is unstable at best. She's slowing changing.

This is getting redundant by now, but that still does little to set her apart from a real person with a real ailment. "Human sized, human shaped, but her body isn't functioning normally and she's deteriorating." And actually, that brings me to a different point. When I was talking about mental ailments, I didn't mean something where a normal person was courting someone with significantly diminished capacity. Instead, I was thinking more along the lines of a situation (like Rea) where they began normally, but are slowly degenerating, such as with Parkinson's or dementia. A high-functioning mental affliction, like Aspergers's, can also be used in comparison to Rea as someone who is mostly functionally normal, just with a few additional quirks or difficulties.

Quote:

Rea is not human, no matter which way you slice it. While she might look human, sometimes act human, she's not.

And part of what I've wanted, I suppose, is your definition of human. Your definition of alive would also be helpful. By mine, she's both alive and human.

Your comment about my possibly comparing it to racism might prove helpful. Do you think that interracial romance is okay? I'm going to assume that you do. So, just for a moment, imagine that you've lived your entire life only knowing a single race (your own), and are first exposed to a new and very different race at a later time in life. Don't you think your reaction to Rea now is similar to one a person might have in that situation? After all, the new race - despite "looking human and sometimes acting human" - falls outside the boundaries of what you've come to know and recognize as human. But, because the real you has likely been raised with exposure to many different races, you can correctly see that despite the small differences, we're all still human. But, I suspect that people raised in that hypothetical circumstance might not be able to accept this reality.

If Sankarea was real life (which makes this a really absurd conversation), Rea's condition would (upon discovery) likely be classified into an actual medical condition and the connotations of "undead" and "zombie" would be phased out as archaic superstition. (Just like the majority of physical and mental ailments have had supernatural "explanations" prior to their scientific one. Mental illness? Demon possession! Left-handed? Deeemons!!)

Really, though, we've probably exhausted this conversation without my knowing your definition of what makes a person, and why Rea does not qualify. Genetically, Rea is human. She's lived her life as a human. She is animate and cognitive and seems to function on a reasonably normal level. Her shortcomings are comparable to real, living people. Is it just the lack of a pulse?

Riddley wrote:

Rea is not human, no matter which way you slice it. While she might look human, sometimes act human, she's not. Her existence is outside our own. Some might like to bring up pairings in anime and for the most part I would remain consistent in this belief.

You are totally entitled to that opinion Riddley, but I am bemused as to why you would stand so staunchly in this particular case when the "zombie" angel is played so arbitrarily by the writers. Rea does not "sometimes act human" as you put it, in terms of pure screen time she is 95% human with just a couple of lapses here and there.

Part of my frustration with the show is how they didn't exploit the "human/monster relationship" angle further. Rea is far too human for there to be any real internal struggle for Chihiro. It would have been more interesting if Rea's feral side presented a much bigger threat and therefore pushing Chihiro to continually struggle and question his love for her. I haven't read the manga so perhaps the story is headed there, but those 12 episodes sure went no where.

Pixelationist wrote:

I haven't read the manga so perhaps the story is headed there, but those 12 episodes sure went no where.

Is there another season planned, or did you mean that the manga might be headed in that direction?

It did feel like a zombie-slice-of-life half the time, which is probably paradoxical on some level.

@Etrien - You're probably right about exhausting the convo. Probably best to just leave it. I think we just disagree on some philosophical/theological levels that then lead to the disagreement about having a relationship with a zombie Smile

Best to agree to disagree I think!

Pixelationist wrote:

You are totally entitled to that opinion Riddley, but I am bemused as to why you would stand so staunchly in this particular case when the "zombie" angel is played so arbitrarily by the writers. Rea does not "sometimes act human" as you put it, in terms of pure screen time she is 95% human with just a couple of lapses here and there.

Mm I would disagree with that. Once she turns zombie, very quickly she experiences rigor mortis, then goes into that trance spoiler[licking and molesting Ranko, then attack-kissing Chihiro, then zombie crawling/following the cat to get hydrangias]. I mean, I felt there were subtle and not-so-subtle hints throughout the rest of the anime that pointed towards this distinction...her red eyes, her leaking wound, etc.

I do agree with your second point though. I would have liked to have seen them have played on that struggle more where she acts less and less human. But as you said, maybe it needs more eps.[/spoiler]

Pixelationist wrote:

Part of my frustration with the show is how they didn't exploit the "human/monster relationship" angle further. Rea is far too human for there to be any real internal struggle for Chihiro. It would have been more interesting if Rea's feral side presented a much bigger threat and therefore pushing Chihiro to continually struggle and question his love for her. I haven't read the manga so perhaps the story is headed there, but those 12 episodes sure went no where.

Well, the manga kind of goes into this more, but not as much or as quickly as it probably should. Actually, it doesn't really deal with the romantic angle so much as it deals with whether/when Chihiro should/will need to (vague spoiler) spoiler[euthanize her]. (more specific spoiler)spoiler[He has already had to try to kill Babu because he has deteriorated into the cannibalistic kind of zombie, and it seem like only a matter of time before he is going to have to kill Rea (unless he finds a cure, which is also possible)]. As of now, the manga has the potential to turn into a tragedy or end happy ever after.

Wow...apparently I need to be reading the manga!

Forum - View topic
Sankarea (TV).

Dahlia in Bloom Staff, Ekachi Epilka Studio Respond to Report Claiming N. Korean Animators Worked on Anime

The Grimm Variations Anime Series Review

Anime to Watch if You Liked Shogun

The Quintessential Quintuplets Manga Gets New Honeymoon Anime

BLUELOCK THE MOVIE -EPISODE NAGI- Anime Film Review

Interview: Author Akihiro Nishino on Bottle George, His New Stop-Motion Animated Film

The Spring 2024 Light Novel Guide

SAND LAND Video Game Review

This Week in Games - Atlus With the Old, In With the New

Forum - View topicSankarea (TV).

Forum

Forum - View topic
Sankarea (TV).