Forum - View topicQuestions to ponder when watching Elfen Lied.
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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After I typed up the below for this thread, I ended up concluding that that particular thread had had enough digressions; it seems to me that the below will simply cause the thread to go on even wilder tangents. That's my opinion, anyway; and I freely admit that I could be wrong.
From: "Evil main characters?" (posted March 4th)
You haven't, eh? I think that you'll either love it or hate it (I don't know if, as of this writing, you've seen the series.). As far as critical reception is concerned, I don't think that there are many middle-of-the-roaders out there, as it were. Here are some question to ponder as you watch all seven hours of it -- assuming, of course, that you haven't already seen it:
(1) I really don't know -- it's so damned subjective. (2) I choose to believe that that Diclonii were no more and no less likely to be psychopathic than Homo Sapiens; (3) The people in charge of the Diclonii should have been jailed; (4) The Diclonii were absolutely human; (5) The Diclonii (as sentient creatures and, thus , fully human) should have been fully entitled to Japanese citizenship; (6) See #3 -- and finally; (7) I barely know enough about Japanese culture to be able to start a discussion; I absolutely don't know enough to offer anything even CLOSE to a comprehensive assessment:
This is all that I can think of; perhaps anyone who is familiar with both Japanese and "mainstream" U.S. culture would be willing to offer their thoughts on the matter. |
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poilk92
 Posts: 433 Location: Long Beach California |
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to what degree are you being serviced while watching this anime?
alot! (btw i love Elfen Lied but i cant help but make fun of its shamelessness) 
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nobahn
Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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I certainly cannot fault anyone for taking issue with its "shamelessness" (Indeed, I do not think that the term "fan service" is quite adequate when describing the nudity and violence; but I try not to be judgmental.   )
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wanderlustking
 Posts: 449 Location: Bozeman, Montana |
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I liked Elfen Lied a lot as well, when I first watched it. Looking back however, I can't help but feel as if the so called "morale plight," of the series was presented in way too simple a format. Put simply, children simply don't beat puppies to death. All of the "bad" charecters were monsters, and all of the "good" characters were nice people; who may have told a few lies, or been filled with jealousy, but never actually intentionally hurt anyone. The only exception to this rule being Nyu/Lucy and Kurama; but the show even presents its morally gray areas in an immature fashion-when Lucy is Lucy she is bad and does bad things (until the last two or so episodes), when she's Nyu, she's an angel, incapable of wishing evil upon others.
But I digress. As far as the violence and nudity is concerned, I thought it was gratuitous. It seems to me like they're taking a emotionally and psychologically weak Aesop, and making it darker and edgier in a shallow attempt to lend it an air of validity. These are my opinions, nothing more, and certainly nothing less. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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1): Well, much of the violence and nudity wasn't gratuitous, however some of it was. Bando was a bit overdone, although I think he was important in some ways as he showed how "regular" humans could be just as evil - if not moreso - than the Diclonius. As for the nudity, it was important to establish how the Diclonius were treated not as regular humans but as lab subjects and even in one case as breeding stock. Surely the whole part with Nyu trying to get Kohta to grope her (and then Yuka wanting the same) creeped me out more than the full-blown nudity did. The OP and ED didn't need the sort of nudity they had, but I would not go so far as to label them gratuitous.
2): It was mentioned in the Anime at least that when Diclonii turn three their powers will develop and they will start killing their own parents. However, I see this as not sinister, at least on an individual level. Young children don't really know right from wrong and aren't really responsible for their actions. Almost all young children have tantrums, it's just that Diclonii have lethal weapons embedded in their bodies. So I think the reason they kill their parents is due to having their vectors rather than having a stronger desire to kill than any ordinary human. I mean, just look at Nana. One of the big reasons why I supported her in the most recent tournament was because she exemplifies how not all Diclonii are psychopaths, so it is not necessarily an inherent trait. That said, the visions full of bloodlust that Lucy had cannot be ignored. Either they are a side-effect from the abuse she has suffered in her life or they stem from some sort of biological urge to kill. However, we must remember it is stated that Nana is the only Diclonius that lacks such an urge, despite being as poorly treated as the rest of them. So she may just be the exception that proves the rule. In the end, I think that such an urge does exist. 3): Oh, absolutely yes. Whereas the actual strength of the biological impetus to kill is debatable, there is no doubt how the actions of humans have only served to make the Diclonii hateful towards humanity. It isn't just how they were locked away and tortured, but also how Lucy's puppy was, well... She was ostracised by her own family and was given her to an orphanage, where she was made fun of and feared. There's also plenty of Manga spoilers which explain just when she solidified her hatred towards humanity. Other Diclonii born in the general population had to live with killing their own parents. So basically, while nature plays a role, it is definitely nurture which makes them the cold-blooded killers they are known for. 4): This one is easy. They are human, in that they have the capacity to reason, to love, to hate, to fear, to laugh, to cry, to be excited or to be bored. 5): Well, they certainly are not morally allowed to wipe out the human race, which is what Lucy threatens will happen. And they certainly should be afforded the same rights as humans, insofar as they shouldn't be persecuted. But I just couldn't see them and humanity living all that harmoniously together. The best thing I think would be to give them their own very large island and let them have their own nation. Of course, that presents its own problems. 6): This question isn't really needed as it falls under question three. Basically, they are hugely responsible. 7): Well, I don't think it was supposed to be much of a commentary. But it does bring up stuff like child molestation, child runaways and parents who hate their kids (as in the tragic case of Mayu), the untrustworthiness of large corporations and the Government, how children can be sociopaths if brought up in the wrong environment, and the whole "cousin thing". Lastly, and most noticeably for me, how society as a whole - and people in general - fears and loathes those who are different. In Japan this is especially true, from everything I've heard. Pretty good topic. It's been a while since I last talked about Elfin Lied like this. |
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cashballer
 Posts: 107 |
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I haven't met anyone who felt indifferently about the series. They either love it and try to see what it has to offer, or think it's a ridiculous loli/gore fest. I loved it. (1) I think the portrayal of themes and underlying messages would suffer greatly if the violence was toned down (of course depending on how much it was toned down). Even to remove just a few of the more brutal body-splattering moments would drastically change the impact it has on the viewer. When I see someone's torso halved, their death hits me much harder than if they get shot, or if their dying is kept entirely off-screen. The intensity of such violence also adds to the contrast between darker and lighter moods throughout the series. On the other hand, I would say the nudity is rather unnecessary, and it doesn't really add anything to the story. (2) It seemed to me that the Diclonii were all born with voices in their heads that eventually start trying to convince them to take over the world and slay people. Even Nana, the good Diclonius, hears this voice. I came to the conclusion that they were inherently psychopathic, but they can overcome the urges to kill if, for example, they find something to care about. (3) Kaede/Lucy's family environment was never described thoroughly, so I wouldn't say for sure that the Diclonii's psychopathy is related to their upbringing, but Nana presents a strong case in that she is treated kindly by Kurama and ends up being an obviously "good" character. (4) I considered the Diclonii to be completely human at the psychological level, besides the psychopathic tendencies I noted in (2). (5) All human rights. (6) Kaede clearly spoiler[killed innocent people] before she met any researchers. That said, after she spoiler[made her friend Aiko Takada (only seen briefly in the OVA I believe), the researchers destroyed any hope of a peaceful life she had; killing her only friend and locking her away until she violently escaped three years later.] In the cases of every Diclonius, it seemed that the researchers left them with no options but to kill or be experiments; thereby barring the possibility that they could live peacefully as human citizens. (7) I don't know much about Japanese culture, but most of the themes brought up by dtm42 were the ones the series got me thinking about. |
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wanderlustking
Posts: 449 Location: Bozeman, Montana |
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I honestly feel pretty meh about Elfen Lied. Like I said before, the firs time I watched it I thought it was great. It just seems a little silly and overrated, now that I have seen things like Kaiba and Kino's Journey. I might not call it a masterpiece anymore, but I certainly don't hate it. |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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1. I don't think the violence was ever gratuitous. The nudity.... well, maybe once or twice, but mainly it was there to show the way the diclonii were treated -- as experimental test subjects, not as human beings or even beings that have feelings and emotions.
2. Hard to say with certainty. They do seem wired a bit differently than humans in some ways. Judging solely by the anime, it is impossible to draw any strong conclusions because NONE of the diclonii shown were raised in a normal setting. There are reports that diclonii children kill their parents, but the details are not given, and we don't know if this is disinformation, either. However, it seems to me that even if they do have a predisposition to slaughtering humans, they can overcome it. Nana is demonstrated as having done so. I think Lucy could come to do so if Kohta helped her. Perhaps the urge to violence is something they outgrow upon reaching maturity, or maybe it gets worse. I think Lucy is the oldest of them, and she wasn't fully an adult yet. 3. I would say MOST, if not all, of their behavior is due to "nurture" (if you want to call it that). I don't recall seeing any cases in the anime where a diclonious is shown to have a "normal" childhood that would provide a "control group" to compare with. If you did treated a normal human child in the same way, I think it would turn out pretty screwed up psychologically, so it's no surprise that a diclonii child would get that way as well. 4. Diclonii display all the same emotional/psychological responses that a human does. The main difference is that humans don't have vectors to act on some of their impulses. 5. The same rights and responsibilities as humans... including the same sort of justice for committing certain acts... like, say, murder. 6. As indicated in #2 and #3: a very great deal. IMO, they acted like monsters, and so it's no surprise that most of the diclonii turned into monsters as a result. If I'd have come across what they'd done, and had the means, I would've killed them all. 7. From what I've gathered, both from watching a lot of anime and from other sources, there are definitely parallels between how the diclonii are treated and the way Japanese view "people". As best as I can tell, the Japanese have a strict, narrow view of what constitutes a person, and what is other. Moreover, how they treat those they define as "other" tends to be pretty harsh, moreso than in most cultures, anyway. OTOH, I don't know if I would call it a major social issue. To the Japanese, it isn't major at all: you conform, and that's all. No big deal. It's expected, and for the most part everyone seems to accept it. If someone were to try to make, say, American culture become more like this aspect of Japanese culture, then yes, that would be a major issue, because a lot of people (most definitely myself included) would fight that tooth and nail. But I don't live in Japan and never will, so it's their business, and it seems they prefer it the way they have it now. |
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OldCharlieStoletheHandle
 Posts: 1288 Location: Mastic Beach, NY |
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And there's nothing wrong with a ridiculous loli/gore fest if it's done well. But, seriously... It's been a while since I watched Elfin Lied but I recall getting the impression that one of the aims of the "researchers" was to be able to use the Diclonii as weapons, which would link the show to a long line of anime about genetically engineered super-soldiers (Armored Trroper Votoms, Pumpkin Scissors and MD Geist to name a few). I also noted a parallel between the attitude of the "scientists" in Elfin Lied and the Nazi "doctors" who performed grotesque experiments on human subjects during WWII (I believe the Japanese military was also guilty of doing this during the war). Since the Diclonii are not "human" they could do anything they wanted to them. |
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Wrathful
 Posts: 372 |
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1. Yes, to me a lot of it was very unnecessary.
2. Not really. It really depends on the characters. 3. Yes, that's what I believe in, evil mostly forms in what environment they are in. 4. They seem very human to me. 5. Human right. 6. Most likely. 7. I'm not sure about it since I'm hardly familiar with their culture. I like to believe this issue is universal and I think it does reflect the human nature very well. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3881 Location: New York state. |
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1. When it doesn't have any relevance to the title's themes it tries to convey such as the human treatment of those different to you being savages. While the nudity of the diclonius was to justify how they mattered nothing more than being an animal to the institution researchers and the violence being the disclonius' response to the treatment they received from humans, scenes where skin exposure is treated as fan service/ ecchi and graphic violence from characters shown without justification seemed to be more gratuitous than symbolic to me. 2. There's not enough information on other diclonius but Lucy to answer this question. In Lucy's case, she did show signs of being a psychopath in response to what she perceived as human cruelty directed at her (spoiler[the kids at the orphanage killing her puppy, killing people at the carnival in response to seeing Kohta with Yuka] ). But when she realizes the reality of the situation, then she snaps out of this psychosis immediately. From what I can tell in the present, her attacks on others aren't due to psychosis. It's more self-preservation considering her life is being targeted. 3. From what has been shown, a diclonius behaves depending on how they are treated in their everyday life much like a person's mentality shaping their perceptions on the world around them being dependent on what they are regularly exposed to. Given Lucy was neglected by both her family and the kids at the orphanage, her mentality on humans was shaped negatively as a result. This would also apply to how diclonius at the institution are treated as well. 4. Diclonius have the ability to reason and express emotions like a normal person, just that they can act on impulse with the vectors when in a negative situation. 5. The same human rights as any other person. 6. Treating the diclonius like they're nothing but cattle will only be bad for the researchers later in the long run. 7. Considering I'm not too familiar with Japanese social issues, I can't really answer this question. |
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KanjiiZ
 Posts: 661 Location: Central Coast |
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One of the supidest shows to come out in the last decade and you make it seems as if there is some deep, philosophical questions to be asked after watching the show.
The nudity is unnecessary, the violence is retarded, and it forces you to feel bad. I enjoyed this show....when I first watched it. Literally two days later I was like "this show is terrible". I was just thirteen when I realized that. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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A: You must have not watched many shows from the past decade then, because I could literally name fifty that I have personally watched which were unquestionably (not just arguably) worse. B: Those questions were asked in the opening post above you, that you cannot deny. So the show must have provoked those sorts of questions, because those questions have been asked. Last edited by dtm42 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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1. To what degree -- if any -- is the violence and nudity gratuitous?
I do not feel it is gratuitous there is certainly plenty of it. However it is meant to be jarring to what one finds socaially acceptable. The Diclonii where treated like animals and you are meant to be appalled at their situation. To use such things gratuitously would be to use them without purpose. I feel the violence and nudity in EL where justified as to it's plot. 2. To what degree -- if any -- are the Diclonii naturally psychopathic? or, to put it another way..... I do not feel that they where. I feel that many of them became animals because that's how they where treated. The amount or nature of the power they used to get their own back is irrelevent. Any human treated that way would be forgiven for picking up a knife and using it. Lucy's early childhood behavior is often quoted. But again she was a child. A child with the power to rip people apart with her mind. Give all children that power and I guarantee not 1 in 10 would hit 20 without being a murdurer. The assumption that Diclonii where psycopathic was a pathetic attempt by humans to refuse to acknowledge the monsters we can become. And espeically a child that can rip the universe apart to get what it wants probably would. Children are highly animalistic. It's not something we like to acknowledge but they are far closer to that brutal state than adults which have that veneer of civilisation to hold back the beast. Why do you think there is a minimum age to be a criminal? Sure the fact that we do not like punishing children with the severity of an adult is real but if it where just that it would not be justified. What makes it justified is the fact that children can not be relied on to keep their own brutality and vices in check. 3. To what degree -- if any -- are the diclonii's behavior a direct result of their "nurturing" environment? See above. 4. To what degree -- if any -- are Diclonii human (Psychologically, not physiologically)? This is a tad more ambigous. It is often said. By humans that the diclonii are the next step in evolution and that they wish to kill humans. However the only time I ever saw one kill a human without reason was by accident. The Diclonii are like giants wherever they put their feet they crush houses. They don't really "mean" to they just do. I believe that they are completely sentient if that's the question. 5. What rights are the diclonii entitled to? I would love to say all and really would. However the sheer extent of their power requires at least some level of oversight. Especially as children who won't really know any better. They would need to have less freedom than most but deserve far more than thay have. 6. To what degree -- if any -- are the researchers at the compound responsible for the Diclonii's actions? Almost all of it. They where essentially trying to harness their immense power for their own benefit. They used the diclonii like lab rats and got bitten. 7. Exactly how well does Elfen Lied reflect major social issues in Japanese culture? I don't know that it really does rather it reflects on the uglier side of human nature. How many soldiers go into battle thinking of their enemies as human. We make up masks. Images of an enemy we place on the faces of others to convince ourselves superficially that we aren't murderurs. But war is murder. Legally sanctioned murder but the nature of the beast does not change. We betray and use each other and profit from the misery of others all the while deluding ourselves that this is none of our concern. When the humans decided that the diclonii where not worthy of ordinary sentient rights they created a barrier in their mind and neatly divided the world between us and them. That allowed them to do anything they wanted and still feel justified in calling themselves human beings. People do this every damn day. Racism, Sexism, Elitism, The face of an enemy at war. It is all the same thing. People dividing sentient beings into catagories and deciding that the rules don't apply to the other side. Only seeing the bestial side of the enemy never looking in the mirror and seeing themselves snarling back. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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I notice that several of the questions posed, most particularly 1), 5) and 6), demand normative answers of the respondent. That is to say, they are questions of a sort that are only typically addressed by the assertion, or at least the mere expression, of a norm. This being the case, one fathoms that addressing the numbered questions I list would require the respondent to express or imply what ought to be the case regarding nudity, entitlements and moral responsibility receptively. (Many respondents on this thread have already done the latter.) A formal explication of any such address would thus require them to state and critically support their beliefs on the what "ought statements" and their associated norms actually are.
The point I wish to draw from this is as follows: for me to answer the question of whether or not I consider the Diclonii to bear an entitlement to certain rights, even if I ignore for convenience the fact they are fictional, would require me to discuss matters pertaining to subjects far broader than the content of Elfen Lied alone. The same applies to the other two questions. The questions pertaining to the being of a Diclonius, or the nature of one, as vague and trite as such a term is, pose similar requirements of the respondent. Answers to 2), 3) or 4) will be somewhat enthymematic, insofar as they will typically suppress the respondent's beliefs about dispositions, causes and the sufficient conditions for humanity respectively — beliefs their answers assume to be true. My claim that Diclonii are not naturally psychopathic must rest upon my primitive understanding of the sufficient conditions for Dicloniushood, to coin a term. Again, I fathom that these three questions are "loaded" to the extent that an adequete discussion of them would cover topics larger in scope than a single anime.
If "worse" is a term to be explicated by reference to your standards and attitudes, then there need not be any argument on the matter strictly speaking, provided all others are informed of your preferences. If you wish to imply something stronger than this, namely that the evaluative status of Elfen Lied is something objective and hence true independently of any person's attitudes of it, such that no doubt of such status can be reasonably held by those sufficiently informed, then I beg to differ. I must note, of course, that I personally hold Elfen Lied in very high regard. |
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