Forum - View topicREVIEW: Umineko WHEN THEY CRY Episode 1: Legend of the Golden Witch GN 2
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Tanteikingdomkey
 Posts: 2346 |
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not quite they actually do a great job of defining magic in the later episodes, spoiler[there is a strong non what you would call magic explanation for what is going on] Also the point is not if it exist period but if it is done via magic |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
As I said before, I'm basing this off the Anime which did not include the caveat of whether it was done by magic or not. In the Anime, Battler's position was that magic did not exist, period. Yet there he was arguing with a real-life witch. I know it wouldn't be profitable but they should remake the Anime, it really screwed things up. |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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(meta discussion)spoiler[The nature of "meta" is commentary on what's going on in the games. Just because a commentator on a director's track on a DVD claims they can use magic doesn't mean they actually can, no matter how many cool sound effects they might try to use to sway your mind.] |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
But the person talking to Beatrice is still Battler. He still has all the same memories and experiences and the same personality as the Battler who is actually 'down there' on the island. Your analogy with the DVD track is erroneous. |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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No, it's not. Battler is simply another commentator. Or, if this is easier to understand, it's like watching two people argue over a story. Let's say Beatrice directed and starred in a movie about real events. In her movie, she claims she summoned a demon from hell with her magic and it ate Battler's family. The movie itself shows this happening. This doesn't mean Battler's family was actually eaten by a demon in real life. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Battler is not "just" a commentator, he is also the same person as who is on the island. He knew those people personally.
And besides, you are missing the point despite my having repeatedly explained it; in the Anime Battler was insisting to Beatrice that magic did not exist at all, yet here he was talking to a real witch in a strange dimension. The inherent contradiction between his situation and his stated belief is what is really at fault. You insist on continuing to use the movie analogy but it isn't valid. |
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maximilianjenus
Posts: 2866 |
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but then again, this is a manga topic , talking about battler does not believe in magic, it's either in the context of the manga or in the context of the whole franchise; if you mean that the anime makes battler contradicted you might be right as a novel/manga reader it is difficult for me to say otherwise.
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Etrien
 Posts: 525 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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Great review, Rebecca!
 I look forward to seeing how your opinion on the series develops as future Episodes are released. Annnnd, I'd also recommend you probably just forgo reading the subsequent discussion threads. People really kind of suck when it comes to spoilers, and this is a series where such a thing really matters. 
On that note...
It's both warranted and accurate, at least for EP1, which this is a review of. (Spoiler intended only for those already highly familiar with Umineko) spoiler[Christie and her works are even referenced in-story later on, alongside a handful other influential mysteries. Not to even mention things like Knox and Van Dine, which we're all thoroughly aware of.  ]
I think it's probably tough for a lot of fans to remember what Umineko is like without all the extra information and insight gained later on. The beginning really is painfully deceptive on what it becomes - not just thematically, but in quality as well. Umineko entirely eclipses Higurashi in my eyes, but it didn't even begin to surpass it until after EP5, which is not only far into the series, but beyond the scope of the anime entirely. I think that for the average observer, Umineko is something that gets worse before it gets better. But those parts which felt worse the first time take on an entirely new and meaningful life when revisited with future information, elevating the entire work.
That's a justified and logical argument, I'd say. But, it doesn't actually make it right. In your defense, I'd say that's definitely the interpretation the author intended, or at least expected, the average reader to first arrive at. But, if the anime - terrible as it was - had animated the entire series, rather than stopping halfway, I'm sure even that would have been been thorough enough that you'd understand the seemingly illogical arguments you're contending with. But, would've could've. It'd be great if Umineko could have a better anime re-adaptation, but I don't think it ever will. At least the manga will cover the whole story.
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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Once again BATTLER IS NOT DISPROVING ALL MAGIC, it is impossible to do. The horrible directing and confused versions of the characters in the anime screw this distinction up. Though when you fail to get the personalities of the charcters correctly I doubt you can even realize that this distinction happens, especially since this argument comes to a head at the beginning of episode 5 which is outside of the anime. though honestly I really doubt if the director actually read the novels/manga before working on umineko |
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
 Posts: 3820 Location: Louisville, KY |
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I just want to point out one thing there are three characters from another r7 franchise that are in this one have overshadowing control of this said game. Not even Beatrice, Battler or any one else on the island can do nothing about it. spoiler[As far as the game aspect goes think back to higurashi when rika kept winding up in different fragments/worlds with different outcomes. Rika had to use hanyuu over a course of 100 plus years to finally break away from fate. Rika finally beat takano at her own game by playing all of her pieces right.] Umineko is stuck in the same light expect for one thing. Who is Beatrice really?? Does she really exist at this point in time or has she ever existed at all??? The mystery can not be solved with out answering these questions. |
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Aeriven
 Posts: 55 Location: Alabama |
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Excellent review, I'm very much looking forward to reading the manga version of this story myself, seeing as the anime disappointed me in so many ways...
Let me sum up what Battler's doing a little better here. I am coming into this as a fan of the source material before the anime, so some of this might not have been clear in the anime, but it was in the sound novels: He's not insisting that magic doesn't exist at all, he's insisting that there's a possibility that his family was murdered the "old-fashioned way" rather than magic. spoiler[I thought the whole "after party" scene with Battler and his cousins made that clear. The cousins are quick to say, "Yep, was a witch," Battler wants to know why they stopped thinking and are so quick to say a witch did it, Beatrice shows up to make him prove to her that the murders were possible without magic, thus starting the whole "meta world" business.] Battler's original intent may have been to prove that magic doesn't exist, but like Tanteikingdomkey said, that would be impossible. Episode 2 (Turn) establishes that spoiler[it would, in fact, be a Devil's Proof.] |
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destructivesanctions
Posts: 6 |
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I'm aware that Christie heavily popularized the traditional murder mystery setting that Umineko uses. What I said is a bit unfair is saying that Umineko relies too much on it. All it does is use traditional mystery set-ups and plot devices, be them Christie's or not, and even during Episode 1 it was obvious it was setting those up to subvert and twist them with the whole witch thing. Saying something relies on something else makes it sound like it's just using those plot devices straight, which this most certainly is not. Even a lot of the basic story aspects are completely original so yeah.
I agree with your first and last statements, but not the middle one. I loved every Episode of Umineko and felt they just got better and better. Episode 2 was better than Episode 1, Episode 3 was better than Episode 2, etc.
It's true that the anime totally screws up explaining a lot of things and the way DEEN animated stuff gives off some wrong impressions, but Battler's argument against magic is there in the original VN as well. I'll leave this bit out of spoilers because it happened in Episode 1 of the VN, but there it's established that if Battler can prove the murders didn't occur via magic, then Beatrice can't exist. Beatrice acknowledges that her existence is like that, and if she can be disproven then people won't believe and she won't exist. It goes MUCH deeper than that, and in Episode 3 they even address how Battler can argue that magic doesn't exist when arguing against witches and the like, but yeah. The problem with the anime wasn't that they had Battler say magic didn't exist, it's that they didn't set-up how he can say that in the face of magic. There is a lot more that can be said on that subject, but it's getting into spoilers and you should probably just read the VNs man. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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The manga is actually a faithful adaptation that tries to do things to please fans and add to the experince of umineko without screwing over the important stuff. and it for the most part works well. I would say the PS3 version (or patched PC version) is best with the original VNs edging out the manga with the anime light years behind all of the other versions.
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casualfan
Posts: 333 |
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Is there a reason why Battler insists that the killing was not done with magic? The anime didn't really mention it. Because regardless of magic usage, Battler would still have to catch and bring the killer to justice (as in death by torture).
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Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 2611 Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City |
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Welcome to the forum! I'm glad my review inspired you to join, even if you didn't always like what I said.
As you may have guessed, I haven't played the VNs or seen the anime, so I'm essentially going into this series-blind. I have taught a couple of courses on mystery fiction, though, which is likely why Christie figures so heavily into my reading of Umineko. You're right that she wasn't the first to do the "isolated mystery" story, but And Then There Were None (originally published under a variety of politically incorrect titles) is the one that seems to live on in public imagination, so that's why I specifically used that title as a comparison point, rather than, say, something by Anna Katherine Green or one of Selma Lagerlof's awesomely scary ghost story/mystery hybrids. (Plus I really did see a lot of similarities...) I'm sure as things go on my opinions will alter accordingly...so just wait for my next review when volume 3 comes out this summer and you can track my growth as an Umineko reader.
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