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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 4884
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:58 am Reply with quote
Rebellion ended on a massive cliff hanger. It is not anywhere close to being a conclusion. If Sauron won at the end of the Lord of the Rings, and Gandalf and the Hobbits were imprisoned in Mordor, we all would be waiting for the next installment where things turn around. At the end of the movie, spoiler[ Homura is sinking into madness, her world is splitting at the seams, and our heroes have been brainwashed to forget their past, and to relive their lives when they were still in school. All agency forcibly removed.] The movie ended on a cliffhanger.

The first act and second act of Rebellion was great. In fact the second act showed the strength of Homura. It was a rising cresendo for Homura. So when the third act ends, it is a major slap in the face to everything that happened in the second act.

I have never seen Homura as some weak character, who would crush her friends and take away their freedom and agency.
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Villain-chan



Joined: 18 May 2020
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:50 am Reply with quote
For anyone who didn't like the ending of Rebellion, please click the spoiler as this will clear up why that ending happened and may like me, change how u feel about the movie.

spoiler[When i first saw Rebellion, and saw the ending i was mad, thought the movie was awful and betrayed Homura's character. However, I went looking online for information on why she did that at the end. I came across posts and a video online in two dif places and upon reading them and watching the video, my perspective matched theirs and I loved the movie. The answer of why Homura did what she did is due to Madoka and Homura's wish. Basically, Homura's wish consisted of two parts, to meet Madoka again and redo their meeting, that part came true but the latter part, to be strong enough to protect Madoka never ever came true, and still hasn't to this day imo. Now as ya'll know, she accepted Madoka's wish, however, the 2nd part of what made her reject Madoka's wish and "rebel" against it, was becus of something Madoka herself said to Homura while her memories were altered. This was said right b4 Homura undid her twintails and went back to being Coolmura as many call her.

What Madoka said in that scene (I believe it was a field of flowers) to Homura made her realize that she was wrong, that she failed to protect Madoka and she further believed she failed Madoka becus Madoka had said something that indicated she didn't want to make the wish she made. This is the entire reason why Homura did what she did, the ENTIRE REASON for that seemingly out of no where plot twist. Yes that was foreshadowing and easily missed. Homura isn't weak, she's still trying, by herself, to protect Madoka. Someone might point out then what about the line "It appears someday even u'll become my enemy" T that i say, to which part of Kaname Madoka was she referring too? The normal Madoka whose not a magical girl? or to the Law of Cycles whom was split off from Madoka but still trying to connect back to her and become one? Yes Madoka was split in two in that moment, she even warned Homura it was happening.

And yes, Homura was misguided in doing what she did, becus it isn't fair to do that when Madoka didn't have her memories of the wish, but at the same time, those were still Madoka's words and u know Homura clings to Madoka and her words.]
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everydaygamer



Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 603
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:18 am Reply with quote
I always felt that the ending of the original series was as perfect as it could have been, striking just the right balance of tragic and hopeful. The problem with Rebellion is that it spoils all that.

I don't dislike Rebellion and I don't even dislike the direction it took towards the end but it basically ends on a massive cliffhanger and without any proper resolution, it's hard to look back on it fondly.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 4884
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:43 am Reply with quote
We all agree to disagree about Homura.

But let's expand on what Homura did. Let's say a bunch of Americans were kidnapped, and brainwashed into forgetting everything about their lives and memories, but only leaving their earliest memories until highschool. That is what Homura did. If this happened in real life everyone would be aghast and demanding those responsible go to jail. If this was done to your significant other or spouse, and they forgot about you, would you consider this as a suitable conclusion to their story.

Right now our Magical Girls are the Stepford Wives of Pleasantville. Is this really the ending for the main plotline that you want? Let's not forget also, that Sayaka did not go into dreamville willingly.

As the ending shown, Homura's world is unstable, and Homura is mad/unstable, whatever euphemism you want to use. The only good thing about the third and final act of the movie Rebellion is that the Incubators are getting their just desserts.
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 804
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:18 pm Reply with quote
My only gripe with Rebellion is that it ended on a cliffhanger. I felt that the "dramatic left field turn" was shocking, but I also felt that it fit into the series lore perfectly. spoiler[The concept of karmic balance was a major and ever-present theme in the TV series, but it also happens to end in a rather un-balanced fashion. Madoka becomes Madokami. Well, when you have balance and you have a god one expects there to be a devil as well. And that's Homucifer.]

I would certainly love to see a direct sequel to Rebellion with Urobuchi and Sinbo at the helm.
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Villain-chan



Joined: 18 May 2020
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:13 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
We all agree to disagree about Homura.

But let's expand on what Homura did. Let's say a bunch of Americans were kidnapped, and brainwashed into forgetting everything about their lives and memories, but only leaving their earliest memories until highschool. That is what Homura did. If this happened in real life everyone would be aghast and demanding those responsible go to jail. If this was done to your significant other or spouse, and they forgot about you, would you consider this as a suitable conclusion to their story.

Right now our Magical Girls are the Stepford Wives of Pleasantville. Is this really the ending for the main plotline that you want? Let's not forget also, that Sayaka did not go into dreamville willingly.

As the ending shown, Homura's world is unstable, and Homura is mad/unstable, whatever euphemism you want to use. The only good thing about the third and final act of the movie Rebellion is that the Incubators are getting their just desserts.
I'm not saying she did right with what i said. Only that Rebellion doesn't betray her character, which is a BIG reason (out of a few) that people dislike the movie. Let's also not forget that Homura spoiler[was becoming a Witch in the movie and evolved into something else entirely. A literal fusion of the two I believe. Who knows if that warped her in ways we dunno,] we NEED a sequel to the movie to answer this. As for ur comparison, haven't seen it but least Homura included Madoka's friends, she could've easily have killed em. She still has her humanity, but as to how much is sadly anyone's guess. Further more what she did, while not right, least she went about the happy peaceful solution vs. a dark messed up ending for everyone. Also, spoiler[I don't recall seeing her powers/world being unstable] in the movie, can u tell me what said it was? If it was spoiler[Madoka almost remembering that doesn't count, her powers can't be entirely contained to begin with and I'd say more but spoilers for Wraith Arc manga.]
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:29 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
We all agree to disagree about Homura.

But let's expand on what Homura did. Let's say a bunch of Americans were kidnapped, and brainwashed into forgetting everything about their lives and memories, but only leaving their earliest memories until highschool. That is what Homura did. If this happened in real life everyone would be aghast and demanding those responsible go to jail. If this was done to your significant other or spouse, and they forgot about you, would you consider this as a suitable conclusion to their story.

I love Homura as much as the next Madoka fan but even in the original series, she comes across as very obsessive and controlling of Madoka. She's not trying to stop Madoka from making a contract for the good of the planet but because she wants Madoka all to herself and can't bear to be apart from her. But the show was told from Madoka's perspective who idolized her from the start and Madoka's idolization is imprinted onto the audience which clashes with the audience's view of Homura as this idealized cool and perfect character. It's the same thing with Mami where in some of the alternate timelines Mami is often portrayed as spoiler[very unstable and and not that trustworthy of a character] but Madoka idolized Mami in the original series and thus Mami is seen by the audience as this cool and reliable senpai type of character. The whole point of it is that Homura is not the perfect person Madoka made her out to be and that spoiler[Homura gave into the darkness instead of fighting against her darker impulses. Homura's arc in Rebellion is basically every dark magical girl arc in anime turned up to 11.] I agree with Villain-chan that this doesn't make Homura's actions right but it doesn't betray her character either, but Madoka fans need a more nuanced way to look at Homura than either this all or nothing approach where either it's "Homura did nothing wrong uwu" or now Homura has to be the worst because she's not as perfect because she's not as perfect as Madoka thought she was.
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Villain-chan



Joined: 18 May 2020
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:12 pm Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
TarsTarkas wrote:
We all agree to disagree about Homura.

But let's expand on what Homura did. Let's say a bunch of Americans were kidnapped, and brainwashed into forgetting everything about their lives and memories, but only leaving their earliest memories until highschool. That is what Homura did. If this happened in real life everyone would be aghast and demanding those responsible go to jail. If this was done to your significant other or spouse, and they forgot about you, would you consider this as a suitable conclusion to their story.

I love Homura as much as the next Madoka fan but even in the original series, she comes across as very obsessive and controlling of Madoka. She's not trying to stop Madoka from making a contract for the good of the planet but because she wants Madoka all to herself and can't bear to be apart from her. But the show was told from Madoka's perspective who idolized her from the start and Madoka's idolization is imprinted onto the audience which clashes with the audience's view of Homura as this idealized cool and perfect character. It's the same thing with Mami where in some of the alternate timelines Mami is often portrayed as spoiler[very unstable and and not that trustworthy of a character] but Madoka idolized Mami in the original series and thus Mami is seen by the audience as this cool and reliable senpai type of character. The whole point of it is that Homura is not the perfect person Madoka made her out to be and that spoiler[Homura gave into the darkness instead of fighting against her darker impulses. Homura's arc in Rebellion is basically every dark magical girl arc in anime turned up to 11.] I agree with Villain-chan that this doesn't make Homura's actions right but it doesn't betray her character either, but Madoka fans need a more nuanced way to look at Homura than either this all or nothing approach where either it's "Homura did nothing wrong uwu" or now Homura has to be the worst because she's not as perfect because she's not as perfect as Madoka thought she was.
I agree with everything u said Cardcaptor Takato besides one point; having just finished rewatching the movie, the part I disagree with is her giving into darkness. spoiler[She made it clear what it actually was, which was, love. Love CAN be dark though, or make people do dark things for the ones they love, but I don't agree she gave into darkness. She just gave into her love for Madoka.]
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:56 pm Reply with quote
A lot of theories and subjective views here on Homura. Ultimately, I'm just going to take a page from Urobuchi's perspective:

Madoka's and Homura's character and motivations clash. Ultimately, their wishes contradict each other. That moment Homura says, "you might become my enemy someday", it doesn't matter which "Madoka" she's talking to.

I, too, loved Rebellion. Same masterful writing as the series, but in a different direction. Like many of you, I don't mind that the ending was a cliffhanger to the plot. The actual story of the film, its central themes and characterization, concluded with the cliffhanger revelation. But I also think it necessitates a continuation. Urobuchi said he was done with Madoka, but with its current frozen state (Magia Record doesn't really count...), I don't think I'd be surprised if he hopped back on at some point. No one continued his story since Rebellion, so he'd still have full control over its direction.
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Psycho 101
Oscar the Grouch
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Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:19 pm Reply with quote
I removed your last post Villain-chan. People can have different opinions than your own. Just because you feel a certain way does not automatically make it "fact" or the truth. You have gone on with this topic enough at this point . You're just soapboxing at this point, and more importantly being very rude to other users who's opinions differ from your own. You even started posting in here all upset insulting ANN, when the part you had a problem with came directly from Funimation. I suggest you agree to disagree at this point.
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#HayamiLover



Joined: 22 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:15 pm Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
Thespacemaster wrote:

I think a lot of issues with it that a lot of people have is that without 'spoiling'. The dramatic left field shenanigan that happened close to the end of the movie as well as the fact it was hinted a bit that their is more to develop for the story but we never got a follow up until now. So a lot of people feel they should continue it until it feels 100% Resolved regardless to what happens. (Although you could argue that it still feels conclusive, it just depends how you interpret it).

If i recall they already announced additional projects that were upcoming even after the first part of the spin off ended. we just never got a clarification what they are, So im curios as to what exactly will be. A lot of people seem to expect or want a continuation in some form after the events of rebellion, which while i would welcome, i would try to keep my expectations a bit low for now as nothing is certain yet.
If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, I feel the opposite of most fans that the movie's dramatic left field turn makes the movie more interesting than if they just went a more safe and predictable route. And I've always taken it that like how the Madoka TV series "deconstructs" the magical girl genre, Rebellion is a "deconstruction" of the characters in Madoka, particularly with Homura. But this seems to happen with a lot of iconic franchises like Star Wars The Last Jedi and Evangelion 3.0 where when a follow up movie doesn't match the fan theories or the expectations fans have for the characters even if the movie otherwise is actually well produced and ambitious with what it's setting out to do with the characters. I wouldn't say no to more Madoka but I wouldn't want something like we had with TROS in Star Wars where a continuation is made only to fix the perceived "problems" fans had with Rebellion to reset the story to make it more "safe" and straightforward to please the fanbase. Though I am actually enjoying the current spin off show which you could argue is Madoka playing it safe, any continuation of the main story that brings back Gen Urobuchi should be because he has something interesting and new to say and not just to satisfy the fanbase by "fixing" the problems with Rebellion.


Well, that's just my personal opinion, but the more the franchise gets mainstream, the less I continue to feel the spirit of that old, original Madoka. It reminds me of the hype around the new seasons of ReZero. Again, subjectively, it's just that it is more and more beginning to be perceived as a purely commercial project, and not original creative content.
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