Forum - View topicHaibane Renmei (TV).
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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If you want to label it as one of the seven deadly sins it would Sloth or more specifically a form of apathy at trying to deal with the passing, or in Haibane's case a rebirth, of a friend. She was just stuck in rut feeling sorry for herself and shuting herself off when she should have been trying to move on after Kuu left. It's a common psychological tactic that a lot of people use in dealing with grief. Some people accept it right away as a natural part of life and move on others walk her path and fall into depression, everyone has their own way.
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Kelly
Posts: 868 Location: New York City |
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Much in the series is left to conjecture. I think it's generally agreed that the Haibane's dreams while in the cocoon are reflections of how they died. Kana almost definitely drowned, Nemu probably died of a sleeping disorder (I don't buy that she took sleeping pills, as she shows no sign of being sinbound), and we find out how Reki died right before the series ends. Since the only other sinbound Haibane, Reki, was a suicide, many viewers believe Rakka was too - and that would qualify her as sinbound. Since her dream was of falling, there's alot of speculation that she was a jumper. But ultimately, Reki's death is the only one we definitely learn about for certain.
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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The posters in this thread so far seem to agree that the black wings are an expression of "sin", specifically, and this last post certainly implies a belief that only the black-winged haibane are suicides. However, it is not so. It has been specifically been said, by Yoshitoshi ABe himself, on several occasions, that all the haibane are suicides. I believe the "sin" approach is a result of a misconstrued attempt to view the haibane in the context of Western (Catholic) concepts of sin and redemption. The black wings do not appear to be related to a moral sin, but rather to be an indication that the haibane in question is (unconsciously) deeply mired in the emotions left over from the previous life. There is no "sin" involved, except for a sin against the self. All of the haibane, even the children, chose to commit suicide, and were reborn inside the Wall. Every haibane's dream, for which they are named, is an expression of the way that haibane chose to end the previous life -- and the were all suicides. This is a subject that has already been discussed in depth in these previous threads (among others):
There are more threads on the subject, since Haibane Renmei is a perennial favourite of many of the regulars here -- but I invite you to start out by reading the threads I've referenced here. - abunai |
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opaquescum
Posts: 235 |
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I also felt that Rakka was most likely a suicide. The imagry, and the message about forgiveness seemed pretty implied atleast to me. Afterall Rakka shows no signs of being sin bound till after Kuu has gone. After she leaves she begins to turn in on herself. Rakka feals bad about fealing good. She says that many times in the series about fealing she did not deserve to feal happy.
So I took it as the view that she actually was not sinbound when she came to the walled city, but only became sinbound after she stopped accepting the forgiveness. She started to find her way out of being sinbound when she accepted the crows forgiveness most likely a loved one probabally a parent. After that she started to branch out, and connect with others, and even feal responsible for others. Thinking of others rather then herself. I myself found reki to be more curious. After all did she arrive sinbound, because she had nobody to forgive her, or did she become sinbound the night of her birth. I found that most interesting. You know she woke up before her wings came out, and yet she probabally did not even go looking for help. In the end she is only freed from being sinbound be calling out for help. Anyway I feal I have to watch the series a few more times myself. I have only watched it through just a couple times. Asfor the other characters I will admit it I could care less about them. They just never seemed to come alive to me. Yeah for a moment or two they seem to liven up, and develope a personality. Sadly those moments are too short and far between. I found myself actually more readily forming emotional attachments to the interpreter then the Haibane other then Rakka, and Reki. I suppose its to be expected since Rakka, and Reki are really the main characters, and the interpreter is critical to understanding the situation. Ah such a brave new world with such shallow people in it. Anyway I did not pay too much attention to the other characters. They were just so uninspired. The series is still great for the main story. |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Don't take this the wrong way, but it's not a question of your "feeling". The story of Haibane Renmei is predicated on the haibane being suicides, all of them. We know this for certain, because it has been unequivocally stated by the creator, Yoshitoshi ABe. Superman is from Krypton. Batman lives in Gotham. Hulk SMASH! ... and haibane are suicides. Basic story premises. - abunai This was my 1939th post... I suddenly feel an obscure urge to invade Poland. |
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cyrax777
 Posts: 1825 Location: the desert |
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wasnt that at Anime Expo? I seem to remeber that at his panel a couple of years ago. |
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Mushiko
 Posts: 96 Location: Finland |
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Thanks for the links, abunai. I got a lot of food for thought (although I spent way too much time reading them). And some puzzles to solve, too:
He has stated that? Hmm, of course that would be the predominant interpretation then. However, to me it seems a bit too simplistic, and raises some new problems. The first that comes to mind are the haibane children's dreams. I understand the possibility that the haibane may well be born from the cocoons having a different age than their age was when they died. However, when the haibane children tell of their cocoon dreams, they all state some future dream profession, ordinary things that children tend to dream about. I don't see how this would relate to suicide - unless they had been driven to it by a failure in the aforementioned professional fields. 
I would really like to know the source of this statement by ABe, especially since in the Wikipedia article it is stated that ABe actually disgrees with this interpretation. (I wish they'd cite some sources, even a Japanese interview or something, since now that piece of information is hardly reliable.  ) Could it be that ABe has changed or streamlined his interpretation over time? I may be paranoid or just clinging to my old insights, but especially if this statement was made at an American con(?), he might have intentionally simplified his answer to suit the foreign audience (and to get finally rid of the perennial question about haibane and suicide). Considering the much stricter attitude towards suicide in the West, he may have even wanted to emphasise this "controversial" point in HR ("no, suicides don't get eternal agony in hell").
Sorry for making such rambling speculations without any solid basis. I'm just starving for sources here... I've always thought haibane to be a sort of liminal stage for children that died "before their time" (through accidents, getting killed, suicide - the reason doesn't really matter), before they move on beyond (heaven, rebirth, becoming angels or joining some larger spiritual entity, that doesn't really matter, either). There isn't really anything indicating suicide about any of the others except Reki (and perhaps Rakka) - considering the kind of emotional isolation and depression that drives people to suicide, Reki's problems as haibane should be the norm rather than an exception. Another point would be the cocoon dreams. If a haibane cannot remember all of the dream, it seems to indicate that there is something regretful, unresolved or "sinful" about her death that continues to mar her haibane life until it is recalled, accepted and resolved. In Reki's case, this not remembered, unresolved part is clearly the train, i.e. that she died by suicide. If the others are suicides, as well, for them the suicide must have been something resolving and resolved, leaving no regrets to the afterlife. Having a majority like that seems a bit odd (unless they were samurai ).
As for Rakka, the regretful, unresolved part was that somebody actually tried to help her (symbolised by the raven) when she was falling to her death, but she had ignored this kindness, although it may even have cost the helper's life. (I'm not sure if Rakka committed suicide, it seems more like she sort of took the opportunity to die, not trying to help herself and ignoring the help that was offered.) I guess this is my answer to the original question. Sorry for making such a long-winded post!
Not Finland? You'll be ruined in a few posts... |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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The answer is in the riddle the Communicator asked Rakka
"To recognise one's sin is to have no sin. So are you a sinner?" Rakka answered; "But if I believe have no sin I become a sinner." Communicator; "This is the cycle of sin. Think about it. To find the answer is to find redemption." Reki was asked the same riddle. spoiler[Theirs' was the sin of refusal.] |
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Anthony P
Posts: 227 Location: Phoenix, Arizona, US |
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It could be that they didn't recall their cocoon dreams in full, or they had simply misinterpreted them.
You know, this may very well be possible. I also remember Abe having said that when he wrote Haibane, he "let the story flow from his subconscious", not restricting it to any specific parameters. It could be that Abe intended for Haibane to be completely subjective, but that he grew tired of people asking for a concrete, parsimonious explanation, so he caved and gave them one.
It does seem fairly obvious to me that Rakka was a suicide as well. Recall that when she began to remember certain things when she was at the bottom of the well, she remembered a feeling of "it would be better if I didn't exist". And soon after Rakka recalls the rest of her cocoon dream, it concludes with her falling into a well. That sequence in the series pretty strongly suggests that she commits suicide by jumping down the well. As for Reki's plight being more indicative of suicide, I'd say that isn't necessarily so. It could very well be that all of the Haibanes were suicides, but some are able to put it behind them with more ease than others, as has previously been stated. |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I don't really think of it as simplistic. Simple and direct, yes, but hardly simplistic.
I'll see if I can find the source. It's been a while, and my memory is vague -- but it was a completely unequivocal statement by ABe. As for Wikipedia as a source... let me see how I can best put this... ah yes: Wikipedia has (almost) no credibility as a source. It's biased, clumsy and unreliable. Sure, it's fun to read, and OK for simple lookups -- but for anything even the slightest bit controversial or interpretative, it's useless.
This is not a hypothesis that I consider impossible. But, absent more information, it must remain a hypothesis. Note that on the Talk page for the Wikipedia article it offers as its "source" for ABe's supposed disavowal (of the haibanes as suicides) nothing but hearsay -- and second-hand hearsay at that.
Not all the West is Roman Catholic or Brimstone-and-Hellfire Evangelist. Some of us don't consider suicide a sin. Some of us don't even believe in Hell.
Aren't we all?
Hmm. This echoes the Christian concept of "limbo" (or, in Dantean terms, the outermost circle of Hell) -- and I'm sorry to say this, but I find it a bit superficial. Any deeper thought on the matter will make it evident that there is no particular reason to consider it "dying before time" for a child to die, as opposed to an adult. Any death is premature and unfortunate.
That argument rests on a lot of unwarranted assumptions. The haibane rebirth may be a "wiping clean" of negative emotions -- and only those individuals who somehow manage to hang on to their negative emotions are caught up in the "black wing" phenomenon. Or the "black wing" haibane may have failed to undergo whatever cathartic effect it is that precedes their rebirth, and leaves them with no memories except a gentle dream carefully couched in symbolism. Notice that the only two "black wings" we know of, Reki and Rakka, both have dreams that are fragmentary and incomprehensible. The rest of them appear to have simple and almost relaxed dreams.
There are a lot of types of suicides. The melodramatic ones, the ones that repeatedly wind up alive in hospital with wrists slashed across, not down, the arm -- they are the emotional ones. The really "effective" suicides, the ones that get the job done the first time, tend to be far more resolved and calm about the entire thing. But even if all the haibane were the emotional kind, there is clearly some process that transpires between their death and their rebirth -- some form of catharsis that cleanses them of their emotional baggage. With a few notable exceptions, that is.
I'm still unresolved as to how to interpret the raven -- but I agree that it does seem to support your interpretation.
Nahh. Finns fight for keeps. You pick a fight with them, and you'll regret it. The Poles fight for honour -- and there's nobody quite so easy to beat as an honourable opponent. By comparison with the Finns, Poles are pushovers. Having said that... Jan Sobieski was a great man. But that was a long time ago. - abunai |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Another aspect I noticed was that Reki was the only new feather who bore blackened wings when they sprouted. Rakka's became blackened later. No other haibane is shown to have exhibited this, or indeed to have gone through the process of reconciliation and absolution. I speculate that reconciliation can occur whilst within the cocoon and if during the dream one's redemption is attained then their life as a haibane is more pleasant up to their eventual "day of flight". Also it was never explained why non haibane also lived within the wall, or how they got there. Were they haibane that failed to be be absolved of their sin? I know the Communicator hinted that failed haibane lose their wings and will die there, but this thought seemed to frighten Reki even though she was quite happy to spend the rest of her "new life?" that way. We never found out what happened to Reki's mentor Kutamore [sic] Did she make her "day of flight", or did she just die?
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Kelly
Posts: 868 Location: New York City |
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Heh. Having ancestors from Alavus and Esse, that made my day . Thanks for sticking up for us, Abunai! Sissu forever! 
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Mushiko
Posts: 96 Location: Finland |
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Thanks for the riddle, Mohawk. I had actually managed to forget it - should really watch the series again some time.
I think it was implied that Kuramori had her "day of flight". Reki just got depressed because she was not ready to lose her yet, pretty much the same way Rakka did after Kuu left. I guess this analogy is significant, as well...
The former is not likely, since then they would fall into the same lot as Rakka and Reki. However, misinterpretation would work - after all, they are children now.
Ok, I managed to miss the discussion page. It really seems pretty vague. Then again, I haven't seen your sources, either. (Don't worry, I've read just enough source criticism to take any interpretative bits in the Wiki with a moderately-sized salt cellar. Though I'd say the problem is similar with any encyclopedias or other works that are not transparent with the sources or the author of a particular piece. I use it for factual information (verifiable, if need be), and there are plenty of interesting bits there to entertain me for a long time - like just now on Jan Sobieski.  )
Of course not. I'm certainly not Catholic and hardly even Christian. I was not talking about reality but the image that "outsiders" have. I'd say that at least the USA has a pretty "emphasizing the Christian values" image in the eyes of the rest of the world nowadays, what with Bush's crusading and intelligent design and so forth. It certainly is not the whole truth or anything, but that's the image you get if you just browse the daily news.
True, there should be a reason behid this, unless the haibane world is just modelled after this kind of mythologies (I know limbo, and that at least in Japanese Buddhism stillborn/miscarried children go to the Buddhist hell, but are there any other such afterlife destiations specifically for children?). The question is, why then are all the haibane born as children of different ages? All the few adult haibane seem to have just stayed haibane long enough to grow up. Actually, this would be my suggestion for a reason: if the haibane died in childhood, they had no chance to grow up. The time spent as haibane would be meant for them to experience life some more and to mature before they move on. It is notable that all the haibane seem to have some sort of "immature characteristic" that they are supposed to grow out of before they can leave the haibane life. For example, in the flashbacks we see that Nemu used to be rather cross and antagonistic towards Reki at first. At the time of the anime, however, her character has mellowed and matured and it is implied that she is now staying mainly because of Reki. (I know this raises the problem of how you define maturity and its relation to age, but at least it would depend more on the character than age, considering Kuu - though we don't know how long she has already been a haibane.)
That is a good point. Hovever, Reki's dream still bugs me: the part that she cannot remember is clearly that she killed herself - she remembered the train only after she painted the scene on the wall. Why such a clear reference to the real events in her case, then? Was a re-enactment necessary to get her redeem herself and ask for help? Wasn't Reki's "sin" her lack of self-worth, the belief that she was not worthy of anyone's help or did not have the right to ask for help - the very feelings that led her to suicide?
More resolved, perhaps, but I'd say still profoundly depressed and hopeless, for the most part. You don't have to be "emotional" for that.
 Pushovers and push-arounds, looking at the way Poland has jumped around the map through history. (Apologies & condolences to any Poles around.) But have Danes actually fought for anything? I don't know if brawling with dear Swedes counts...
(Phew. These multiple quotes are a handful. I'm sure I'm missing some trick here...) |
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morsmaestro
 Posts: 172 Location: Sacramento |
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I definitely need to rewatch Haibane Renmei. This is truly art at it's best. Maybe I should look into Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World also. What I watched was a bootleg, which I've returned, so I'll need to go buy the real deal.
But by all means, continue; this is interesting. I'm sorry I can't offer much. Maybe Reki wasn't sinbound from the very beginning of her life as a Haibane. It did take a while for her to be found; maybe in that time she became sinbound. |
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Mushiko
Posts: 96 Location: Finland |
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Had she been found before she hatched, it is possible that she would not have become a blackwing from the beginning. However, she had died feeling completely alone and abandoned, and now she hatched and went through the pain of getting wings alone in the dark with no-one to support her - no wonder the negative feelings came back and she became "sinbound". Even as a haibane, Reki seems to have some unduly harsh experiences, which certainly don't help her to redeem herself. If we compare Reki and Rakka, both became depressed when someone close to them (Kuramori and Kuu, respectively) left the haibane life. Both wanted to find a way out and headed towards the wall. There, Rakka was actually able to remember her missing dream and find redemption - she even had Washi to help her on the way back. In contrast, Reki had a person who was willing to help her almost getting killed in the process, and was later punished by the Haibane Renmei. If her sin was not accepting help or feeling that she was unworthy of even asking help from anyone, that experience would certainly only strenghten those feelings.
Wow, I just learned a new Finnish place name.  I'd never heard of Esse, but now I know it is the Swedish name of Ähtävä (no wonder you use the Swedish one  ). Eläköön sisu, indeed.
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