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Saikano ending SPOILER!


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dormcat
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:52 am Reply with quote
To ShadowerV2:

1. spoiler[Those giant protrusions from the sky ARE part of Chise. She, as the title "ultimate weapon" implies, is basically a self-conscience Star Trek replicator (x1000000 times of course) coupled with latest sensory technology. She can produce weaponry or emit energy from seemingly nowhere - the entire Earth is her reservoir of raw matter and energy. She is capable to summon, absorb, and convert them whenever, wherever, and however she sees fit. Thus the "ultimate weapon." However, she gradually loses control over her functions, and any attack directed towards her would only result a bigger payback (it seems like she's programmed to do so). Ultimately this results the destruction of the Earth.]

2. It's like what TF said.

3. spoiler[Shuuji is the last surviving human being, taken by Chise (in the form of a spacecraft-like being) away from the dying Earth. The last scenes are telepathic dialogues between them; all images are illusions created by Chise directly through Shuuji's mind. It was highly debated whether or how long will Shuuji survive. However, even if Shuuji has to die eventually, Chise gave him one last good memory.]

And to Advent_Nebula: No. When, why, and how did Chise get trasformed were the biggest mysteries of SaiKano. The author kept them secret intentionally.

Darn it, recalling their story wets my eyes. Crying or Very sad
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abunai
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:01 am Reply with quote
All right, this is going to be one big spoiler text, I'm afraid. Bear with me...

spoiler[1. Yes, the end of the anime is where the story catches up to the "present". Shuji is telling the story from his viewpoint. At the beginning, and at the end, he is the last human being alive on Earth. Advent_Nebula said it was only the end of Japan, but that is not true. Chise specifically states that it's all over for the Earth.

2. The reason why it's all over is that Chise has "grown". Those huge things poking out of the clouds? They're part of her. She really is the ultimate weapon - a technology so powerful that using it cannot help but bring about the end of its makers. There's no way the Earth can survive her ultimate manifestation.

3. The entire sequence where Chise and Shuji consummate their love is a sort of virtual reality created by Chise. She admits to manipulating his perception of reality - in effect, shielding him from the truth, that he is the last human on a doomed planet.

Now, I had a long discussion via PM with dormcat (who always brings out my most analytical side), and the following is a paraphrase from one of the PMs I sent (I've lost the text of the original PM, alas). It is my answer to a number of questions raised by SaiKano's story.

Who is at war?

Well, one side of the war is obviously Japan. The other clearly includes Western powers (since they speak English in the anime and French in the manga). One could imagine a number of scenarios where Japan was allied with others in a war of two or more power blocs. However... I believe it's more straightforward than that. Japan is one side of the conflict, and the other side is the rest of the world. Read on for my reasoning...

What is the nature of Chise?

Well, we are told that Chise is an ordinary girl who has been transformed into "the ultimate weapon". Obviously, this implies some form of cyborg-like amalgamation of girl and weapon.

However, though the nature of the weaponry is obscure, it does show some characteristics that allow us to analyze it. Chief of these is that it seems to violate basic physical laws of conservation of mass and momentum. It also involves some form of ability to manifest energy in various forms. This energy might come from some form of matter conversion, but I'm tempted to regard it as integral with the violations of mass conservation.

In summary, Chise is capable of manifesting additional mass or energy. It seems likely that this mass/energy comes from "elsewhere" (perhaps a hole into another universe?), and that Chise can draw it into existence (or put it away) as she pleases.

Add to this some superficially useful abilities such as communicating with satellites, etc. These seem peripheral to the actual innovative technology, which is the matter/enegery manifestation ability.

Why is the war being fought?

Obviously, the ability to build such a weapon is a major technological breakthrough. Equally obviously, only Japan has it. It seems a short jump from this to conclude that the cause of the war is the development of the technology.

The war, in short, is a pre-emptive strike to prevent Japan from bringing its new technology into a state of readiness (imagine, had WWII not been ongoing, a similar war in the 1940s, over the incipient development of the nuclear bomb). Alas for Humanity, the effort comes too late.

Supporting this theory is the fact that Tokyo is the first to be struck and obliterated. Later, Sapporo is attacked. Why Sapporo? It seems out of the way. Yet, it makes sense if we assume that initial development of the technology was done in Tokyo, and the first strike was an attempt to cut it off at the root. The strike at Sapporo, then, represents an attempt to kill Chise - the prototype of the new weaponry - before she can become fully operational.

It becomes clear as the story progresses tht the enemy is suffering awesome losses. City after city annihilated by Chise, yet they keep fighting. I'd consider it likely that they believe themselves (quite rightly) to be fighting to save Humanity from a monster of its own creation - Chise.

Unfortunately, the continued warfare only causes Chise to grow and become ever more dangerous. Though, in fairness, it is questionable whether she would have been possible to control even if peace had been made.

At the end, the final enemy planes attack the now-gigantic Chise in a suicide run, failing miserably. At this point, there is no hope left - they're merely out for revenge for the murder of Humanity.

That's my take on the story. It really is the anti-war story to end all anti-war stories. Chise, the compassionate weapon, the bane of Humanity.]


- abunai

P.S. Ah, I see dormcat was online simultaneously, and posted before I did. "Star Trek replicator", hmm?
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:10 am Reply with quote
abunai wrote:
P.S. Ah, I see dormcat was online simultaneously, and posted before I did. "Star Trek replicator", hmm?

Haha. I was thinking, if the replicator/transporter technology needs something like Heisenberg compensator to counteract the uncertainty principle and allocate individual quantum signature in Star Trek universe, what if the developer of Chise spoiler[has created an artificial Maxwell's demon to decrease entropy by reorganizing scattered energy and matter into an orderly state as one sees fit (specifically, to make projectile weapon or direct energy weapon)? Apparently their success was short-lived, for the degree of chaos accumulated in Chise's body instead, both mentally and physically.

For which nation attacked Japan, well, I am certain that there are only two possible types of bomber raiding Sapporo: US Rockwell B-1B Lancer or Russian Tupolev Tu-160 "Blackjack," both supersonic bombers with VG wings. So they could be either American or Russian, but they could also team up with other nations, though.]


BTW, do you want a copy of your PM, abunai? I still have them.
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abunai
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:00 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
abunai wrote:
P.S. Ah, I see dormcat was online simultaneously, and posted before I did. "Star Trek replicator", hmm?

Haha. I was thinking, if the replicator/transporter technology needs something like Heisenberg compensator to counteract the uncertainty principle and allocate individual quantum signature in Star Trek universe, what if the developer of Chise spoiler[has created an artificial Maxwell's demon to decrease entropy by reorganizing scattered energy and matter into an orderly state as one sees fit (specifically, to make projectile weapon or direct energy weapon)? Apparently their success was short-lived, for the degree of chaos accumulated in Chise's body instead, both mentally and physically.]


Oh, indeed. I've always thought that it was a bit excessive (if highly symbolic) for spoiler[ammo to come tumbling out of Chise's body whenever she was stressed. Rockets rolling across the floor, thump-clankety-clankety-clank!

Anyway, whatever hypothetical explanation we come up with for Chise's powers (Star Trek style replicator/mass convertor as you suggest, or alternate-universe mass/energy extractor as I suggest), the fact remains that they can be described as seemingly violating the laws of conservation of mass. And by any definition, that's a very powerful (and weapons-capable) technology.

Any nation would feel threatened by the development of such weapons tech, and (as the story unfolds) they would be right to feel threatened.]


dormcat wrote:
spoiler[For which nation attacked Japan, well, I am certain that there are only two possible types of bomber raiding Sapporo: US Rockwell B-1B Lancer or Russian Tupolev Tu-160 "Blackjack," both supersonic bombers with VG wings. So they could be either American or Russian, but they could also team up with other nations, though.]


spoiler[I stand by my opinion that the cause of the war was Japan's development of ChiseTech - and consequently, that Japan was very likely all alone on one side of the conflict. The other side being the rest of the world, eager to prevent precisely that which they ultimately brought about: the end of the world. Period. No "...as we know it", just a big fat 終, "The End". ]

dormcat wrote:
BTW, do you want a copy of your PM, abunai? I still have them.

Oh, yes please, very much - I suspect I expressed my thoughts better in them than in this scattering of posts.

-abunai
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abunai
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:53 pm Reply with quote
Friend dormcat has been kind enough to send me a copy of the PM I wrote when SaiKano was fresh in my mind. Here's what I wrote (abbreviated to remove extraneous material) back then:

abunai wrote:
We do have a lot to talk about... Let's start with the French text fragments that are flashed during the OP.

(snippage)

Now, you asked another question:

dormcat wrote:
One thing I don't understand is why Shin Takahashi put French in manga (the troops attacking Hokkaido speak English in anime, but French in manga).


The short answer is that French and English both signal "technologically advanced foreign culture with a history of hostility towards Japan" to the Japanese, and that may well be enough answer in itself. However, I think this deserves a fairly complex answer, if you're up to it. What follows is my preliminary analysis of some of the details of the series, in a question-and-answer format.

(snippage)

spoiler[1. Who is fighting the war?

On the one side, obviously, Western military forces are deployed against Japan. No mention is made as to whether Japan is all alone, or has allies. For reasons which I will shortly make clear, I believe that this war is between Japan alone on the one side, and most of the rest of the world on the other.

It is clear that the war hasn't been going on long - but long enough for Tokyo to have been destroyed (in a nuclear strike?) My reason for making this assumption is that none of the characters behave as if they are in a fully mobilised society, at least in the beginning. The war is a recent and somewhat unreal thing to them, in Hokkaido, and only becomes "real" to them when the air raid hits Sapporo.

2. What is the cause of the war?

Hold on to your hat - I think Chise is the reason for the war. Or rather, I believe that Japan's possession of a ground-breaking new military technology (call it "ChiseTech") has caused the other technologically advanced nations to feel threatened, and to launch a pre-emptive strike at Japan. This is a militarily sound strategy - if you get intelligence that another nation is on the verge of developing weaponry that can render it overwhelmingly powerful, a quick pre-emptive strike to stop it before it goes into action makes sense.

I think this is why Tokyo was wiped out. Probably, it was the site of most of the advanced ChiseTech research, and was hit in an attempt to block the final development of the weaponry. Too late, of course. This also gives meaning to the early raid on Sapporo - if intelligence indicated the presence of Chise there, it would make sense to attempt a raid.

One datum which supports this is the fact that, no matter how many losses the enemy sustains, they keep going - even when we are told by Chise that their supply lines have been cut, and a normal response would be to negotiate a surrender.

Herein lies paradox: The more the enemy attacks, the more powerful Chise becomes, and the more imperative it becomes for them to stop her (and the less they have to lose, as she obliterates their cities). Look at the final enemy attack, in the final episode. That's desperation - the enemy is desperate.

Which brings us neatly to the last question:

3. What is Chise?

Chise is a weapon, of course - but she is of a completely different nature from other, earlier weapons. She isn't just a sort of glorified F-16 fighter with a brain.

She obviously contains advanced data-gathering capabilities, including the ability to patch into satellites, etc. But there's more to it than that - she displays almost supernatural awareness of events at a distance, repeatedly.

As a weapon, Chise demonstrates the ability to produce missiles, wings, and some sort of winglike energy structure from her body. On several occasions, we see missiles falling out of her. It is clear that there is no way these missiles can be stored within her (not enough room), nor can they have been produced from her body mass through some sort of nanotechnological wizardry. No, it is clear they must be manifesting through her body, from Elsewhere. But where, then, do they come from?

Look at the final episode. Those enormous spikey structures stretching down from the clouds are obviously part of Chise. She controls them. I suspect that they are part of the answer to this question, and my guess is this:

ChiseTech, whatever it is, involves the ability to extract energy and matter from elsewhere (either through a gateway from somewhere in this universe, or from some other dimension). Obviously, there is a quality of unstoppability to such technology, since there is no real limit to the amount of power that one can extract - hence the "ultimate weapon".

Like any real "ultimate weapon", its use guarantees only victory in the short term. In the long term, using it is equal to species extinction. Once the weapon goes online, it escalates in power until it obliterates everything. This is clearly the message of the anime - "war is folly, and total war with modern weapons is suicide".]


That's as far as I've gotten with my analysis until now - I only finished the last episode last night, of course, and I'll be thinking it over for some time. No doubt, further insights will present themselves.

(remainder snipped)


I hope you find this huge mass of self-quoted and spoiler-blocked material useful, and not annoying. If the latter, I apologise.

- abunai
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Iria51



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:01 pm Reply with quote
My head hurts Very Happy .
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abunai
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:05 pm Reply with quote
Iria51 wrote:
My head hurts Very Happy .

There, there.

-abunai
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Photon the idiot



Joined: 16 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:02 am Reply with quote
I haven't seen saikano but someone told me who is big into anime that it looked really depressing. He told me that spoiler[chise eventually dies. She is the main character of the show the cyborg. I dont really want to see a series where the main character dies,] that seems really depressing and too sad for me.
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ShadowerV2



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:40 am Reply with quote
spoiler[Not just her man. THE WHOLE WORLD goes too....]
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Sarki-Kun



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:27 am Reply with quote
ShadowerV2 wrote:
spoiler[Not just her man. THE WHOLE WORLD goes too....]


And it was human's fault. I'll admit, have read Saikano but NOT the whole thread...I'm not sure if someone wrote ALL the dialogues in there, xD
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Photon the idiot



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:36 pm Reply with quote
whats up with the spoiler and the whole thing of all those blanked spaces? is that the stuff about the show saikano that they censor so people dont spoil the show for other people?
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:23 pm Reply with quote
Photon the idiot wrote:
whats up with the spoiler and the whole thing of all those blanked spaces? is that the stuff about the show saikano that they censor so people don't spoil the show for other people?

Is this the first time for you to participate a forum discussion? The function of spoiler tag is to hide detailed storyline to those who have not seen the anime/manga/whatever. If you have seen it, or you want to know the details even if you haven't, just highlight the blackened lines to read the text.

Spoiler tags were added by the author of the post by their free will for being courteous to those who want to enjoy the show by themselves rather than being told by someone else. DO NOT misinterpret it as censorship.
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The Ramblin' Wreck



Joined: 07 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:44 pm Reply with quote
Ahh,

"Saikano" didn't watch "Dr. Strangelove"

Namely, "whats the point of an ultimate weapon, if you can't use it?"
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abunai
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:47 pm Reply with quote
"Jawohl, mein Führer! Uh, I mean, Mr. President." Wink

Kubrick makes the same point in Dr. Strangelove as SaiKano does - that an ultimate weapon by its very nature is useless, because it kills off all parties to the conflict, including the side that possesses the ultimate weapon. He just uses a much less agonising, and more humorous, approach.

- abunai
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The Ramblin' Wreck



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:28 pm Reply with quote
Ah, now theres an AMV for you:


"We'll meet again. Don't know where, don't know when..."

to

Saikano



/dashing off to AMV.org to claim the idea.
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