Forum - View topicRe: Nudity in Elfen Lied
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16961 |
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If you call that an extreme you need to get out more. Sarcastic sure, but hardly demonizing him or extreme. Since you obviously have a personal issue with me, as you take time to backseat moderate and tell me what I should or should not do in many threads, I suggest you either PM me personally with your issue or a mod. In the interests of fairness however; Hellkorn, was my response extreme, and do you feel I demonized you or insulted you personally and not simply disagree with your opinions? |
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Zero89
Posts: 147 |
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I'll commend you for actually responding to so many post... it shows that you really care about the issue, and aren't just blowing a bunch of hot air... I'll respect you for that fact alone... Warning: lengthy post ahead.
right here:
First of all, looking at the comedic moments to determine that the entire series is not serious, or full of fanservice is just... stupid. A small portion, and I mean small--- the scenes you mention are almost exclusively in the first 3-4 episodes of the show, should not be what determines anything about the show as a WHOLE... This quote just serves to further my statement.... You say many reasons why you believe the show to be a harem, as if this somehow validates your opinion that the show is "not serious". while ignoring the fact that maybe a show could be a harem AND something else.... like a drama. This does nothing to show that it is or is not 'fanservicy', as I stated earlier... I assure you that the BESM syndrome you describe is also rampant in Kanon, a show you admit is not solely focused on fanservice.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that the comedy in Elfen Lied is it's weakest point, and that much of what they thought would be "funny", I found to be a bit of a distraction, and was poorly done... But I DO believe that some type of distraction was needed as an emotional break for the viewer. Even with those moments, I couldn't watch more than 4 episodes without taking a break... you can call the show "not mature", that's your opinion, but I for one was simply overloaded with emotion... so much so that I needed a break, and without those few comedic moments, I don't know If I would have had the heart to finish the show.
Frankly ridiculous, right, I totally agree with you... don't watch ghost stories... it wasn't meant to be a comedy, and that was merely a transition from japanese to english... heaven forbid that a producer might change the target audienceS for an anime, I mean, I'm sure all manga turned anime are faithful adaptations to their manga counterpart... Don't watch full moon either, I mean it's EXACTLY like it's manga counterpart... somber and morbid... no wait, it's not.
If he can figure out what I meant, why can't you?
While you didn't actually state that, was I supposed to assume that when you mentioned that the company that made the show, primarily specialized in hentai did not imply that by association, Elfen Lied must also be perverted? Anyway, I HAVE seen I"s Pure in it's entirety, and parts of Himawari, and I can assure you that there is almost no "fanservice" in I"s pure--- at least the way I'm assuming you mean, because all shows have some form of fanservice or another.... They save all that for the Omakes, and leave the show pretty much as a romance story... a damn good one at that. See how this logic doesn't work?
This is your opinion.... I'd actually say that it's a mixture of what you stated, and a show that tried to be serious.... How else do you explain the shows take on the darkness of human nature? You seem to think that a show needs to be either all style, or all storytelling/depth... they don't... And to answer your question, no, I don't, though I don't see how that has anything to do with Elfen Lied seeing as how that show is so much more emotional than either Gantz, or Rambo.
While I see where you're going with this, it doesn't really pertain to Elfen Lied.... The way the stories are told are just too different.. yes there is a vague similarity, but Rumbling hearts main conflict is not because haruka (I think that was her name) spoiler[can't realize how much time has passed, but because takayuki does not know what to do once she awakens from her coma. He has for all intensive purposes, moved on, but is torn from the guilt he feels for "causing" her to be in the accident... So most of the show is actually about him admitting his true feelings, and getting over his guilt...] cliched, I know, but very different from what you stated. Rhaxephon's use of that route is only a very minute part of the shows plot, so much so that it's not even worth mentioning, and is explained in the series... --- spoiler[he didn't even really forget haruka, time just flows differently in tokyo than in other places... he doesn't recognize haruka because she is so much older than he expects her to be; he does remember the younger haruka-- she's the young girl you see in the first episode.]
Of the shows you mentioned, I've only seen Black Lagoon; so I'll tell you why I believe Elfen Lied did a better Job at conveying the message, and causing the viewer to empathize with these "monsters". I cried many times in Elfen Lied; not once in Black Lagoon. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy black lagoon, but when you found out about Revy's past, did you sympathize with her when she bloew someone's head off? When she attacked an innocent bystander? I didn't, and yet I found myself wanting the children to die when lucy's dog was killed. I understood why she had no problem killing innocent people, and despite everything she did, I felt sorry for her. Now this could be attributed to any number of things, (i.e. something else other than the nudity; probably a conglomeration of things), but it DID play a factor. I'm not saying that all the nudity depicted in Elfen Lied was integral to the story, but a lot of it was. Maybe it could have been done differently, but could it have been done better, I don't kow; but why must it not use nudity to convey it's message if it already does a good job with it? edit: fixed some grammar, and clarified Last edited by Zero89 on Sat May 19, 2007 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ishmael
Posts: 128 |
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I think some people emphasize too much on some aspects of the show. Heck, calling it an harem show is a long stretch, and calling most of the nudity fanservice is discounting the fact that fanservice has to be pleasing to the eye. Now a bloody Nana, not counting her young age, does not register as "pleasing" to me.
But some fans must also accept that some of the nudity IS fanservice in EL. Like when Lucy arrives at Kota's, the bath scene, and even the confrontation between Nana and the other diclonius (Mariko? Not sure) - why were her clothes torn anyway??? Other than that, it adds very effectively to shock value, to the apparent innocence of diclonius. I mean, the scene where Nana dreams she is naked on a cross... to some people, this has to be really shocking! I'm sure some would see it as blasphemy. I guess some people consider all manner of nudity fanservice, ok, your opinion, but for most of the scenes with a lot of skin, there was also a lot of blood. Quite a turn down, IMO. Was it necessary? Probably some of it, but not all of it. But I also like the fact that some people seem to consider the nudity in Elfen Lied or in any anime for that matter, more shocking than the violence... Cause I did not see a thread "Violence in Elfen Lied" yet. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Are you normally irate, or is this a rare occurrence?
Yes, actually. Watch Amazing Grace, a movie about William Wilberfoce's fight to end the slave trade in England. Never once were we shown any whippings, and the cruelty talked about was still nonetheless effective to its audience.
Why are "Nazis" and "Jews" censored? Anyway, showing the Jews and others that the Nazis took in (gypsies, Communists, the mentally retarded, etc.) by how sickly they are, deprived of any comfort, so many dying, losing any spark of life -- that's all possible without violence.
Showing her before and after with bruises on her face, arms, legs, whatever? Dialogue involving any injuries she might've received? Her own behavior after being sexually abused? Yes, it can be done.
To get the point across you don't have to be overwhelming with its content. That's not what I'm getting at here, though. I'm not particularly bothered by gratuitous violence and sexual content in storytelling like some, but I do disagree with people trying to say that "it's all meant for a purpose," and, in your case, "it can't be as effective unless you show the act being committed," which isn't always true.
Where exactly have I said that it is unacceptable to me unless you agree with my opinion? Oh, and frentymon, I appreciate that you're able to understand where I'm coming from and not get all hot and flustered. It's refreshing considering that the Internet is such an easy way for people to vent out emotions such as anger where they don't even really have to face the person they're doing it with. It's even moreso refreshing considering that it was you that I originally replied to.
You came on more strongly than you should've, but I was hardly "insulted" by it. I've encountered worse on the Internet, never mind out in the real world. Plus, I believe that I've had some discussions with you in the past, and I know that you aren't inherently a jackass or whatever. It's cool.
It's just that I don't see something where you have conventions from a whole variety of genres thrown together in a chaotic fashion to really be all that serious. My viewpoint is somewhat similar to the one in the AoD review thread, specifically Kakugo.
If you don't share that view but understand where I'm coming from, then that's fine by me, too.
Ah, but fanservice is not solely restricted to sexuality.
I would think that cutesy catchphrases would be a type of fanservice. While I don't particularly care for that, it doesn't mean that it's inherently bad. Again, my complaint isn't that there is fanservice in Elfen Lied, but rather that people are claiming that the nudity exists solely for a valid reason, which a number of scenes in the anime prove that to be untrue.
The violence remained pretty much intact from the manga to anime adaption. While the sexuality was toned down (thankfully the anime removed the diaper girl and various lesbian-esque scenes, ugh), a lot of the scenes containing fanservice remained. Is it too hard to imagine that the target audience didn't really change all that much, if at all? But again, that doesn't mean someone outside of the demographic can't enjoy it.
I'm a simpleton.
More or less, I suppose. The track record of an animation studio usually is telling of the type of anime that they do. Now, this does not mean that every single thing that a studio does is the same, far from it, but the style of that studio is usually integrated into other works.
It was actually a resposne solely to Gantz, not Elfen Lied
The whole thing is still triggered by spoiler[that pink-haired girl not understanding that a lot of time has passed. If she had done so, then the decision would've had to come earlier and it wouldn't have been drawn out until it couldn't be drawn out anymore.]
The thing is though that the movie changes these details while the series does give a reason for it, as Izibuchi mentioned.
Getting me to get all emotional in fiction is hard enough to begin with. I didn't do either with Elfen Lied or Black Lagoon. I felt that BL managed to do it more effectively because it didn't have to blatantly toy around with audience's feelings. Of course, it is more effective for you because you were emotionally involved in EL. That's pretty simple to understand. Edit: Typos suck. Last edited by HellKorn on Sat May 19, 2007 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lazybastard
Posts: 22 |
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Like you said, the symbolisms in the show are pretty obvious. Selenta pretty much hit all the nails back in the first page. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out all the main points such as how humans can be more inhuman than the diclonius. Hell, it's not easy to make the audience feel sympathy for a mass murderer. But your right, I probably should have used "themes" rather than "symbolism". I apologize for the wording. |
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omar235
Posts: 1572 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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I can't say all the nudity in Elfen Lied was symbolism, but neither was it all fanservice. One part that stuck into my mind which actually made me a bit sad was the part where that one diclonius was chained up to a wall and was being pelted with metal balls. The scene (IMO) was trying to show how little they cared about these beings, they didn't even care enough to wash off the blood that covered her body, or at the least throw a rag over her body so she wasn't in the buff. They apparently aren't willing to spend much in the way of taking care of these beings. Any way that is just how I saw it. I think this also is the reason Lucy was naked when she was escaping the facility, it showed that they didn't even want to spend the little bit of extra resources to put cloths on her.
Of course I could be wrong and this show could have been created for all those Guro fans out there. Last edited by omar235 on Sat May 19, 2007 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lazybastard
Posts: 22 |
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That would be what the manga is. |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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You mean guro fans. As opposed to "guru fans", who are really into meditation and stuff. - abunai |
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Pepperidge
Posts: 1106 Location: British Columbia, Canada |
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Man, threads like these really drive me up the wall. Can someone please explain to me why nudity always has to have to have some kind of artistically or morally justified significance in order to be considered valid or acceptable in a work? What ever happened to "people want to see tits"? That's usually what it amounts to, but so few want to acknowledge that, or acknowledge the possibility that there's nothing wrong with that.
Not that I even like Elfen Lied, but come on, do the people who are so prudish on this particular subject even realize that nudity was practically a mainstay in mainstream media, be it Japanese or western, in decades past? Even many serious films, like Day of the Jackal, were littered with gratuitous nudity for no apparent reason. But apparently nudity for the purposes of stylistic appeal seems to be an incomprehensible concept today for the majority. Go figure. |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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It's a Japanese thing. You have to look at this through their eyes. To them the concept of embarsssment of the exposed human body was a learned thing that only goes back to the 19th. Century and the forced opening of their ports to the outside world, who were at that time staunch evangelical Christians on a mission to "convert the pagans to our enlightenment" .
Also this title is a watered down version of the manga that is just another story plot of child abuse, but even though they look and act basically like under aged or teenaged girls, they have given them horns and called them inhuman monsters for retaliating against the institutions and the people involved with said institutions who made them that way, so to justify it's okay to abuse and kill them in anyway they like. Not much different to many other moe, loli hentai themes flooding the Japanese anime and manga market both professional and amateur. Beauty and sadness. It's the basic theme in mostly all of Japanese art in whatever genre or media, sometimes in the most gory and detestable way. Who else can draw a picture of the brutal bloody rape of an 11-year-old virgin girl, or boy in such a beautiful way. As much as your head is screaming painfully "THIS IS SO WRONG!", your eyes can't stop looking. It's a Japanese thing. accept it, or reject it. |
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DKL
Posts: 1957 Location: California, USA |
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Okay, this has turned into a pretty big mess...
So I guess I'll just toss in my 2 cents for good measure and run away... While I love Elfen Lied, it doesn't exactly come across as the most competent of film-making. (much in the same way I love Shakugan no Shana) Also, I actually consider Elfen Lied as a moe show. But then, I also consider Gunslinger Girl as a moe show, but GG’s film-making comes across as more competent (probably due to the fact that Mamoru Kanbe was like serving under Morio Asaka back in the first half of Cardcaptor Sakura). But, what I’m saying is… I’m perfectly okay with the fact that my sympathy is being bought with all the plot-devices, but I’m not exactly gonna avert my eyes from what I see as completely obvious… Okay, bye! *runs away* |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16961 |
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Yes, we have on various threads. I want to point something out that I feel most people here on ANN seem to not be able to understand. It seems whenever you criticize someone's opinion, regardless of who you are and who they are, everyone seems to automatically assume you're directly insulting them and are out for "revenge." So in other words, people can't argue and disagree but yet not hate the other person? As for inherently being a jackass, ::thinks of a good arguement,:: Nope I got nothing. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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That was an error on my part (also corrected the Amazing Grace referral), but hey, whatever works! |
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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Oh no, this is nothing at all compared to the last large Elfen Lied thread. That one was just angry. And angry, and more angry. |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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What this basically comes down to is that it is something we can't ignore, but something that has already been done, so we can't prevent it. There's going to be series like these again and again, that is the nature of the Japanese anime/manga world. They come out with violent semi-porno type series, if they are a big hit, you'll see it over here, and if it's not, then it dies in history.
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