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Jūni Taisen: Zodiac War (TV).


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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 2849
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:08 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
Not only case of the episode character dying again, but also a case that I liked the character. The showing that she is quite the actress and able to like a bird of prey swoop in when her target is most vulnerable. Which in turn makes it all the more weird that she failed to attack monkey, blaming it on the drug, but I like the theory put that monkey's power or something is something used that can neutralise people from being aggressive from her or like. Monkey has actually been at the top of my list of extended main character, but her place as next in the ED and next episode title does seem to hint she will be the next killed. Often times the mystery of who next is supposed to be part of the show, but maybe this one is a bit off that, considering the author, it all seems more as springboards for different characters rather than a focus on mystery of who falls.

So if monkey is likely to fall next, I think rat will be the one to pay attention to. If I remember the story of the zodiac race, it is the rat that won by sneaking onto the ox, and so far we are moving backwards from the supposed rankings, which would imply deaths would be: boar, dog, rooster, monkey, sheep, horse, snake, dragon, rabbit, tiger, ox, and rat. Although, now that I think about it the snake already died, but is a zombie and is placed around the supposed brother of the dragon, where their stories might come around or at the same time for an extra episode in one in twelve. I am thinking ahead to what power the rat would have, which by looking at the tale the rat won by being unnoticed and hitching a ride, which could have a connection to how people think they have seen the rat before but figure out where. Or looking at how he introduces himself as "killing all" makes me think of the rat's reputation as carriers of plague.

But I could make up other theorise that I don't know how much of a stretch. I think that I saw someone say he might have pretended to be the referee or something, but that also gives me an idea. This rat might be the 13th, the animal that did not make the race, the cat. Which I think was from a combination of the cat sleeping, and being lied to by the rat, the sleeping bit could be easily compared to how rat is always sleeping, almost a weird addition. Which along the lines has me theorise along the term of "copy cat", the cat is a master of disguise and or copies abilities, and maybe this is has something to why people have a vague feeling of seeing him somewhere. Interesting animal fact, cats actually do have such a mimicry ability, the sound they make differs depending on their targets, where apparently they have been known to make mouse like sounds to lure them into lowering guard. And the one we mostly hear with humans is actually cats mimicking the sound of human babies, which is why their meows tend to have an emotional response.

Anyway, that will be my theorise for now.


Theory above doesn't hold water since the "cat story" turns out to be an embellishment of the original tale centuries after it was told with the order of the Eastern Zodiac long since fixed by the time the "13th animal" correction started making the rounds. Duodecuple as the umpire isn't a copy of anyone because his role IS reflected in the original tale (not as an umpire though).

With regards to the Snake, a simple way of getting round the fact he's been dead since the start of the series is to rewind the clock back to when the two brothers are making their way over to the meeting place. That way viewers find out the circumstances behind the Snake's untimely death. Alternatively the story is told with the Snake already under Rabbit's control, but that's not going to be much fun since he's already a puppet by this stage and can't really do much without orders.

It's not going to matter for 99% of the forum users, but the official webpage of this series has fairly detailed character biographies which are minor spoilers in their own right. The Anime Spotlight feature on this website basically translated what's over there into English for the benefit of users here.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23779
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:59 am Reply with quote
It would be very disappointing to me if the show does follow the zodiac order for kills. Especially since, at least right now, spoiler[Ox is probably] the least interesting character for me. I suppose that could change if we get spoiler["the flashback backstory" treatment for him at some point (er, before the episode he dies, that is]). However, if this is actually going to be the case, I'll simply have to mentally switch gears. It is a show I can enjoy even if I know the death order in advance.

Interesting points, DP. I was the one who floated the Duodecuple/Rat theory as an explanation for everybody's deja vu where Rat is concerned, but as Harleyquin points out that element is not part of the original tale, therefore I don't believe it will be used here.


Last edited by Blood- on Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:39 am Reply with quote
Etotama had it, I don't see why it might exclude this one?
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:16 am Reply with quote
DP, this just occurred to me, but you should go back and put the Zodiac order in spoiler tags since it seems the show is followiing it and so that information acts as a spoiler. For example, I know wish I didn't know who the last two survivors will be (assuming the show keeps to its pattern).
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 2849
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:32 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
Etotama had it, I don't see why it might exclude this one?


There are so many stories behind the origin of the Zodiac that there's no generally accepted version to serve as the baseline. It so happens the one all children growing up under the same cultural sphere remember vividly talks about the cat as "Number 13" to explain to children why cats and rodents are predator and prey respectively.

That DOES NOT mean that Nishio Ishin is going to base his story on that particular Zodiac story, especially as the oldest ones date back over a millennia. Archaeological evidence has found traces of an independent wildcat species which originated in China over 3500 years ago, but that species is now extinct and has no relation with the domesticated cats that dwell in China today. Combined with the fact that the earliest Zodiac story predates the earliest known written record of domesticated cats in Chinese History by two to three centuries as well as the utter lack of Chinese idioms concerning the cat relative to bigger felines like the Tiger, it's easy to conclude that Duodecuple isn't a stalking horse for "Number 13" and is in fact playing a slightly modified role from the original legend behind the Eastern Zodiac order.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:03 pm Reply with quote
I am just putting a theory forward of what type of twists we could possibly get. And I don't think it is entirely guaranteed that this anime about various super powered killers in Japan is going to purely stick to some 3500 year old story rather than use influences of more modern and well known versions that are used in modern anime. Especially not enough to just straight out tell me that it holds no water.

Talking about influences here, just something I heard recently could explain why the rabbit character is able create zombies. In lore and the like rabbits are associated with the moon, and thus are attached to the moon's theme of rebirth, in a way similar to even western beliefs with Easter, and thus can see the connection of those killed turned into zombies. But the series I was recently watching in talking about this mentioned that older beliefs were of it being clams that were on the moon (supposedly by ancient Chinese), which later became toads, and then became rabbits. So if this is going by 3500 old stories, I don't know if rabbit would have that connection.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:55 pm Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
I am just putting a theory forward of what type of twists we could possibly get. And I don't think it is entirely guaranteed that this anime about various super powered killers in Japan is going to purely stick to some 3500 year old story rather than use influences of more modern and well known versions that are used in modern anime. Especially not enough to just straight out tell me that it holds no water.

Talking about influences here, just something I heard recently could explain why the rabbit character is able create zombies. In lore and the like rabbits are associated with the moon, and thus are attached to the moon's theme of rebirth, in a way similar to even western beliefs with Easter, and thus can see the connection of those killed turned into zombies. But the series I was recently watching in talking about this mentioned that older beliefs were of it being clams that were on the moon (supposedly by ancient Chinese), which later became toads, and then became rabbits. So if this is going by 3500 old stories, I don't know if rabbit would have that connection.


You're making your suppositions on the premise that Nishio Ishin is borrowing from other anime when writing his novel. He wrote this in 2015 so without reading the book or watching other series with the same theme I cannot confirm nor deny you'd be right in your "guessing". What I can tell thus far from what has been aired to date is the "13th animal" theory doesn't hold water whatsoever simply because Duodecuple is playing the umpire he said he would be. His biography on the official page is also very much shorter than the 12 combatants.

The rabbit having the power of necromancy doesn't seem relevant at first glance, but the one trait rabbits have which most of the world recognises (rightfully or wrongfully) is their incredible ability to procreate and multiply. Since this "Rabbit Warrior" is working on his own, the ability to raise the dead to fight for him is most likely a reflection of this trait in the series.

On a side note, the rabbit and the moon connection for the ancient Chinese is an old tale that goes back centuries and it's also recognised by the Japanese. I don't see why previous anime series are always taken as gospel when it comes to referring to old cultural legends especially as toads AREN'T involved at all in that particular fairy tale. Not that it matters to a viewer from Australia who has already stated he has no in-depth knowledge of the cultural sphere this series (and others related to it) is based on.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:56 pm Reply with quote
Clearly somebody saw the last episode of Elegant Yokai Apartment Life... Wink
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15466
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:17 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
On a side note, the rabbit and the moon connection for the ancient Chinese is an old tale that goes back centuries and it's also recognised by the Japanese. I don't see why previous anime series are always taken as gospel when it comes to referring to old cultural legends especially as toads AREN'T involved at all in that particular fairy tale. Not that it matters to a viewer from Australia who has already stated he has no in-depth knowledge of the cultural sphere this series (and others related to it) is based on.

Oh snap, you brought out my country of origin card! You sure showed me and did not take this into a situation where you went for a low blow by trying to say what country I live in should mean my opinion means less. It is not like Australia is close to Asia at all, that Japanese is one of the most common foreign language and cultures taught in schools, cropping up both in my primary and high schools, that the particular tale of the zodiac was something taught to me in school.

So what I don't know the whole ancient Chinese version of stories, but you don't have to be a dick about it. I have made it an effort in the past that I in fact have an interest in things like folklore and myth, and am always interested in learning more. And it is not like the version I mentioned is not widely known and used. The tale is used in a number of Japanese works from Etotama to Fruits Basket, as well as apparently the Japanese game Ookami.

Harleyquin wrote:
What I can tell thus far from what has been aired to date is the "13th animal" theory doesn't hold water whatsoever simply because Duodecuple is playing the umpire he said he would be. His biography on the official page is also very much shorter than the 12 combatants.

What does Duodecuple have to do with disproving the theory? I don't think the umpire was an animals in the story. I mentioned it because apparently Blood- said something about an imposter or someone as a disguise, and I said it only as an inspiration for a theory. Connecting to the modern story of the cat sleeping through the race to the rat here sleeping so much. Trying to figure out why people think they have seen the rat before but cannot place it, perhaps to a cat's connection to mimicry. Chances are it won't be the truth. but it is something I am putting forward right now.

If we are going to get into Nishio Ishin's novels being accurate to the ancient myths that appear in them, then maybe we should bring up his Monogatari series with how it handles vampires, which are hugely different from traditional lore. One of the main traits they have is them burning from sunlight, which first showed up in the silent film Nosferatu, and not any folklore or legends before that, not even a part of the story Dracula, which otherwise is the start of popular vampire pop-culture.

Blood- wrote:
Clearly somebody saw the last episode of Elegant Yokai Apartment Life...

I have been starting to enjoy that series now.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:41 pm Reply with quote
In case the Australian with the superficial interest in folklore wasn't aware, games and anime take fairly liberal license with cultural fairy tales. If you're going to take everything at face value and still claim an "interest" in folklore and myths, then be prepared to face rebuttals. You've staked your speculation on what I see as completely baseless theory, so both your opinion and mine is completely worthless until the show has revealed its cards.

Although unrelated to the Western Vampire popular myth and ethos, the Chinese 僵尸 from Taoist mythology is the closest parallel Nishio Ishin could have used for his Monogatari vampires. Although not strictly blood-drinkers (they consume bodies in addition to blood and go after both humans and livestock), they are only seen at night because they burn up in the sunlight. The tale itself is recent by Chinese standards (pre-dates Bram Stoker but not Vlad Tepes the historical figure) but it lives on in the popular imagination. Interesting (or not for the "cultural studies dilettante") thing to note is that the Chinese legend developed independently of the Western Vampire mythos.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:46 am Reply with quote
I would appreciate it if you at least used English letters on this English site instead using other languages to try and push yourself a bit up more, requiring me to work around that were talking about Jiangshi. Nishio Ishin even used it for one of his stories Mayoi Jiangshi. And no, a very strong defining trait of a Jiangshi is that they hop, they do otherwise have quite strong similarities, sometimes referred to as hoping vampires, but the vampires in his work are not Jiangshi either. I don't see your relevance of mentioning Vlad Tepes, he was only an inspiration for the Dracula story, one separate from all of the other vampire myth inspirations. My point was that Nishio Ishin novels are not all just to classic ancient stories, so you cannot exclude the influences of more modern variants.

And because you are making this about that, I don't take to kindly being referred to as "the Australian with the superficial interest in folklore", because it is kind of making you come across as racist. I have not gone after your nationality, and I would not do so. I have at least public displayed my country, while you are taking pot shots at me. Where do you get off saying I only have a superficial interest in folklore? You don't know me. It does so happen that Asian myths are one of the areas I don't know as much about, but despite me watching so much anime my background is in other cultures. I spent a good portion of my high school lunch breaks in the library reading encyclopaedia on folklore, fairy tales and the like, but these only had a few Japanese or Chinese stories, and am always interested in learning more.

So get off your high horse and stop acting like you are better than me. I may learn some of folklore through modern fiction, but I actually rarely take the face value of what shows up those stories as being a representative of the whole folklore and am just as interested then to learn about the history of the stories and how they may change. But none of that excludes that stories almost as a rule are as much influenced by a version another story did as the original stories. You see it as much as modern ideas of zombies against more historical versions of zombies and of what were ghouls.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:27 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
Nishio Ishin even used it for one of his stories Mayoi Jiangshi. And no, a very strong defining trait of a Jiangshi is that they hop, they do otherwise have quite strong similarities, sometimes referred to as hoping vampires, but the vampires in his work are not Jiangshi either.


If your idea of what the Jiangshi really is comes from watching Hong Kong horror movies, then yes I have every reason to say your understanding of the topic is superficial. The hopping part is the most distinctive feature which was popularised in said Hong Kong horror movies but the inspiration from that actually comes from a funeral tradition in Shaanxi. This tradition is itself completely different from the oldest records on this subject.

Written records of the Jiangshi actually depict several types, each with distinct features to differentiate them from each other. Some have the power to transform, while others are the harbingers of famine and heatwaves. If you're really as curious as you say you are regarding folklore outside of your home country, translate what's in the link below using machine tools to find out a bit more. The referenced texts are difficult to read even for modern users, so the quotations are themselves useful indicators of where Nishio Ishin pulled his inspiration for the vampires from (they're not strictly based on any one source, my theory is he's combined traits from both East and West for his vampires).

https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/殭屍 section entitled "僵尸的种类与特性"

My opinion regarding shows like this one is a simple one. Viewers are divided roughly into two camps, one camp comprising the English-speaking one hailing from countries outside the cultural sphere where the Eastern Zodiac is best known. The other half are those familiar with the Zodiac and its attributes with an optional understanding of Japanese wordplay which Nishio Ishin is fond of in his writings. The former camp (which the other two users on this thread most certainly belong) watches this show primarily for its action scenes since the Zodiac inferences don't mean anything to them. The latter camp enjoys the action as well as the corny wordplay used throughout the show (the Zodiac references also make more sense). I don't see any reason why speculation from the first camp needs to be taken seriously, especially when it's completely wrong. If anything, there's at least one user on the other thread devoted to this show who had to spoil himself on the plot which is another way of resolving this "argument" over "theory and speculation".

Anyone who reveals his or her place of origin on the internet has to be prepared for the consequences of releasing such information, a lesson I've learnt the hard way. I make no claim on "superiority" over others on this thread, but I don't think I'm going against the rules by refuting suppositions made by others here with what knowledge I have (none of which is based on spoiler material). As I said earlier, I might well be proven wrong in the end since all information on what has yet to be broadcast is completely worthless until proven right and wrong.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:30 am Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
Anyone who reveals his or her place of origin on the internet has to be prepared for the consequences of releasing such information, a lesson I've learnt the hard way. I make no claim on "superiority" over others on this thread, but I don't think I'm going against the rules by refuting suppositions made by others here with what knowledge I have (none of which is based on spoiler material).

Bullshit. You just said that you are dividing up people into two camps, one being people outside of the cultural sphere (like me), and the other being those with understanding of Japanese word play (you), and that any speculation from the first camp does not need to be taken seriously You just outright said that my opinion is worth less than yours, and you are implying that because I am Australian that my opinion is worth less, regardless you are being an elitist racist and saying your learned hard way about releasing information is just you projecting, and is no way to act in this forum.

Where I live should mean little. As far as you are aware you probably think I live in a desert in Crocodile Dundee country. I said I could be proven wrong too, but regardless it is not cool for you to try and discount my speculation out of the gate.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:32 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:

Bullshit. You just said that you are dividing up people into two camps, one being people outside of the cultural sphere (like me), and the other being those with understanding of Japanese word play (you), and that any speculation from the first camp does not need to be taken seriously You just outright said that my opinion is worth less than yours, and you are implying that because I am Australian that my opinion is worth less, regardless you are being an elitist racist and saying your learned hard way about releasing information is just you projecting, and is no way to act in this forum.

Where I live should mean little. As far as you are aware you probably think I live in a desert in Crocodile Dundee country. I said I could be proven wrong too, but regardless it is not cool for you to try and discount my speculation out of the gate.


Feel free to continue this line of thought. If you want to prove your existential right to project what I think is completely wrong speculation then by all means go ahead.

Thread goes like this:

1. You put out your speculation.
2. I think it's wrong and put out my reasons against it.
3. You disagree vehemently and put out even more reasons why you think your wrong speculation should hold merit.
4. I refute the following suppositions and posit the lack of cultural affinity with the subject matter as a reason behind the continued stream of speculation based on Western folklore and customs.
5. You accuse me of racism. Forum administrators get called in within short order to sort out the mess.

If I'm made to eat humble pie because the show proves your baseless speculation right, then I'll do so despite how unlikely I think it is. In the meantime keep the accusations coming since it's doing a great service to this thread by derailing it from its original purpose of discussing the series.
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Nordhmmer



Joined: 11 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:40 am Reply with quote
http://ni.siois.in/


Easiest way to resolve this,go ask him.
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