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When I made my comment the last time I still haven't watched episode 3, but seeing the controversy around it I gave it a chance and it seems to me Elaina went from being mildly irritating to just... a noncharacter. I'm actually fine with the choice narrative-wise that Elaina did not do anything for the slave (not okay with that action, but the story choice, just to be clear), if only they had clearly presented why she did not. Is it the promise with her mother? Or is it just too troublesome for her? Both? I don't know, the episode did not show or tell us. The episode's tiny tiny victory with her at least teetering into either fixing the pitcher or zapping the chief is immediately cancelled when minutes later we're shown she's gleefully basking again in the boy's praises over saying the most obvious thing (the slave girl must be sad, maybe a gift will make her happy). As if her dilemma minutes ago was choosing between a donut or a bagel for breakfast. That's why when she says as she leaves, "Kindness and beauty can sometimes be cruel.", it's so empty, so unconvincing that she knows what she's talking about, she might as well be reading it from a teleprompter.

I can imagine the story trying to remedy Elaina's handwaving of the cruelty she observes with some event that will finally force her to do something. But to me, that doesn't make much sense. Her behavior now makes you think she's some battle-hardened traveler who has seen all manner of tragedy, delivering the moral lesson of a fable so impassively, So how can it be convincing that a future conflict will make her act beyond self-preservation? And if the show does not introduce such conflict, why make it about Elaina in particular when she just serves as a camera for a documentary on "this fantasy world sucks"?

a_Bear_in_Bearcave wrote:

Yep. Kino's Journey also had episode with slavery, but the revelation of slavery was both more horrifying, and the slavers spoiler[ended up dead because they tried to backstab Kino - as you might expect from evil people - and she was too late to help their victims, which happens quite often in her journeys.] There wasn't this shitty message that slavery is just a thing that happens, you gotta deal with that.

This. Even in the widely regarded inferior version Kino no Tabi 2017, there is another exploration of slavery that is still miles ahead in the portrayal of the characters' thoughts about their action and/or inaction, from both the POV of the slave and Kino. spoiler[In this story, the slave blames herself for the death of her masters because she wasn't able to tell them on time that they used a poisonous herb for their soup. Not wanting to live with the burden, she tried to kill herself with a gun, only for one of the slavers taking the bullet himself. She eventually decides to live on, and leaves. The next day, Kino arrives at the scene and is shown ruminating about the deaths of the group of slavers (Kino is unaware that they were slavers), wondering if she would have been able to save their lives if only she got there on time. What strikes me here is, if she was already balancing her options even after it was too late, just imagine her dilemma if she were present at the time. As the audience, we know that if Kino were there, she will then be burdened with the choice of saving the slavers by telling them about the poisoned soup, or letting fate run its course and potentially allow the slave to obtain freedom.]. The Kino story manages to tie up the introduction of two moral issues with an ending that uses its protagonist as a device to frame the question "What should have been done?" This episode was far from perfect, and Kino literally does nothing, and yet it manages to convince the viewer that the moral dilemma is present.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

My take on the whole slavery issue is just completely different from what everyone else was seeing, so I guess I missed something along the way. I didn't get the impression that slavery was actually a thing in this village/country. It seemed to me that the village head had to go really far afield just to find a slave, which he seemed to have not even been actively looking to buy, but rather was offered to him, and he took the deal. If slavery were the norm in this area, he could've just rolled down to the local slave market at any time and picked up one or two that suited him.

Yeah, I agree with that.
He said he got her from the East, which was implied in episode 2 to be a long distance away.
My take is that he was there for business, maybe attended a slave auction, saw a girl who he thought would "become a real beauty" and purchased her to use as a servant.
So all the people in the village would just assume, "ah, the chief got a servant. That makes sense".
I mean, that doesn't really change matters much, but it does appear to be that slavery isn't something that is everywhere. We don't know if it's looked down on outside of the chief's house (where it benefits him and his son so why would it be bad?). I believe Elaina reacted a little hearing Nino was a slave, so that implies she doesn't really like the idea (might be misremembering tho!), but I guess she felt there wasn't much she could do.

Last edited by PonSquared on Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ep 3..

NOPE! We are DONE! This is the worst show ever. EVER.

My wife and I were watching together. The second the credits rolled we said, spontaneously said in unison, "I'm done."

Is loathe a strong enough word? Just, the worst show.

So, in the first half there is a really cool story about man eating plants what should have been at least a full episode if not a multi-episode story. Do we get any.... anything? No. Just, "Oh, plants are eating people... look at that guy being eaten. Welp, time to go!" Elaina is an heartless vacuous emotionless pathetic psychopath. Never mind the fact that the whole plant zombie bombs and whatever she was - spirit - flower queen - whatever were super interesting. Nope! "Time to go. I wonder what happened to those people!?" UGH!!

Then, if that was not bad enough, we get to the second half. Oh, so the girl is a sex slave being repeatedly raped and beaten. Neverminded that dad is a pedophile and a jerk. Do we get anything... ANYTHING from Elaina? Of course not. She does NOTHING! Is she blind, stupid, or an emotionless unfeeling monster - or all three? She just up and leaves and says, "I never saw here again. Hope things worked out." She didn't even care. Almost like she was thinking, "Hay, my dad raped, beat, and eventually murdered our family slave - doesn't everyone? Eh, well, whatever."

I didn't need her to be a hero or anything even though she absolutely could have been with her apparently powerful magic. But, it would have nice to see her care, or try to do something, or.. something. Not just duck out and forget about it.

We (wife and I) hate this show to levels we reserve for things like Elmo and Hitler. My boys didn't understand our reaction after we watched the episode so that is one small positive in all of this - that they did not pick up on any of the SCREAMING OUT LOUD subtext of this dumpster fire.

Good art makes you feel something. Great art makes you feel a lot.

Welp, nice job Wondering Witch. We hate you. Now we never want to see or hear from you again.

Rating: minus infinity/10

Out.

Holy cow I didn't expect this explosion of negative reactions.
All the hair-splitting aside, did anyone really expect this Kino no Tabi-styled work to suddenly become a knight-errant novel?

I guess Kino did state her non-intervention rule very early on (in the old anime at least) whereas all Elaina has going on is her promise to not put herself in danger, but nonetheless she isn't a hero, she isn't out there to fix the wrongs of this world, but instead the whole point of her journey is to see what the world has to offer - and revolting slavery in one of those things. It's somber, it's wrong, but Elaina isn't equipped to deal with it, neither in the personal nor in the meta-narrative sense.

Yuvelir wrote:

Holy cow I didn't expect this explosion of negative reactions.
All the hair-splitting aside, did anyone really expect this Kino no Tabi-styled work to suddenly become a knight-errant novel?

I guess Kino did state her non-intervention rule very early on (in the old anime at least) whereas all Elaina has going on is her promise to not put herself in danger, but nonetheless she isn't a hero, she isn't out there to fix the wrongs of this world, but instead the whole point of her journey is to see what the world has to offer - and revolting slavery in one of those things. It's somber, it's wrong, but Elaina isn't equipped to deal with it, neither in the personal nor in the meta-narrative sense.

Read previous posts, plenty of people including me watched Kino no Tabi and pointed out the differences in how each work approached the subject of slavery, or rather how Journey of Elaina ignored it completely. Somehow all the slave-masters spoiler[ended up dead] in Kino's Journey. Also, Kino never had any non-intervention rule, more like a guideline - remember when she overthrew the evil king and set all evil nobles for Battle Royale?[/spoiler]

I would also add Kino's Journey isn't above criticism especially with a lot of the reactions that fans had towards the reboot and it seems like Kino's Journey mainly got the acclaim it did because of the original anime adaptation that put it's own spin on the light novels' story. In the case of Wandering Witch, yes, not everyone has read the light novels and if you're jumping into the anime from the first two episodes it does give a radically different impression of the series than episode 3 did. You also had the recent comments from the author about not wanting any panty shots in the show because he wanted it to be seen as broader audience that I think also contributed to a lot of misconceptions about the series and made fans think it was going to be like Little Witch Academia or Flying Witch or something like that or that it was going to be a more progressively minded show.

Yuvelir wrote:

but nonetheless she isn't a hero, she isn't out there to fix the wrongs of this world, but instead the whole point of her journey is to see what the world has to offer - and revolting slavery in one of those things. It's somber, it's wrong, but Elaina isn't equipped to deal with it, neither in the personal nor in the meta-narrative sense.

No she isn't, but we also hardly get any insight to her thoughts on either matter. By the end of the episode it's "I don't want to know" and back to journeying. I would hope that these experiences would influence some character growth from her, but judging by her already inconsistent character and some people in this thread that have said she doesn't get any less full of herself, I doubt that any of the bad events she witnesses will impact her at all.

I don't disagree with her actions in the slave portion, though the plant portion was pretty poorly executed imo, but I need more than a "this thing is bad, moving on to the next thing" to keep me watching this series.

Really didn't expect that this would be the controversial show of the season, I gotta admit. Razz

Cardcaptor Takato wrote:

You also had the recent comments from the author about not wanting any panty shots in the show because he wanted it to be seen as broader audience that I think also contributed to a lot of misconceptions about the series and made fans think it was going to be like Little Witch Academia or Flying Witch or something like that or that it was going to be a more progressively minded show.

Looking back, that was probably just a purity/waifu thing. Elaina shouldn't be sexualized, but having a slave girl maid be sexualized is fine. Reading anything more from that statement was destined to disappoint people. Afterall, Detective Conan is an all ages show and that's filled with dark themes and acts like murder and sexual assault as well.

As for the show itself, these kinds of arguments always pop up when talking about morality of characters. I'd like to see more of the show first, but I think the slave one is an obvious trolley dilemma. And like most cases, the winning move is to simply not participate in that kind of scenario so as to absolve yourself of any of the outcomes. Because once you pull the lever, you become compilent with the outcome. She did the most logical thing in that scenario IMO.

The flower one might seem simpler, but it's just a case of nature I feel. The flowers feed on humans, it's a circle of life thing. Who's to say one living creature is more valid than anothers? Well, besides the humans, obviously. But the town wears masks and take other precautions to avoid them. It might be best to destroy them all, but at the same time who knows what that would do to the ecosystem. Do other creatures rely on the flowers for nutrients themselves? What about other plantlife? Is it any different than one animal eating another? Should Elaina burn down the town if they hunt the animals in the forest for food themselves to save the animals? Some people would probably say yes. I don't think it's a simple and cut as people might believe. Obviously if the town had the ability they'd probably destroy the flowers and do so out of survival like any prey would do to a predator, but who says that Elaina's decision to make since the flowers apparently know not to go after witches and are no threat to her.

Obviously everyone likes a typical hero who can go up to the obvious villain or creature terrorizing people and punch his block off like Luffy usually does, but not every situation is going to be like that, or maybe it shouldn't. But like I said, I'll need to see more.

I don't think it's the case of the trolley dilemma but Elaina is taking her promise with her mother back in the first episode to it's most extreme end in a way that I at least hope her mother didn't intend for her to take it that far. Elaina's mom made her promise not to solve everything that would be too much for her to handle. She took that promise in this hyper literal way to not try and help anyone probably due in part to her comfortable and privileged upbringing and party due to her own egotistical attitude.

So why couldn't Mirarose save her lover instead of watching him get tortured to death?

Why would her father kill him if he knew her power?

kinghumanity wrote:

So why couldn't Mirarose save her lover instead of watching him get tortured to death?

I'd guess that any action she could have taken would have meant defying the royalty and going into exile, and it wasn't until dealing with the grief afterwards and the murder of her baby that she snapped and didn't care about that anymore. There are a few similar situations that I can extrapolate that might fit.

kinghumanity wrote:

Why would her father kill him if he knew her power?

The lack of details regarding the king's character (aside from implicitly evil, given his actions) means there are many possible reasons. Such as: blind rage, arrogance, and thinking his control over her (if that was something he did) would continue to hold.

I feel this episode was better than the last one, as this is a situation where Elaina really couldn't do much more than observe. If she didn't arrive, then Mirarose likely would have ended up in the same place in the end, just without an observer to document how that city ended. And it's not like Elaina could have improved anything beyond what she contributed either. I would like to see an episode with a lighter tone soon to space out these dark ones though.

Maybe I missed a story detail that contradicts this explanation, but I had assumed that Mirarose didn't start practicing as a witch obsessively until after her lover's death -- a sort of grief-stricken plunge into the magical arts to seek a revenge she didn't have the power to exact at the time of the execution.

I generally agree that this episode was better than the past few, but it was carried pretty decisively and in isolation by Mirarose and her backstory (though, a quibble: Mirarose's maniacal laughter on fully regaining her memories didn't feel especially earned to me -- I thought it came off as villainous cornball rather than a woman completing her tragic fall into madness on dealing the long-anticipated, vengeful blow to her only kin). Elaina increasingly feels like a non-character; her "If I help you, will it benefit me?" response to Mirarose is at least a tiny window into how she thinks, but is sufficiently strange that it really calls for a more nuanced treatment. That incredibly terse explanation, and Mirarose's oddly immediate embrace of it, didn't really do Elaina's characterization any deep favors. Right now I just think of Elaina as somewhat selfish cardboard that we for some reason chose to follow through this world filled with moderately interesting (leaving aside Elaina herself) tragedies.

NeverConvex wrote:

Maybe I missed a story detail that contradicts this explanation, but I had assumed that Mirarose didn't start practicing as a witch obsessively until after her lover's death -- a sort of grief-stricken plunge into the magical arts to seek a revenge she didn't have the power to exact at the time of the execution.

The letter she wrote to herself said she should be able to kill the demon (her father) rather easily and she did have the power to change him into a demon with sufficient power to lay waste to the entire city (which had very impressive fortifications so it likely had a powerful standing army).

My personal interpretation is she was a powerful witch and her father underestimated her - to his doom and the doom of all his subjects.

As to Elaina, the anime is running out-of-order with the light novels (which I have not read). So it is possible she is supposed to be a hardened soul from an extended period witnessing what looks to be a rather dark world and because the anime order makes it look like she is still early in her journey, her attitude comes across as incongruous. Or perhaps she is just a narcissist and because the world appears to consider magic-users as a respected class, that plays into her natural self-assertion and reinforces those attitudes and makes her come across as unlikeable to much of the audience.

I personally am still enjoying the show, though it's likely not going to end as highly-rated as I thought with the premiere and there are others that have overtaken it on my Season Ranking.

So I take it episode 4 is more of the same, then?

Kiskaloo wrote:

The letter she wrote to herself said she should be able to kill the demon (her father) rather easily and she did have the power to change him into a demon with sufficient power to lay waste to the entire city (which had very impressive fortifications so it likely had a powerful standing army).

spoiler[But the letter was written just before she cursed herself and the king, not immediately after her lover was executed, right? My head-canon was this order of events:
Mirarose is a non-witch princess, loves Cook -> Mirarose, Cook romance, eventually she gets pregnant -> they spill the romantic beans to the king -> king orders lover executed -> torn apart by the scene of her lover getting burned at the stake, Mirarose sets out to learn the magical arts and take revenge on her father (and literally everyone else) -> Mirarose becomes a highly competent witch, writes letter to self, and curses father, knowing it will hit her with amnesia -> king slaughters kingdom while Mirarose slowly regains her memories in the castle -> the events of the episode take place. I wasn't paying excesively close attention to the episode, though, so certainly may have missed some reason this could not be the case.]

Gem-Bug wrote:

So I take it episode 4 is more of the same, then?

Mostly: spoiler[Elaina does get somewhat more involved than in the past few episodes (despite the quote I mentioned above), though she remains almost completely unelaborated upon as a character. The episode itself, outside Elaina, was a more effective and complete tragedy/story unto itself than the prior episodes, but was still just another stand-alone tragedy in the show's growing scrapbook of them.]

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