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SailorTralfamadore
Joined: 25 Feb 2014
Posts: 499
Location: Keep Austin Weeb
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:13 pm
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I can second what all-tsun-no-dere said. I was a part of that conversation at AnimeFest Dallas. Additionally, Dr. Napier is on the committee for my Ph.D. dissertation, where I analyze anime soundtracks through the lens of race, gender, etc. so I've heard her opinions on this in real time. Suffice it to say I don't think she'd have much common ground with those of you think this is an issue of "oversensitive feminists" (who rarely are the people trying to actually pull books from university libraries or curricula -- that's usually social conservatives, and that's who it clearly is here, too).
In this article she even acknowledges that the porn she's discussing is often misogynistic and that she doesn't like that. She also goes into this in the book, which I've actually read. She's just defending the right of academics and others to analyze it, to talk about it. But IME, the "wahh muh hentai" crowd doesn't like analysis either, since that analysis is often critical of the material, and that group is prone to conflating criticism of a media product they enjoy with criticism of them personally.
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TheAnimeRevolutionizer
Joined: 03 Nov 2017
Posts: 329
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:22 pm
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ATastySub wrote: |
TheAnimeRevolutionizer wrote: | Do they want the late 1990s and 2000s again? Because this is how you get the late 1990s and the 2000s again.
A reminder, we won that war. We'll do it all over again if we have to. |
What "war" are you even pretending existed? |
Before today's world of anime doing as its fancy, anime and manga long upset the status quo that comics and animation were nothing but "kid's stuff", and as today's controversial John Lasseter said, "animation is the scapegoat for bad storytelling." You should had seen the look on their faces back then. So many boltheaded adults were dumbfounded and struck with contusion that animation and comics dared to host mature topics and subject matter, and by that I mean going into what you'd read out of a young adult novel to R rated movie. Anyone can think whatever they want nowadays, anime and manga was the driving force that helped put away the Comics Code into the hands of the Comics Defense Fund and had the gall to grow up with its audience and respectfully did what it wanted with its freedom of expression while raking in the cash and taking names. There were uproars of karen parents lashing out at libraries during this time, and I think ANN did an article on this years ago about a case in Florida. None of them won out.
Of course, this is Ohio we're talking about, the place whose major city with combustible toxic river and leading exporter of crippling depression swears they're not Detroit, which has done more for the cultural fabric of the US other than be the other butt of the nation, like spur interest into anime by the 1980s Bubble Boom of Japan and sending out college kids out to the Land of the Rising Sun.
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BadNewsBlues
Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5927
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:38 pm
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TheAnimeRevolutionizer wrote: | Do they want the late 1990s and 2000s again? Because this is how you get the late 1990s and the 2000s again.
A reminder, we won that war. We'll do it all over again if we have to. |
Cliche as it sounds “but at what cost?”
TexZero wrote: |
The only one i can think of that is remotely applicable is the War on Drugs. |
War on drugs started in the 1970’s at least in the U.S. and despite the legalization of marijuana is still a pretty stupid and costly issue.
That aside I like to think they were referring to that period of time where anime was regularly edited “poorly” because apparently showing violence or the insulting process of eating foods of non American origin would offend certain sensibilities.
Which unfortunately also effected “some” American made TV shows.” Though to a lesser extent.
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TheAnimeRevolutionizer
Joined: 03 Nov 2017
Posts: 329
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:44 pm
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BadNewsBlues wrote: |
TheAnimeRevolutionizer wrote: | Do they want the late 1990s and 2000s again? Because this is how you get the late 1990s and the 2000s again.
A reminder, we won that war. We'll do it all over again if we have to. |
Cliche as it sounds “but at what cost?” |
As cliche as I'm going to bring it, "It's only going to get worse before it gets better". But I'm not that experienced to be wise, so who knows.
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ranran-001
Joined: 25 Oct 2018
Posts: 537
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:12 pm
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jdnation wrote: |
Quote: | "Nowadays we're very concerned about what we say. Which in many ways is a good thing. We need to be careful not to engage in hurtful or hate speech. But I think there's this tendency now where you have to not deal with controversial subjects." |
Welp, this is what everyone with a brain said would happen once government and institutions got involved with policing everyone's manners. There are an infinite number of ways for someone to get offended. It's unavoidable. If y'all can't get along, don't associate. There's no obligation for anyone to like one another, only to functionally co-exist. The bureaucracy should only get involved if things really escalate to the point of physical harm or direct constant daily harassment. Otherwise you're embarking on a puritanical fool's errand where new targets and constantly invented and can always be conveniently found to the point of self-destruction. |
errr no. There is a difference between racists who say racist and bigoted crap, and studying a genre of entertainment in an academic manner. One is done to belittle, exclude, and dehumanize people, the other is not.
Canceling racist turds is fine.
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 647
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:40 pm
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TheAnimeRevolutionizer wrote: |
Before today's world of anime doing as its fancy, anime and manga long upset the status quo that comics and animation were nothing but "kid's stuff", and as today's controversial John Lasseter said, "animation is the scapegoat for bad storytelling." You should had seen the look on their faces back then. So many boltheaded adults were dumbfounded and struck with contusion that animation and comics dared to host mature topics and subject matter, and by that I mean going into what you'd read out of a young adult novel to R rated movie. Anyone can think whatever they want nowadays, anime and manga was the driving force that helped put away the Comics Code into the hands of the Comics Defense Fund and had the gall to grow up with its audience and respectfully did what it wanted with its freedom of expression while raking in the cash and taking names. There were uproars of karen parents lashing out at libraries during this time, and I think ANN did an article on this years ago about a case in Florida. None of them won out.
Of course, this is Ohio we're talking about, the place whose major city with combustible toxic river and leading exporter of crippling depression swears they're not Detroit, which has done more for the cultural fabric of the US other than be the other butt of the nation, like spur interest into anime by the 1980s Bubble Boom of Japan and sending out college kids out to the Land of the Rising Sun. |
You might wanna actually read up on the history of comics codes, the US anime boom (and subsequent crash), etc, cause this weirdly hyberbolic view doesn't really match it. I'm certainly happy that anime is much more accessible now, but you're kinda reimagining old Manga UK like marketing ANIME ISN'T FOR KIDS as a sort of battle cry for a fight that never really took place. Anime getting popular wasn't about breaking laws, it was more about the logistics of getting it to viewers. Though I'm sure John O'Donnell would get a kick out of how well you've bought into his advertising long after CPM is gone.
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:44 am
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Alright, several of you need to take a step back and chill out. This is obviously a heated topic and the condescending lectures and passive aggressive posts from either side are not helpful. They only fuel the fire and cause more problems. So I suggest EVERYONE post a bit more civilly when making your points, or simply move on.
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capt_bunny
Joined: 31 May 2015
Posts: 364
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:51 am
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ATastySub wrote: | These were literal conservative lawmakers. Not people who care about social justice. It's really reductive to conflate the two because you don't like some tumblr posts but it's by no means a worthwhile comparison to make, especially in this case. |
I was saying that because despite liberals and conservatives being against each other; they tend to have some of the same ideology without realizing it. Mind you, my ideas are very much liberal but I am not a "leftist".
tygerchickchibi wrote: | This is simply a book that talk about themes in which parents don't often approve.
Sex is definitely not a new concept that makes parents uncomfortable and there are plenty of stories about that.
Even worse, I always seem to find news where (conservative) politicians don't even understand anime at all. When Eric Trump thought result images of Shigeo "Mob" Kageyama was a conspiracy theory to block searches of actual Mobs. |
You are right about some politicians. That's why I said quite a handful of religious and/or old people tend to think of this way with anime. The keyword being: most.
I've just seen as someone who prefers to be on the neutral side to see how they treat anime/manga topics or very heavy topics. I adore talking about heavy topics. I think its good to feel uncomfortable once in a while because we can find new feelings, opinions, philosophy, and psychology.
But back to the parents' thing; yeah, but not all parents. That's why I was thankful to have parents who would look at what I look at manga with these subjects and educate me. However, not everyone might be comfortable with talking about it. That's where anyone from both parties can relate to not wanting them or talk about the subject. Parenting is hard. Looking at heavy subjects we find in media is difficult. Maybe its because I believe in the ideology about how art should be able to make people feel anything. Explore whatever.
Mods, if I have taken my reply off-topic or if I sound rude (which I don't mean to be so sorry) then please feel free to edit my post. Good luck on this thread.
{Mod Edit}: I did clean up your post because there were some passive aggressive parts, and areas that were not very civil (i.e. rude). The social warrior term is also word filtered for a reason and people need to stop trying to get around it.~ Psycho 101
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NiPah
Subscriber
Joined: 11 Feb 2011
Posts: 205
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:25 am
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They know the voters they’re trying to rile up will never research what this book is, they’re literally telling them this is porn being given to children by “evil public education” and follows up with a call to completely defund the campus.
{Mod edit}: I edited your post some. The mods just mentioned to tone it down some. ~ Psycho 101
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Brett-Butler
Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 31
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:48 am
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Otaku-sempai wrote: | It is patently ridiculous to label an honest discussion of pornography, by itself, as being pornographic. Now, maybe there are problematic images in the chapter on the subject, that's the only real objection that I can think of that would carry any weight at all. Anyone in a position to elucidate? |
Just had a look at my copy of the book. The centre pages contains several black and white screenshots from several of the anime spoken about in the book. One of these images is a scene from “Legend of The Overfiend”, which is quite graphic and could be upsetting. Tentacles are involved.
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Otaku-sempai
Joined: 27 Mar 2017
Posts: 120
Location: Lackawanna, NY
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:38 am
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Brett-Butler wrote: | Just had a look at my copy of the book. The centre pages contains several black and white screenshots from several of the anime spoken about in the book. One of these images is a scene from “Legend of The Overfiend”, which is quite graphic and could be upsetting. Tentacles are involved. |
Okay, but would it be fair to label the image 'pornographic'? I'm guessing probably not.
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Brent Allison
Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2444
Location: Athens-Clarke County, GA, USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:15 am
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SailorTralfamadore wrote: | But IME, the "wahh muh hentai" crowd doesn't like analysis either, since that analysis is often critical of the material, and that group is prone to conflating criticism of a media product they enjoy with criticism of them personally. |
Sure, as academics we understand the distinction. But it's not as if social media interactions normally lend themselves to that level of nuance. The nature of the medium encourages participants to rush to either moral indictments, anti-intellectualism, or both.
My point is that we need platforms (like academia, but not just that) that inhibit fans from rushing to judgment so quickly or being so quick to adopt personas that are more like caricatures. Therefore, chilling effects on academic discourse are not something I would welcome.
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ranran-001
Joined: 25 Oct 2018
Posts: 537
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:01 pm
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Brett-Butler wrote: |
Otaku-sempai wrote: | It is patently ridiculous to label an honest discussion of pornography, by itself, as being pornographic. Now, maybe there are problematic images in the chapter on the subject, that's the only real objection that I can think of that would carry any weight at all. Anyone in a position to elucidate? |
Just had a look at my copy of the book. The centre pages contains several black and white screenshots from several of the anime spoken about in the book. One of these images is a scene from “Legend of The Overfiend”, which is quite graphic and could be upsetting. Tentacles are involved. |
And if the subject of study was Japanese woodblock art, it would be disingenuous to have a college level comprehensive course on the subject without discussing shunga, or that some woodblock prints were literally advertisement posters for brothels.
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:15 pm
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Otaku-sempai wrote: |
Brett-Butler wrote: | Just had a look at my copy of the book. The centre pages contains several black and white screenshots from several of the anime spoken about in the book. One of these images is a scene from “Legend of The Overfiend”, which is quite graphic and could be upsetting. Tentacles are involved. |
Okay, but would it be fair to label the image 'pornographic'? I'm guessing probably not. |
You'd be guessing entirely wrong on that one.
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CatSword
Joined: 01 Jul 2014
Posts: 1489
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:18 am
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Pornography's purpose is to titillate. An image of sexually explicit material, in the context of an academic examination of this work and the messages/values it contains, is not pornography.
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