Forum - View topicFunimation Discusses Leaked Episodes
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LagannImpact
 Posts: 574 |
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Funny you brought up Gurren Lagann, because that is a series I first saw a few episodes of in fansubs in my old anime club in 2007, before it got licensed in 2008. And some of those "friends" from the club swear up and down the professional dub Bandai did can't hold a candle to the fansubs, which tend to be a more literal translation." Of course, I have no idea what they're talking about; I loyally followed the English dub of the series in 2008, and I even picked up 10 episodes of iTunes files kinda like you did. But not withstanding that, Gurren Lagann was relatively low-profile in Japan compared to some anime superfranchises, coming on I believe Sunday morning at 9 AM or something, and appearing in two movies with limited screenings. It didn't have the following in the homeland as say a DBZ, Shin Chan, or even Fullmetal Alchemist. So how did it get so big over here? 2 Reasons: 1. Reputation - fans knew Gainax was good for Evangelion and FLCL 2. Fansubbing - this is the only good thing about fansubbing. When a show is not yet licensed, companies look at things like torrent rates in order to decide what to go after for "regionalization," a.k.a. dubbing or at least subtitling. So I can say in the case of Gurren Lagann, fansubbing seems to have done some good, as ADV and Bandai were most likely watching and taking notes, but it did attach a negative stigma to the official release because some of those who watched the fansubs believed they were better. However, when a series is already licensed in the US and even being STREAMED for FREE, there's just no excuse for fansubbing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. And what these butt-pirates did by downloading and torrenting Funimation property is even lower. |
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firecrouch
Posts: 125 |
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"Gurren Lagann" would've been big here with or without the fansubs, because ultimately fans would've ended up watching the show no matter what method and enjoying it. ADV and Bandai didn't need to track fansubs to know this would be a good sell, it had big names attached to it, it did really well in Japan, and more importantly it was just a really good show. |
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Shikatsu
 Posts: 2 Location: Reality |
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Sorry, but my personal thoughts on this whole thread are the following: it was ok, at the beginning, when everyone was worried about the site and when theyre going to go live again. and then it starts getting personal, like every forum, thread, subject, ect. does. CAN anyone IN THIS FORUM BE UNINFLUENCED BY OTHER PEOPLE??? CAN OTHER PEOPLE STOP INSULTING OTHERS???? for f%$#s sake people, it makes you all look dumb and rude. and i KNOW that you are all smarter that that.
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edzieba
Posts: 704 |
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writerpatrick
 Posts: 672 Location: Canada |
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Funimation is in a difficult spot when it comes to streaming. It's suppose to counter the fansubs by encouraging online watching over downloading. But it also discourages ownership, or at least encourages not owning the material. But DVD sales are based on people wanting to own the material. So by streaming they're effectively discouraging sales. But if they don't offer streaming then many would just turn to fansubs.
In some ways they started streaming too late. Although fansubs have been around a long time, by taking so long to provide a legal online system it's allowed fansubs to not only become established but to develop a semblance of legitimacy. It's hard to be an anime fan now without wanting to take advantage of what fansubs offer. And there will always be those who can't afford even a $100/year for anime. For many, it's free or not at all. They might be able to afford the occasional movie, but certainly not a $50 series. When anime was much more available on TV that satisfied that desire, but without the outlet of TV they have to turn elsewhere. So if a legal avenue isn't available it's hard to avoid being drawn in by the illegal ones. And sampling a series just isn't going to work; if one can't afford to buy the series then why taunt oneself with what they can't afford? |
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mufurc
 Posts: 612 |
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Yes, because available in the US = available everywhere. 
I'm sorry but as long as the legal alternative is not available for everyone people will continue searching out illegal alternatives. Is it a good thing? No, but that's just the way things are. (By the way, as far as I'm aware this case has nothing to do with fansubs and fansubbers, so I wonder why people are talking about them... then again, this is ANN.) |
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Miitan
Posts: 117 Location: Gensokyo, UK |
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So we've now had the same argument 3x over and reached exactly the same conclusion yet again.
People on the internet are dicks and Funimation employs/ed a monkey in regards to web security and now seems to also employ one for PR purposes. We've discovered that altering an easily viewable website address is now classed as hacking and that bad analogies are the best way of proving a point. We've discovered that stereotypes are the best way to catagorise anime fans and that if you're a fansub watcher you're clearly the scum of the Universe regardless of your buying habits or a saint freeing anime from the evil clutches of the licensors. We've also proved that Sturgeon's Law/Revelation is still with us in regards to the posts in this thread. |
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cyberbeing
Posts: 135 |
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I personally don't see this, but I'm not denying that mindset doesn't exist with some people. Exposure to a good show usually encourages someone to buy the show and other merchandise. They may not actually buy it immediately, but they are thinking to themselves that they wouldn't mind owning it at some point in the future. There is always going to be a segment of buyers who are very reluctant to buy something sight unseen, and having access to legal streaming and fansubs increases their purchases. The same goes for the opposite as well, where seeing something first reduces someone's purchases, but I personally don't know anybody who is like this.
Boxsets have become very inexpensive nowadays. Older series and thinpacks eventually end up around $25-30. If a person can't afford the newly released $50-100 boxset, then they wait it out until they can acquire it cheaper. If it never gets cheaper, they never buy it, and stick with legal streaming & fansubs, simple. There will always be people that believe they can't afford DVDs, but is usually because they have little to no desire to ever sit down on their couch and watch a DVD in the first place. In other words, they can't afford them because even if bought, they would rarely be watched, which makes it a bad value (i.e. money better spent elsewhere). As for a download-to-own option to turn some of these DVD haters into buyers, no one is doing it right yet. For example, why when I can buy the DVD boxset of 'Ah! My Goddess' for $1.50/episode, would I want to pay Funimation $2/episode for a poor quality DRM protected download? When I see things like that, it's like Funimation telling people, only idiots buy our downloads, the smart people realize our DVDs are cheaper and encode a digital copy themselves. Doing it right would mean selling DRM-free DVD-quality episodes for $1/episode when buying a whole series at once. When priced like that they suddenly become of similar value to buying a DVD with the do-it-yourself approach. This should also mean pricing DRM-free 720p Blu-ray-quality downscales for $1.50/episode when buying a whole series at once, since you can just buy the Blu-ray itself for $2/episode. Once again, when priced like that, they suddenly become of similar value to buying the Blu-ray with the do-it-yourself approach. There is also the idea that if the DVD/Blu-ray has both a English & Japanese track + subtitles, and the download only has one or the other, that should make it even cheaper then the prices I listed above. Once companies start viewing digital downloads as a replacement for physical media (to some people), they will realize that offering a sub-par product at a horrible value, isn't going to get these people to buy. If they want to keep download prices high, they will need to keep their physical media prices always higher, all while keeping up with price changes to keep everything priced competitively in both segments. For the people who are going to say those prices are too cheap, they aren't. Downloads by default should always be cheaper then physical media, since they have a worse value overall. Free streaming I could care less if the quality is sub-par, as long as a high-quality, competitively priced, download-to-own option is also available. Whether streaming ventures ultimately succeed or fail, the next step would still be moving toward more compelling download-to-own episodes which compete with physical media. For all I care, sell digital copy boxsets right beside DVD boxsets in retail, in addition to them being available as downloads, so you don't feel like your screwing over your retailers. |
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Brass2TheMax
Posts: 65 |
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Give this man an award for being the most reasonable, sensible person in this thread! Now, on a slightly different note, I have something of my own to add in relation to the issue of stereotyping fans vs. complete moochers who do nothing but download fansubs (and NEVER buy): And here it is: Every single person out there who thinks they can draw a fine line between these two stereotypes (or even at places inbetween) should wake up and enter the real world. People are *EXTREMELY* dynamic, and can't be stereotyped so simply. In fact, it is completely, and utterly impossible to segment these people into particular groups. The spectrum is literally unlimited. There may be two extreme endpoints (always buy and never download illegally vs. never buy and always download illegally), but everything in between melds together in such a way that there can be no line between stereotypes in any degree, at any point. And I doubt ANYONE out there fits exclusively into the "never buy always download illegally" or the "always buy, never download illegally". And I mean those words literally, never meaning not once in your entire life, and always as in exclusively and never in your life otherwise. So, and I mean this with all due respect, STFU about this issue, it's not possible to debate, nor is it worth the time. Lastly, just so you know what kind of person I am, it might help you to see that people who sometimes buy and sometimes download illegally can, in fact, change their habits over time due to the dynamic nature of human beings. Real-life example: I have literally terabytes of fansubs archived. When I was in my teens (I'm 23 now), I didn't have the money to spend on official releases. In high school and most of university, I would just come home from school and download whatever I wanted to watch, and in case I wanted to come back to a show years later, I backed up everything I watched as I went (thus, now I have this massive fansub archive). Some people in this thread would jump to call me one of these leechers who doesn't contribute back to the industry, as I've never once during my teens purchased a single anime movie or series. This is where the dynamics of being a human being and going through life come in. Ignorant people, leave now because you will not be able to comprehend this. Now that I'm as old as I am and have a job (still in university fyi), I've started to buy shows I really like that I haven't even seen in years. Shows that I still have archived fansubs for. Shows that, yeah, I might not even sit down and watch again for a long time. But nonetheless, it's more feasible for me to buy at this stage than it was a few years ago. Nowadays, I go out looking for boxsets (I never buy singles, ever) of shows I remember liking, and buy them without question. I don't have nearly as much in official merchandise as I do in fansubs, but I'm working little by little on my small collection. I still do download fansubs, but I do buy as well now too. So basically, I've gone from extreme "never, ever buy anime, always download and archive", to someone who does "buy anime when I can get it, and still download fansubs when buying is not an option/available". So where does someone like me fit in? I don't know, and I don't care. And we could argue about it forever, and ever, and ever, and it would be impossible for everyone to agree, so let's all just STFU about it. All I know is, I love the shows I watch. I don't download them simply because I can, but I do it and continue to do it because I want to see what's out there. While I'm sitting in front of my computer downloading away, and watching, I'm not thinking about how I'm screwing "the man" around, or anything like that. I'm enjoying the shows I'm watching, without any sense of entitlement, and realizing in full how wrong it is. But I'm not thinking about it at the time, I'm watching a kick-ass show, that if licensed here someday, I may buy if a well-priced boxset becomes available. But for the moment, it's time to archive some fansubs until that happens. I consider myself a true anime fan because I have a passion and love for the content. I try to buy legally, but if I can't, I'll download and archive a fansub. I recognize that a lot of people out there buy legally all the time (a lot more than me), and they're the same, they just love the content. Then there's those out there who buy legally with a love for it as well, but like to boast to those that don't buy it as often about what horrible people guys like me are. You people are not true fans, you're just pricks. There are also people out there to an extreme who do not buy whatsoever, but they are *EXTREMELY RARE*, as most of them do buy to a point. And you have to remember, if they really do love a series, they might not be buying now, but they might turn out like me and buy at a later date when their passion for a show or just for anime in general develops further. You gotta admit, even the guys out there who are ripping the DVD's have to go and buy them first. Hehe, that was meant to be in good humour, in case anyone is wondering. But true nonetheless. Anyway, there's going to be people who agree and disagree with my stance, and I don't care. There's no point in arguing about it, and fansubs will never go away. I will buy legally more often if companies can step up and provide me with a better alternative to them, but it's not happening right now. When it does, I'll be waiting with my wallet. My ideal way to buy anime that will probably never happen ever: Companies in Japan release Blu-Ray discs with as many episodes of a series as possible on each disc, making best use of the medium, complete with Japanese and English subs, but no English language track. These discs would be region free, and fairly priced (not necessarily low, just reasonable for what they are). That way, people who want to can import direct from Japan and watch with English subtitles. If a company wants to license the series and do a dub localization overseas, they can, but people wouldn't have to wait if they didn't want to. Dub people get what they want, sub people get more of what they've never gotten before (or at least, very rarely). Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann sub-only releases here in North America are a good example of what I mean. But let's face it, it will never happen, because it makes too much sense. |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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****Raise hand**** to the person who fall in the category of always buy, never download illegally. As to your habits personally I can commend you for buying what you like (and the industry appreciates the purchase as well, as they have stated buy something that helps), and would prefer that you could cast off the crutch that fansubbers have tricked you in. (So my objection is against it morally, so hold it to me.) As they are not needed and the industry is moving to fulfill the see-it-before I buy it and the only watch crowds by providing legal streaming, as there is no need to download if that is truly what your wanting.
Now as to your point of "We'll never agree so we should stop talking and debating." It sounds tyranical to me, as that is something that even philosphers will argue about right and wrong, what is the best way to go forward. This and other debates are needed and necessary. As once I held my tongue (when I got into anime around 2002-2003) and have regretted doing so. As if that is how the world moves that because we don't agree we should not talk to each other and debate then how change truly happen? |
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edzieba
Posts: 704 |
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Not needed. Right.
As has been proved time and again by other industries the only way to alleviate unofficial distribution is to make official distribution better. Not 'nearly as good', not 'it'll get better later', not 'better but only if you live here', but better in every way. There are absolutely no technical barriers to doing so. Last edited by edzieba on Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brass2TheMax
Posts: 65 |
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THIS. There are no technical barriers preventing companies from 'competing' with fansubs. Financially, maybe, possibly, arguably, but technically, no. Just FYI, what I said before about there being no point in arguing, I meant it more towards "there is no point in trying to stereotype people", from either side of the spectrum. It's just impossible. To debate how industry should change to compete with fansubs, well yeah, that should be debated without question. The only problem is, the people with the proper, reasonable solutions, are all people who don't work for said companies, so chances are industry will take forever, or maybe won't even bother, to change the way distribution works. It's sad really.
First of all, fansubbers have not 'tricked' me into anything. You'd be surprised, but anyone who downloads from fansubbers (including those who do buy through legal means) would not have found them unless they actually went looking for them. Or, perhaps may not have found them if they did not visit a site or source where fansubbers are discussed or maybe even frequent themselves. It's more likely that the people who download fansubs at all went out to find them, and not the other way around. Fansubbers are simply there, they are not going out on a limb to advertise themselves and 'trick' people into getting their anime from them and not from industry. You make it sound like some sort of conspiracy, lol. Secondly, even though I do buy legally, and prefer to more than fansubs (even though I do download fansubs as well), I have to disagree and say no, fansubbers are needed at this point in time. Industry, as much as you and me do want it to be, are not up to the levels of quality that viewers are wanting (in general, in some ways industry suffices). The last thing I want to do is watch anime streaming. I'm a quality-junkie, it's just the way I am. For someone like me, who wants to say, watch Eden of the East in 720p without pixelation, with AAC sound, with minimal encoding passes, it's gotta be fansubs for the moment. Same for something popular like Naruto. Sure, we've got Crunchyroll and other such services, but it's not good enough for some of us. We want good sound quality, and good video quality, the best that can be provided with current technology, not streaming quality. And industry CAN provide this, they just choose not to for various reasons, either financial or otherwise. Theoretical example: Instead of streaming, Viz could *theoretically* offer downloadable Matroska format files, H264 encoded video, AAC, Vorbis, or AC3 audio, and softsubs. I believe that Matroska can, in fact, be created with time-expiration capabilities, meaning they could have the episode expire after say, a week. It would be the same as watching it on Crunchyroll except much better quality, with ads if they wanted to mux them in there, and overall greater user satisfaction. The only downsides might be cost of production (almost nill, Matroska and the other applicable tools are open source, we're only talking man-hours to upload the files as encoding can be automated), and bandwidth cost. So I doubt the cost would actually be that much higher. But it's not going to happen. As we have learned, companies never do what makes more sense. |
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britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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Personally I feel that if you take a look in the retail forum you'll see plenty of non-US fans buying R1 products to be shipped to their country. I think that because these people are supporting the industry they deserve something...and yet I know its "probably" not possible. Maybe someday there will be different branches of Funi in different countries. |
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Plorkyeran
Posts: 8 |
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Matroska supports stream encryption which could be used to implement a DRM platform, but no one has done so and there's no reason to believe that the end result would be superior in any way to the currently existing options. |
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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No the trick I was referring to is the Need to see it before I buy it." The fansubbers have sold that as a method but it makes everything harder (What series do I watch? What movie? What comic book?) In this case they are saying to me to doubt my own judgement on a series. So for some they would say I was foolish to buy Le Chevalier D'eon sight unseen and unheard of until I saw it on a shelf at a "local" Best Buy. The try it before you buy it mentality made me unable to move past what was shown on TV, and so I had to go to a different method of determining what to buy? I can't trust an internet board (ask what a good series to buy on the internet and invariably the answer is all of them, and we know that isn't true.) So I go with trusted reviews and friend/family reccomendations. For me then I have the tools I need to make a determination on whether a series is worth buying or not, legal streaming for me then is functionally another tool in the toolbox. But for me every action I take has to help the anime industry, so that is why I can't go to fansubs.
As I've stated before, there is a disconnect for me in series that are released in Japan. I know they exist but they are not affecting me, as I would rather focus my efforts on what is available to me now immediately, instead of making a list of series that I don't have an access to. Now that doesn't stop me from suggesting and pushing for certain series to come over here (like Lupin the 3rd/Case Closed special, I don't need to be sold on that concept or series I can read the plot synopses and tell the industry which ones I'd prefer like in the poll Funimation took recently) But for me it is better to focus and support what you have so that it can be successful and grow. Plus I haven't seen everything released that is available to me, so I have options, even though it is unreasonable to expect an individual to see everything released (Why watch a show that is in a genre I don't like, or the concept sounds "off" to me personally?) Also when you start with a streaming or download model you normally don't go with people who have the best of the best, you go for the lowest specs that the market will allow, as you get more people that way. The infrastructure to do what you are wanting is coming but it's not here totally yet, as more people have to care/accept new technologies (and we are talking alot of people and no 100,000 isn't alot) |
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