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ValkyrieZeroZeroOne wrote:

Does the author of the article have any references to confirm that this was ever their intention? Because if not, this article reeks of poor journalism.

Sorry, that's entirely uncalled for. I was always under the impression that Gendo grafted "Adam" into his hand to start the new world with Rei who, yes is a spoiler[clone of Yui]. I felt much of it was symbolic, with Gendo becoming part of "Adam" and Rei fusing with spoiler[Lillith], two beings who in Judaism mythos, were husband and wife. Just like in that story, Gendo is rejected.

I am always open to further explaining my reasoning or interpretations, so let's not throw stones around.

octopodpie wrote:

ValkyrieZeroZeroOne wrote:

Does the author of the article have any references to confirm that this was ever their intention? Because if not, this article reeks of poor journalism.

Sorry, that's entirely uncalled for. I was always under the impression that Gendo grafted "Adam" into his hand to start the new world with Rei who, yes is a spoiler[clone of Yui]. I felt much of it was symbolic, with Gendo becoming part of "Adam" and Rei fusing with spoiler[Lillith], two beings who in Judaism mythos, were husband and wife. Just like in that story, Gendo is rejected.

I am always open to further explaining my reasoning or interpretations, so let's not throw stones around.

Until now, I was not aware of the story behind this mythos. Thank you for making the reference, as I think it is quite relevant and useful to know for the purpose of analysis. I certainly agree that the attack was uncalled for.

I heard a lot about "Revolutionary Girl Utena" and I'm not sure I like what I've been hearing about it. A magazine article I once read about this series seemed to sum this show up nicely. It called the show a "jerk-heavy" series. And this recent list with it at number one,seems,to me at least,a show that I'd be queasy about watching.
From what I've heard about the show,the characters are just so nasty,especially to each other that I question why I'd ever want to watch the series in the first place. This seems like such a cruel,nasty show that I'd wonder why anyone would find it entertaining in the first place.

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

Yeah, regarding Gendo Ikari: the only betrayal he could be said to make was against Seele. The members of Seele were suspicious of Gendo all along, but thought they had set things up where it didn't matter what Gendo did, they would win.

I also second Harry MacDougal's actions in Gungrave was a pretty amazing betrayal. However, IIRC we know from the 1st episode that he was the Bad Guy, so when we're watching the flashback episodes, we're just learning how it came to pass: that can't really be called shocking, though it was pretty sad. That whole series was pretty sad, IMO.

As far as the situation with Spike and Viscious goes: I'd have to say that Spike actually betrayed Viscious, rather than the other way around. Yes, it was spurred by an affair of the heart rather than of the mind, but it was a betrayal all the same.

I started going through my "My Anime" list, trying to think of any significant betrayals that might fit the list. I was surprised at how few I came up with.

Le Chevalier D'Eon has a few, but the most notable being spoiler[Teillagory]. The way the last few episodes played out was unexpected, convoluted, and sad.

Fate/Zero has spoiler[Kirei Kotomine].

Gurren Lagann has spoiler[Rossiu], though you could see it coming if you were paying attention.

Legend of the Legendary Heroes has spoiler[Sion Astarl].

Magic Knight Rayearth has spoiler[Princess Emeraude].

My-Otome has spoiler[Nina Wáng].

Those are the ones that came to mind as I was skimming my list. Not that many when you consider how many titles I've seen, though I'm sure my examples are far from exhaustive.

Rayearth: Did CLAMP hire Vince Russo to write spoiler[Emeraude's heel turn]?

Fate/Zero: That show was a prequel to Stay Night. If Kirei didn't do the things he did in Zero, it would fudge up the story.

Gungrave: Much of the story was retconned as a prequel to the games and episode 1. If Brandon wasn't spoiler[killed off midway], he wouldn't become Beyond the Grave and episode 1/the games would be rendered invalid.

Zetabag wrote:

uh, I don't see how Vicious betraying Spike or even how far he took it are considered out of left field. Quite frankly I wasn't really suprised by how far he took it.

As for Gendo, I'm pretty sure it was made blatantly clear that he had ulterior motives around 1/3 of the way through the series.

Anyway, one of my favorite betrayals out of left field was in Mobile Suit Gundam Movie I, spoiler[where Char betrayed Garma ] (assuming you didn't see the TV series first). Now if you saw the TV series then it was not really out of left field since he did make a previous attempt in one of the episodes that got cut out of the movie.

spoiler[Char's] betrayal is really expected to be honest. spoiler[He never really liked the current or even potential Zeon ideals. Even in Char's Counterattack, he was playing New Zeon like a fiddle.]

Snomaster1 wrote:

I heard a lot about "Revolutionary Girl Utena" and I'm not sure I like what I've been hearing about it. A magazine article I once read about this series seemed to sum this show up nicely. It called the show a "jerk-heavy" series. And this recent list with it at number one,seems,to me at least,a show that I'd be queasy about watching.
From what I've heard about the show,the characters are just so nasty,especially to each other that I question why I'd ever want to watch the series in the first place. This seems like such a cruel,nasty show that I'd wonder why anyone would find it entertaining in the first place.

The series itself is a colorful allegory to growing up and that murky period between being and adult and a child. Probably watching it was an early teen would make more sense. At the end of the day, everyone out in the world is an asshole.

Ugh, now you've spoiled me about Kyubey as well D:

Clyde_Cash wrote:

Rayearth: Did CLAMP hire Vince Russo to write spoiler[Emeraude's heel turn]?

Fate/Zero: That show was a prequel to Stay Night. If Kirei didn't do the things he did in Zero, it would fudge up the story.

Gungrave: Much of the story was retconned as a prequel to the games and episode 1. If Brandon wasn't spoiler[killed off midway], he wouldn't become Beyond the Grave and episode 1/the games would be rendered invalid.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Just because the plot required these people to do the things they did, it doesn't absolve them from their actions inside the story itself. That's like saying that Tolkien required Smeagol to betray Frodo so it's not really a betrayal. Yes, it is. The instances I gave were, IMO, all betrayals; some were only shocking to the other characters, while others were shocking to the audience as well, but they were all betrayals.

But, as I said, I'm not sure what your point was to begin with.

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

octopodpie wrote:

ValkyrieZeroZeroOne wrote:

Does the author of the article have any references to confirm that this was ever their intention? Because if not, this article reeks of poor journalism.

Sorry, that's entirely uncalled for. I was always under the impression that Gendo grafted "Adam" into his hand to start the new world with Rei who, yes is a spoiler[clone of Yui]. I felt much of it was symbolic, with Gendo becoming part of "Adam" and Rei fusing with spoiler[Lillith], two beings who in Judaism mythos, were husband and wife. Just like in that story, Gendo is rejected.

I am always open to further explaining my reasoning or interpretations, so let's not throw stones around.

Until now, I was not aware of the story behind this mythos. Thank you for making the reference, as I think it is quite relevant and useful to know for the purpose of analysis. I certainly agree that the attack was uncalled for.

Eva draws a lot from Christian mythology as well as symbolism from Kabbalah. The End of Eva sequence with Gendo plays out pretty similar to the Lilith story. There's a reason Lilith is drawn as a symbol for the feminist movement: she refused to submit to Adam sexually, and in status.

Here's the Wikipedia article about the original story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

Snomaster1 wrote:

I heard a lot about "Revolutionary Girl Utena" and I'm not sure I like what I've been hearing about it. A magazine article I once read about this series seemed to sum this show up nicely. It called the show a "jerk-heavy" series. And this recent list with it at number one,seems,to me at least,a show that I'd be queasy about watching.
From what I've heard about the show,the characters are just so nasty,especially to each other that I question why I'd ever want to watch the series in the first place. This seems like such a cruel,nasty show that I'd wonder why anyone would find it entertaining in the first place.

I am currently watching Utena in my anime club. Well, we were, the final arc lost out in voting this semester but I'll finish it up with a friend. Utena can be annoying, true, there are many jerks(with a variety of underlying causes) in the series with characters doing things you'll more than likely consider really stupid(but you'll understand why they do them.) As my friend says "Every single character in this show has severe mental problems." Also it does a great job of building on it's characters and has just as many, possibly more, ways to relieve the audience's annoyances as it does creating them. Utena is very much the show about the light and dark sides of life and it explores them both to great effect with characters whose motivations range from somewhat petty to grandiose and it all, so far, has been merging quite nicely. I don't yet know what kind of head the various plots and characters involved are coming to but it's been a worthy trip so far.

Furthermore, Girl A and Girl B are the best Greek chorus ever(in a style reminiscent of classic shadow theater), spoiler[a rich b**** becomes a cow] and.....surfing elephants.....

Now, I must drop some acid and listen to Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku again.

octopodpie wrote:

ValkyrieZeroZeroOne wrote:

Does the author of the article have any references to confirm that this was ever their intention? Because if not, this article reeks of poor journalism.

Sorry, that's entirely uncalled for. I was always under the impression that Gendo grafted "Adam" into his hand to start the new world with Rei who, yes is a spoiler[clone of Yui]. I felt much of it was symbolic, with Gendo becoming part of "Adam" and Rei fusing with spoiler[Lillith], two beings who in Judaism mythos, were husband and wife. Just like in that story, Gendo is rejected.

I am always open to further explaining my reasoning or interpretations, so let's not throw stones around.

I think you're overestimating how much of Evangelion's religious imagery is actually symbolic, though. Really, it's just an intricate way of theme naming: they called the giant humans they cloned from Adam Evangelion because Eve was made from Adam's rib. You wouldn't thus say Evangelion Unit 1 was Adam's wife (edit: not least of all because Eva-01 is cloned from Lilith).

The point is, nowhere in the show was it ever said that Gendo wanted to create a new human race. The actual case is that he wanted to retrieve his dead wife's soul - nothing more, nothing less. To this end he required Lilith's soul, currently residing in Rei III, and Adam's body, currently residing in his hand, because of metaphysical alien mechanics.

A far more clear-cut example of "symbolism before plot" is the not-uncommon misconception that "Shinji and Asuka are the new Adam and Eve", which sort of works if you just look at the fact that only the two of them are there after everyone has died, but which is incontrovertibly denied by the fact that, as mentioned by the only characters who know what's going on, anyone can come back to life if they want to.

jymmy wrote:

octopodpie wrote:

ValkyrieZeroZeroOne wrote:

Does the author of the article have any references to confirm that this was ever their intention? Because if not, this article reeks of poor journalism.

Sorry, that's entirely uncalled for. I was always under the impression that Gendo grafted "Adam" into his hand to start the new world with Rei who, yes is a spoiler[clone of Yui]. I felt much of it was symbolic, with Gendo becoming part of "Adam" and Rei fusing with spoiler[Lillith], two beings who in Judaism mythos, were husband and wife. Just like in that story, Gendo is rejected.

I am always open to further explaining my reasoning or interpretations, so let's not throw stones around.

You wouldn't thus say Evangelion Unit 1 was Adam's wife (edit: not least of all because Eva-01 is cloned from Lilith).

I wouldn't say that, but I do think it's interesting that humanity is supposed to be created from Lilith as Kaworu calls the humans Lilim, which if you continue with the symbolic implications, would mean that Humanity are the actual demons. I don't know how much credit one should give Anno for throwing that in there, but given the actions of most the character's in the series, doesn't seem like too inaccurate of a commentary on human nature.

It's never explicitly stated by Gendo that he wants to create the new world with Yui but it seems like a pretty easy conclusion to come to given how closely the interaction mirrors the Adam-Lilith story. Gendo and Yui were husband and wife as were Adam and Lilith. Gendo approached Rei-Yui-Lilith with Adam. Of all the places he could of put his hand (Adam) into her body, say her heart for example, he puts his hand (Adam) into her womb. She rejects him. It was hard for me to ignore the sexual implications there, similar to the original story.

It always seemed logical to me that Rei was Gendo's fill in for Yui and that's all he saw her as and he intended to go into this end-of-the-world scenario with her with just the two of them surviving. He didn't expect the Lilith part of Rei to reject him.

Juno016 wrote:

Tsubasa is still pretty fresh in my mind.
You think one main characters has a bunch of dark secrets and is worth suspicion, and then one of the other main characters just goes and spoiler[snacks on his eye] before leaving the group and going off on his own to collect the feathers for his own purposes...

That's one that I thought of, heh.. And technically in Tsubasa spoiler[Fai] after he goes spoiler[killing Sakura].

CLAMP series are full of betrayls...

spoiler[Ashura] in RGVeda, to the side-swapers of X depending on anime/manga, to spoiler[Princess Emeraude] in Magic Knight Rayearth.

Lady Multi wrote:

spoiler[Ashura] in RGVeda, to the side-swapers of X depending on anime/manga, to spoiler[Princess Emeraude] in Magic Knight Rayearth.

I find spoiler[Kendappa's reveal of being the last general, on the side of Taishakuten and her killing Soma to be be even more shocking]

octopodpie wrote:

I wouldn't say that, but I do think it's interesting that humanity is supposed to be created from Lilith as Kaworu calls the humans Lilim, which if you continue with the symbolic implications, would mean that Humanity are the actual demons. I don't know how much credit one should give Anno for throwing that in there, but given the actions of most the character's in the series, doesn't seem like too inaccurate of a commentary on human nature.

It's never explicitly stated by Gendo that he wants to create the new world with Yui but it seems like a pretty easy conclusion to come to given how closely the interaction mirrors the Adam-Lilith story. Gendo and Yui were husband and wife as were Adam and Lilith. Gendo approached Rei-Yui-Lilith with Adam. Of all the places he could of put his hand (Adam) into her body, say her heart for example, he puts his hand (Adam) into her womb. She rejects him. It was hard for me to ignore the sexual implications there, similar to the original story.

It always seemed logical to me that Rei was Gendo's fill in for Yui and that's all he saw her as and he intended to go into this end-of-the-world scenario with her with just the two of them surviving. He didn't expect the Lilith part of Rei to reject him.

I certainly think your interpretation is valid, but I don't actually think it is right. For one thing, you're forgetting Shinji. I'm certain Yui (in whatever state she was in after being absorbed into Eva01) wanted him to survive, and I think this feeling is also represented in the Rei-clones, though probably only (largely?) subconsciously. And, since Rei and Lilith are somehow connected, Lilith is also aware of Shinji. It is possible that Gendo didn't think that part through, but Gendo certainly was aware -- and in fact counted on -- Yui responding to Shinji (which happens in the very first episode, and it is clear that Gendo expected it).

Adam making contact with Lilith apparently triggers 3rd Impact, but then there's the Human Instrumentality Project, which also (by Gendo's direct manipulation) involves Shinji, as the (only acceptable) pilot for Eva01. Gendo subverted Seele's intentions regarding the project, yet in the end his own intentions were denied. While you may be right in what he wanted in the end, I still don't think that Gendo wanted to be left with just Yui to create a new race; despite how Gendo acted around Shinji, I doubt very much that he actually wanted to lose him. I think he merely wanted to be with Yui again, and that mattered more than anything else, but that doesn't mean that he had no interest in Shinji's well-being, only that it was a lower priority for him than reuniting with Yui. It was, it would seem, NOT a lower priority for Yui, and thus she (or perhaps Lilith) rejected Gendo.

The fun thing about NGE is that there are several ways to interpret things. We *do* know that Anno has stated that much of his Christian symbolism was included "because it was cool". There may have been additional reasons, but I think the idea that the whole Lilith-Adam story is reflected by what happened in NGE is a conclusion that the evidence can't fully support.

jymmy wrote:

I think you're overestimating how much of Evangelion's religious imagery is actually symbolic, though. Really, it's just an intricate way of theme naming: they called the giant humans they cloned from Adam Evangelion because Eve was made from Adam's rib. You wouldn't thus say Evangelion Unit 1 was Adam's wife (edit: not least of all because Eva-01 is cloned from Lilith).

"Evangelion" and "Eve" are not directly related other than starting the same. Eve is a proper name, derived from Hebrew, while Evangelion is the Greek word commonly rendered "gospel" (good news) via Olde English.