Forum - View topic

ANNCast - Super Game Show Bros 3

I can't speak to that game specifically. I haven't played it. I would agree though that Japan certainly has somewhat more female leads but as a trade off, those female leads, while sometimes still more or less strong, are also fairly problematic for the reasons you touched on.

What I find frustrating is when people like TitanXL insist that Japan doesn't have any such problems. That's the main claim I'm trying to combat here.

I can't speak to that game specifically. I haven't played it. I would agree though that Japan certainly has somewhat more female leads but as a trade off, those female leads, while sometimes still more or less strong, are also fairly problematic for the reasons you touched on.

ikillchicken wrote:

I can't speak to that game specifically. I haven't played it. I would agree though that Japan certainly has somewhat more female leads but as a trade off, those female leads, while sometimes still more or less strong, are also fairly problematic for the reasons you touched on.

Of course they are problematic, but I'll take "existing and problematic" over "basically non existent and REALLY problematic".

Zac mentioned the "Male Gaze" issue earlier. And it certainly is a problem, but its also really easy to criticize that. Anyone can complain about the Male Gaze in say, Dead or Alive Xtreme (which is basically Male Gaze in videogame form), the hard part is dealing with the more subtle, pervasive, insidious issues of characterization and agency.

This isn't "apologia", just a recognition of how things stand at the moment.

When this came up in the podcast I immediately started thinking about the Arland Atelier games.

merr wrote:

The Arland games aren't much better. Yes, the female leads go out exploring on their own and whatnot, but, again, a key feature of the battle system involves "protecting" women (though as in Ar Tonelico, other females can be the "protector" sometimes).

This is an interesting point, but I could argue that this is because the alchemist characters are really your trump card and the party knows it so there's no sexist agenda here, it's just common sense to protect someone who can, you know, revive you if you get your face clawed off by a dragon. Also, as ShinnFlower mentioned, you can have a party where other female characters are doing the protecting, not male characters. That said, yeah, still the fact that the mechanics work as they do rather than allowing anyone to cover anyone, may be saying something.

Fencedude5609 wrote:

Of course they are problematic, but I'll take "existing and problematic" over "basically non existent and REALLY problematic". Zac mentioned the "Male Gaze" issue earlier. And it certainly is a problem, but its also really easy to criticize that. Anyone can complain about the Male Gaze in say, Dead or Alive Xtreme (which is basically Male Gaze in videogame form), the hard part is dealing with the more subtle, pervasive, insidious issues of characterization and agency. This isn't "apologia", just a recognition of how things stand at the moment.

I completely agree with most of what you're saying here. I'm just not sure where you get that western characters are generally more problematic.

HitokiriShadow wrote:

Final Fantasy 13 Final Fantasy 13-2 Tales of Xillia Tales of Graces F Tales of Vesperia Atelier Rorona Atelier Totori Atelier Meruru Atelier Ayesha Ar Tonelico 1 Ar Tonelico 2 Ar Tonelico 3 Mana Khemia 1 Mana Khemia 2 Hyper Dimension Neptunia Hyper Dimension Neptunia 2 Hyper Dimension Nepunia V Valkyria Chronicles Wild Arms 3 Star Ocean: Til The End of Time

You're just listing every JRPG out there with female characters. I don't know that most of those have especially strong female characters. In fact, as merr just pointed out, some of those games are quite sexist in their portrayal of women.

When you make sexist comments like judging girls for how they dress as the key point of your argument, then yes, I will call you out on it.

For example: I got a pretty good lul when the dude a couple pages back said the Atleier girl was a SUPER GREAT CHARACTER and cited her ability to get into a lesbian relationship as evidence. Like, dude, I never played those games and I'm sure they're fine, but I will bet my life that the relationship question is about as frank and gripping a portrayal of a homosexual relationship as your average girl-on-girl porn.

Japan, almost despite itself, actually manages to put out games with strong female leads. Yeah, the costume design is fetishized, and you can make hay out of what the actual intent was, but in the end, Atelier Totori is the story of a girl who wants to be an Adventurer, and the trials she and her friends undergo on the way there. She makes it on her own merits, by her own strength.

And hell, in Atelier Meruru she can even spoiler[end up in a relationship with Mimi]

Its not perfect, but by god its something.

What inference am I suppose to draw from your "And hell," followed by "It's not perfect, but by god it's something" other than "this is supporting evidence to prove my point"?

ikillchicken wrote:

I completely agree with most of what you're saying here. I'm just not sure where you get that western characters are generally more problematic.

Re-read that first line of his post (and think back to that little exchange between you two that led to the listing of games). I think that's where he's getting it.

I'm afraid you're missing my point. I understand the first part of his assertion: That there are more female characters in Japanese games. I think that's true to a moderate extent. But that wasn't all. How did he put it? He'll take "more frequent and problematic" over "less frequent and REALLY problematic".

The implication there is that not only are female characters in western games less common, they're also more problematic, even more so than the average Japanese game character. That's what I'm questioning.