Forum - View topicNEWS: 11 Arrested in Japan for Uploading via Share Program
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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I know this is sort of a bitch thing to do, but the write up on this would be tremendous. I may come back and do one proper, but that depends on how much work I have tonight and tomorrow.
I just must say, that logical sense and financial sense has been touted throughout this thread is laughable. However I see little of both, particularly the latter. I wish and pray that some people will educate themselves before they spread their ignorance across the internet. Also the doubling "law" (just to respond to the latest post) is complete BS. If you got that from some kind of teacher then they should have added a huge caveat on that. The only real "law" of doubling that is accurate in what it claims is the law of 72. |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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Have you ever thought that they are taking a hit just to get you to shop at their store? Business do it all the time, my store is no exception there.
And nope that is the price I paid was $59.99 - $6.50 as that is how much it cost to get that item, thus box set markups are really, really low. Perhaps in the days of singles it was different but the demands for cheaper DVDs have made all of them marked up less. (like only making a $1 off of a $9.99 DVD.) Law of doubling doesn't apply to everything it's just a rough estimate of what happens. As that doesn't occur in other big items either, like say TV's or large Appliances. Those are usually sold near or at cost, not quite DVD levels (as I get some discount on them.) it's more I won't get any discount at all. Edit: Had time to look over some of my old college work, yeah " Law of Doubling" is BS although I'm sure every retailer would wish that it was true. Markup is a percentage and if there was a "law of doubling" it would always be 100%, thus the anime DVDs at work wouldn't be $59.99 they'd be closer to $90 or $100 if that was true, obviously it is not. Last edited by LordRedhand on Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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DVDs are merchandise. But for some reason, people continually split this from the "other stuff". Why, because the DVD plastic isn't molded to look like a Naruto character?
You're doing what most people here do in believing every single title needs to support itself. Doesn't work this way and it's never worked this way. Because the "Pokemon, Naruto, and DB"-type titles have made money, this means other titles don't have to. So why are they made then? To find the next "Pokemon, Naruto, or DB"-type tentpole title. Look at any entertainment industry and you'll see this same approach taken, especially in movies.
From other titles which are making money.
Both, because the profits of one definitely made it possible to produce them, and even more. Or does $2.8 Billion seem like it's not enough?
Not true. The focus here is on the pay to view business model which the entertainment industry thinks it can continually carry into the digital era. The IP rights still exist, but are now challenged because the IP owners want to triple+ dip for the viewing when knowing merchandise is the ticket. Bootleg DVDs are not the same as a fan sub site. Understand this to know why these 11 shouldn't have been arrested in the first place.
This "monopoly" tactic is applied to any product sold in a market place, including (but not limited to): soap, french fries, socks, toothpaste, cars, and cereal. EVERY business wants to be the "monopoly" such that it guarantees profits. Competition makes price gouging impossible, though it does often incite price fixing. And those who produce items from copyright works can't do so without a license first. Licensing to make a product is not the dispute here and it has never been the dispute here.
When Bandai comes and says "We made a killing off The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya merchandise, so toss up another Gundam movie and no, we're not giving you extra so you can pay your employees better and if you don't like it, we'll take our business elsewhere."
No, it doesn't. VIEWING Gundam now belongs to everyone. Making Gundam merchandise still requires a license. Oh, and this includes those DVDs. I want to stress something extremely important here. I'm very opposed to the licensing fees for those who distribute DVDs because it's completely unfair to all those who are in this market. I would much rather see a ROR (return on receipt) approach in that if 10,000 DVDs are sold, then x% is returned based on the sales. DVDs don't carry the same weight as other merchandise, as LordRedHand tried to elude to. With so little markup, the DVD industry literally set itself up to fail. We're now seeing this failure happening. Note: The ROR model is used by our theater industry. Imagine how much ticket prices would be if it ran off the same system as the DVD model does. $50? I'd venture to say it would be close to $100.
Again, sitting next the the DVD copy of Demonbane. Since this was skipped over the last time I said it, I'll clarify: Where are the DVDs we've come to expect after buying the merchandise for the series? I own several figures from DVDs that never made it to the US. I'm guessing it's because these series have little chance of recapturing even 10% of the revenue necessary to break even. And no, not even One Piece has enough return to cover the licenses of every title distributors want to bring over. So, to the 20 fans (myself included) who are asking for Demonbane, it's going to be a long, long time before it's brought here, if at all.
This law doesn't apply to DVDs, because retailers don't get the option to mark up the price as it can for other merchandise. The reason is because retailers are paying damn near what we pay, which is why they need to sell thousands every week in order to see a reason to buy more. Selling 100s of DVD a week isn't cutting it anymore, and retailers are cutting back in major ways. They've no choice, especially since no consumer is going to buy a DVD for $50. |
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Cosplaybunny
 Posts: 224 |
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I was working from your chart. Your chart separates DVDs and merchandise. If you want to pool them together, the point still stands.
The studio really expects Monster to be the next Pokemon? There are certain "prestige" titles you may work on that you may lose a little or break even, but those are usually to earn acclaim, and hopefully, future profits.
There's something called opportunity cost. There are a finite number of computers, animators, hours in a day. It's not always possible to do everything. You have to choose: are you going to animate Monster, or are you going to animate One Piece?
I know. It was a hypothetical.
Triple dip? How? I've only had to pay for my One Piece DVDs once, and I can watch them as many times as I want. And they literally KNOW merchandise is the ticket? The marketing data proves that Haibane Renmei merchandise will turn a profit?
Monopolistic competition is a specific economic term used to describe a market where there is no intellectual property rights. It is what will happen if all IP laws are thrown out.
Yes it has been. Copyright has been called an absolute evil, worthless, and outmoded concept that needs to be re-evaluated, right in this thread.
This calls for industry reform, not wanton piracy.
I would prefer it if profits were returned to the studios as well, but flat-fee licensing has its advantages as well. If a show is a big, huge hit, the return on profits won't be as high. But for something like Heat Guy J, the flat fee gives the studio some insurance to make up for a massive flop. For return on receipt, are you talking about the rate on return? A certain amount of profit returned to the studio based on how many DVDs are sold over a period of time? Are you suggesting that the ROR model should be used for merchandise? So each stuffed Pikachu returns a 25% profit back to the studio that animated the series? That's going to be very difficult to negotiate.
So in other words: they don't exist. I'm not sure why you'd expect a series to be licensed just because some merchandise was purchased? Unless you purchased from a US-based retailer, your purchase probably looks like just another Japanese one from a sales-figure point of view.
When a series doesn't make money, it doesn't get released. This is the same pressure the studios will face. No project will be undertaken that they know will lose money. Nobody expected Heat Guy J would be a flop. They expected it to make money. But once the insurance from licensing and ad revenue is no longer a factor, and you live and die based on DVDs and toy models, where is the incentive to produce Monster?
So move to streaming, to iTunes, to Xbox Live, to Hulu. Make more merchandise. Sell soundtracks and figures and sketches. I think all of this should be done and to a certain extent it already is. The industry needs to do this. But piracy and the dissolution of intellectual property is not the answer. |
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Annf
Posts: 578 |
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I swear, you must be doing this on purpose, PJ. 
The poster you quoted listed late-night niche adult titles. Your examples are all mass-market children's shows. You don't make titles of the first type when trying to score a hit of the second type. They're completely different markets. You also don't make titles if you are 100% certain they're going to lose money. Your point about only a few titles making money (throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks) is of course true, but the poster you quoted was replying to a hypothetical scenario in which pre-recorded video media no longer makes money at all. Since DVD/BD sales are the lion's share of income for late-night shows (as well as OVAs, obviously), if that market dried up, so would the late-night time slot, leaving mostly just children's shows (which make money from toys and actual third-party advertising)--basically we'd be back in the 70s and 80s. (Some people might be happy with that.  )
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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The kids tv model is kids watch the show buy the toys. Kids who already have the toys watch to see their toys in action so new toys are added so the kids have to annoy mommy & daddy to buy those for them. Kids cereal & snacks either pay to have the show made or pay to run commercials so the kids will whine to mommy or daddy to buy them that stuff also. DVDs are just icing on the cake in that scenario. So when a fan shares the file minus the commercials, the products aren't pitched, plus the people sharing are probably old enough to not be interested in the stuff originally pitched in the commercials, although they might rabidly buy the toys. Moving out of that market, there's a variety of scenarios the single model concept everyone here keeps throwing around totally misses. There are shows which probably made their money while they aired or were in theaters so the home market is just icing on the cake & there are those that didn't do so well the video market hopefully allows them time to recoup their losses. There's the Pay-per-view market & the direct to video markets where all the money has to come off the sales of the dvds. Merchandise is merchandise. No ione really thought much about merchandising outside of kid titles until Star Wars showed people the kind of money that could be made, but not every piece of merchandise sells. I recall a show on the Beatles where it was discussed that someone bought up the sheets the band slept on & tried to sell 1-inch squares to people, but that didn't have a market. Not every merchandise item is a winner. We've all seen mark-downs, I'm sure.
My point is you seem to feel actual merchandise is dead & that it's a good thing. 1)-There will always be special deluxe sets 2)-There will always be people who want that hard copy. The issue is will it get to a point where there won't be enough? Probably, but is that necessarily a good thing? Is your vision of the future all that great? There are things that have been lost I say are sad. There was a time when we had fairly liberal return policies at stores, but for this or that reason they went away. I knew a guy who bragged he was the reason for Lane Bryant dropping their policy of exchanging anything at any time because his wife would wear an outfit for 3 yrs, it would wear out & he would take it back as being disatisfied with it. So everyone who maybe would buy something, keep it in the closet unworn for 6 months, & then decide they were never wearing it & appreciated the right to return that unused product lost out to jerks like my co-worker. So 25 yrs from now, maybe some people will miss not having to download everything just like some people miss vinyl records.
I thought everyone knew each store doesn't pay the same for every item they sell. Walmart, anyone? The bigger the retailer, the more that retailer can say "I demand a discount because I can move XX product. Don't give us the discount, we'll sell your competitor" This is the exact model warehouse stores like Costco use-buying in lots to get the best deal. TRSI offers a 25% discount on most manga daily, but not all. There are some companies (like Go) that they sell full price because they haven't cut a deal, but I believe Go has a discount at Amazon. Sometimes that's the retailer. People would regularly whine at Broccoli panels why did Walden get their titles before everyone else. Broccoli reps patiently apologized, but said in order to get their books (being a small publisher) into a national book chain, they had to sign an exclusivity contract allowing the chain to sell their books 3 months earlier than other sellers. Often when there is a sale, that is when the manufacturer has granted a deeper than usual discount under the plan more the retailer will move more of the product. Not that this applies to the original thread. Once more, the people arrested knew they were breaking the law & there was consequences for that. "I don't agree with the law so you can't punish me for violating it" is not a defense. Last edited by CCSYueh on Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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Thank you, CCSYueh for that last post.
Indeed different manufacturer's get me different discount rates but what I was trying to point out was the fact that the distributor/studio make more money off DVD sales then they do toys, just by base numbers that they sell the unit. $50 DVD versus $5 toy? And in theory if more DVDs are sold at the stores then the price of them could go down, because of demand. Sad that in this day and age, it's the "anime fans" that I struggle to convince to buy an anime DVD. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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No problem.
That is also another kettle of fish, though-merchandising. Holding up sales titles showing anime merchandise sells far more than dvds is ridiculous. In case you didn't know, not all charity fundraisers are 100% charity. We have people who stand outside stores with a little red bucket who are paid a salary out of that bucket. There are some fundraising groups who skim half or more as their fair share for their work. You could actually be donating only 10% to that charity And the same applies to merchandising deals. When you see that official "NFL" sticker, you do know the TEAM isn't getting all that money. A certain amount goes to the seller as profit (what you paid less dealer price). The manufacturer's wholesale price is his costs plus a profit. That cost probably includes the licensing fee unless he's a subcontractor just making the item for the person who did license the item from the license holder. The license fee is all the profit the license holder makes off the item. If it's a big name license like Star Wars, percentages might be involved, but overall, that $10 plushie IF it's officially licensed & not a bootleg probably nets the studio $1 if that much. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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With the downloading issue, they probably have downloaded the anime so the omly money they need to spend is on merchandise.
Review my other post on how I broke down $2.8 billion dollars in terms of episodes. It's obviously inaccurate, but the analysis does not include merchandise sales of other countries. I would say the United States has paid for more series than they're receiving based on the data.
This "tiny little market" accounts for 90% of anime revenue.
Note the chart title. It would be nice to know the global amount, but the sales data seems quite elusive.[/quote] So while you're gloating over those dollar amounts, again, in America that represents a contract an American license holder has made with a company to produce merchandise for the US market. The US market's idea of merchandising is largely toys aimed at kids so those sales are likely YuGiOh Cards, Naruto Dolls, etc. Stuff that doesn't have squat to do with the vast majority of anime titles marketed in the US. Those toys reflect the US licensee getting a cut & then maybe the Japanese studio getting a piece. How can you imagine they're making so much when common logic would suggest otherwise? A larger studio such as Toei might get a bigger slice, but a smaller studio is more likely lucky to get 50 cents or less per figure |
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