Forum - View topicDo you think downloading fansubs is wrong?
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Wrong: Fansubbers don't sell anything. Those would be bootleggers, and they are wrong, and nobody support them.
There are plenty of good torrent programs with no spyware, or even EULAs. Find them, stick with them. Avoid those that add spyware and worms. It's really not hard to do.
Being a fan and supporting the industry are mutually exclusive. It's not your place to decide who is a fan and who isn't. Being a fan is about how much you care, not how much you spend. Basically, if you're the sort of person who buys the DVDs of every show that you watch on TV, then you're the sort of person who should buy the DVDs for every anime you watch. If you're the sort of person who only watches their favorite tv shows when they happen to come on tv, and either tivo it and skip the comercials, go to get food during comercials, or channel surf during comercials, then you're the sort of person who can probably stick to fansubs, it's all the same level of "support" and morality.
I don't understand why people make this sort of distinction. Practically everything gets liscensd eventually these days, so it's not like a series that hasn't yet been liscenesed WON'T be liscensed in a few weks or months anyways (like Bleach for example). Also, if a series is liscensed, it doesn't mean that they'll be producing episodes right away, it could be months yet before the first ep comes out in the US, and years before they catch up to the Japanese release, so why should people stop watching the version they've been watching and sit on their thumbs for six months to a year? "Liscensed" is just a word. It really has no impact on the end user, so why should it have any impact on what shows they want to watch? |
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Samurai Jack
 Posts: 26 Location: CT, USA |
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I went to a con in July, and was in a panel discussion with one of the co-founders, and the discussion of fansubs came up. He said he likes them, and appreciates the community, but it's hard for them to really take that stance...kind of a catch 22....he just asked that industry people like him appreciate it if fans stop downloading once series get liscensed. That made an impression on me, and I understand where he is coming from and respect. It's a personal choice. And I'm an easy going guy. If you like to dl a lot of fansubs, even after being liscensed, alrighty then. : ) |
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Siilent
Posts: 184 Location: Canada |
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I downloaded all of the episodes of Fruits Basket. This was my real introduction to real anime. I loved it, so I supported it and bought it online. The package actually just came in today, so I'm looking forward to re-watching it.
Many of the real anime shows don't appear on TV where I am in Canada, so I'm not sure about that part of this discussion. My stance on this, is that if I love the anime endlessly, I will definately support it. I will by the boxed set online like I did with FB. I did download other anime, but I stopped with a few of them, completely unintrigued. I will not hide the fact that I'm not buying a boxed set of Chobits after seeing about five or six episodes of it, because I didn't like it. I will support what I like, and if I don't like something, I won't. In my opinion, if you love something, you should definately spend the money on it, because it's worth that and more to you. I download, as many do, and we are all (hopefully) aware that it's wrong. But, as long as you buy it afterwards, I consider it alright. (Now, before you jump at my words and hiss at every sentance I say ((it's happened on every board I've been to)), I'll remind everyone that it's the way I feel. No one else has to feel the same.) |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Fair enough. The viewing public, like me, appreciate when the industry doesn't try to get us to pay them for services that we don't need them to provide (like dubbing, translating, and packaging DVDs), just because they've called "dibs" on our favorite series. 
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Samurai Jack
Posts: 26 Location: CT, USA |
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Hey, I like to dl fansubs, too, it's real nice to have a DVD collection, though. : -p I think fansubs don't really detract from sales too much, and again, can actually help build up a fan base. Quite a lot of people who dl fansubs buy lots of official releases, it seems. I thinking fansubbing isn't quite bad, in general. Now, downloading episodes taken straight from a DVD or burning DVDs is a different story, that's for sure. |
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Nirvana
Posts: 261 |
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Personally, I think dling fansubs is ok. I do it. I admit it... I jsut can't wait 6-12 months (or maybe longer) for it to finally show in america... but dling the OLD animes that have been licensed already, thats a whole different story...
On another note, I dont think I have a right to say anything. I've never bought a single anime. I've rented, I've borrowed, but never bought a single anime... I sort of feel guilty, but I mean, renting is still indirectly supporting them, right? =/ |
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GospelX
Posts: 185 Location: Ann Arbor, MI |
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Renting is, kind of, save for the fact that after the first seven rentals the rest of the money made off of a DVD becomes profit for the store.
It's always kind of a bother to see opinions like this. When it comes down to it, who is it going to hurt if you don't see a certain anime? Somehow this "wanting" thing places people above it all, so there's no issue with illegal activity but there is with spending a few hard earned dollars? Something's a bit off there. If you want to see a series and you can't afford it right now, there's absolutely nothing wrong with waiting until you can afford to rent/purchase it. Don't even try to convince yourself of otherwise. |
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Kusanagi_Kei
 Posts: 230 |
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To be honest, I think even though the question is really on the right or wrong aspect, there will always be the aspect of ethics (good or bad) that will come to play in determining the "right or wrong" of downloading fansubs. First of all, we all know that downloading is wrong; so there it is, it's wrong. Downloading is entirely wrong anyway. But taking it the way that many have discussed it (i.e. ignored the general fact that all downloading is wrong); then I have to say that downloading fansubs is more wrong than right. Like Starwind Armada had said, I think that downloading fansubs will have an severe impact on the person's judgment to actually purchase the official DVDs themselves. Downloading a fansub can really entirely eradicate the need to purchase the DVDs themselves because fansubs are literally a perfect copy of the shows. The picture is there, good quality, the sound is there, stereo and good quality, the original frame aspect is there, 4:3 or 16:9, they're watching the full image. No need to purchase any DVD. Once downloading a full/complete anime series, it will simply be spread around the world an odd 5,000 times in only 2 minutes. The fact is, the existence of fansubs would generally in the long term outlook, reduce the need to buy the official DVDs themselves. Because once the fansub is distributed even to 1 person in the entire world, they can easily spread it and pass it on to millions across the other side of the globe, and this would still continue for many years after the anime title has been licensed. Downloading fansubs has also good factors too. It could offer a sample of the anime series, either from the first episode or the full series. But people may want to download the entire series to gain a real sample of the anime (*cough* free-riding *cough*), because people want to watch the whole thing before deciding on the purchase. Fine. By all means do so, but I have to say that this really eliminates the need to purchase the series whether or not they liked it not. Once the entire series is downloaded into their system, they can choose to keep it or delete it, but in most cases people who can't afford DVDs simply back up the whole copy, or they may delete it, and should they want to watch it again, just download another copy LONG AFTER the title is licensed. So why are trailers out there then? I think trailers are there to give you a brief preview of the anime, a general feel of what it is like. And this could be used to help you decide on the purchase ALONG with reading reviews and descriptions of the titles yourselves. I'd say that the only defense for downloading fansubs is that they help promote unlicensed titles. That is all. For me, yes I do download fansubs, but very rare. The recent title I downloaded was "Battle Programmer Shirase", and that's it. I live in the UK, and I have no anime to watch here on TV or buy on DVD in local stores, and you may be thinking "how can you live without fansubs?" I buy the DVDs. I have lots and lots of friends who live in the USA or Europe, who just download fansubs and rarely buy DVDs. I ask them, "why don't you buy that anime series which you love and have on fansub (which you've backed up)?" They reply: yeah I'll buy it soon" or simply avoid the question by switching to another topic. But the thing is, they don't even buy the DVDs, not even 3 years after downloading (backing up) and loving the series. The title which I'm buying now is Scrapped Princess, and I've never watched that before in my life. I know well where to download a DVD rip or fansub of this title, but I choose not to because it was licensed years ago and I'm not going to opt for a TV low quality rip compared to the REAL DVD. The topic maybe about right or wrong, and I may have gone off topic there. Yes I think it's wrong. And this wrong is justified by the bad factors for the industry. For every one whole anime series you download, $0.10 goes out of the anime workers' pocket. Thousands of users are downloading at once in any given minute. Multiply this by $0.10 by a thousand, and $100 are going out of the industry every minute (providing that the downloader does not buy the DVD of the given anime title). Those who buy and/or download and buy (on an equal ratio) keep the anime industry alive by paying for the DVDs and thus the work of the anime studios to make up for the those who do not buy and only download. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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You, the viewer. Your world is a sadder place for not having seen something you wanted to see.
If you follow that mentality to it's logical conclusion then chances are that if you can't afford to buy a series on a whim, then when you CAN afford to buy the series that you want to watch now, there will be yet another series that you also want to watch, and you still won't have enough money for both, so it's a viscious cycle. Live within your means, buy what you want to buy, don't let which which shows you want to WATCH rule your descision on which shows you want to BUY. [quote]Downloading fansubs has also good factors too. It could offer a sample of the anime series, either from the first episode or the full series. But people may want to download the entire series to gain a real sample of the anime (*cough* free-riding *cough*), because people want to watch the whole thing before deciding on the purchase. Fine. By all means do so, but I have to say that this really eliminates the need to purchase the series whether or not they liked it not. Once the entire series is downloaded into their system, they can choose to keep it or delete it, but in most cases people who can't afford DVDs simply back up the whole copy, or they may delete it, and should they want to watch it again, just download another copy LONG AFTER the title is licensed. [quote] This is true, but so what? Let's be honest here, raise of hands people, how many of you purchase DVDs of EVERYTHING that you watch on tv? I'm not talking anime here, let's set that aside, I'm talking TV shows. How many of you watch Friends, Sienfeld, CSI, Law and Order, the Daily Show, Big Brother, whatever dramas, sitcoms, movies, or reality shows happen to be on tv? Of those shows, how many DVDs do you buy? Do you feel that every show you've ever watched on tv (that has a DVD available) has a compainion DVD on your shelf? 50%? 10%? 0%? Mine's close to 1%, as I have the Firefly set (to show some love) and the first season of Buffy, which I got as a gift once. I bet the national average is even lower than that, although I'm sure the average around here is at least slightly higher, maybe as much as 5%. So, of those people who have a 100% on that, who buy a DVD of EVERY show they watch, I fully expect them to buy a DVD for EVERY anime they watch as well. That's logical. For those people who only watch tv when it's on, especially for those who use Tivo to skip comcericals or who channel surf during them, you're doing no worse by treating anime the same way, and downloading it, watching it once (for free), and then moving on. Are you supporting the US anime industry that way? No, but neither are you partaking in any of their services. If you demand US dubbing, then by all means get the US DVD. If you demand special features, or if you find the quality of fansubs somehow not good enough for you, or if you tend to watch the same shows over and over again, then buy the DVD. If none of those particularly apply to you, then make the choice freely, either donate money to the company producing the anime, or don't. They don't DESERVE to have your money if they aren't providing you with a service that you need, any more than Warner Bros. DESERVES my money for the Smallville DVDs just because I watch the show on tv. And please, leave projected loss out of this. That money doesn't exist. If someone choose not to buy something then ZERO dollars and ZERO cents are lost because of it, because that money hasn't ben spent yet. You can't count fictional money as money that you SHOULD be making. |
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patch
 Posts: 677 Location: New York, NY |
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What do you think is one of the main sources for bootlegger's releases? 
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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A company can't exist if they don't provide a level of service that will be diverse enough to be useable and enjoyable by a majority rather than a minority. The company that produces the anime still makes no money for their production through a fansub but they do make money from the license and depend on that cashflow for future productions.
It's like walking up to an artist, telling them you love their work but will love it only so long as they give you their paintings for free. Why should you pay him after all? You don't require all the services he provided, he painted that sky with clouds, you don't need or want the clouds therefore his work and effort should be tossed aside and you should get what he produced for free. Why should you pay for a book as well? You don't need that cover or binding, forget the fact the author depends on those sales and future licenses of his work, after all in this day and age it's all about the great "me" and it seems most people want nothing more than everyone else to be their slaves. Everything for nothing, well it's a shame the world won't work that way. Will people stop downloading anime? Doubtful? Will they buy shows they downloaded and enjoyed? Many do, and that's a good thing. But the vultures of the world will do their best and continuing being "fans" that are unwilling to support what they are fans of. Of course people don't buy everything they see on TV, but those shows are paid for and licensed by the networks and their presence on the airwaves still pays those who produced it. Fansubs don't give anything back, and a great artist is still nothing without the support of the fans; emphasis on support. It does take some time for titles to make it our way, and some never do and honestly I don't have anything against downloading unlicensed titles. Honest truth is from an industry standpoint only titles that they can afford to license will be licensed and though that is at a high point now if fansubbing begins to have too large an impact the likely end result will be fewer licensed titles and folding companies and jobless employees because once again the fans want it all for nothing. It takes a little time, but it takes time so they can prep it for the enjoyment of as many people as possible, but yet it's wrong for them to do so because you don't want others to enjoy it cause they don't enjoy it in the language you do? Just wait a little bit, if you're really that impatient that you need to see it now and you can't go without an anime fix it might be time to invest in a few more hobbies. There's a larger world out there than what you see on that glass screen before you. Some serious courses in economics might be advised for some people and should probably be a full course in schools these days based on how little people really seem to understand it. It's never as simple as "I pay person A for object B". It may seem like a little now, but a little by alot translates to a heck of alot more and it all has an impact eventually. Not that many people in western society have much of an understanding of these things anymore, and those who do see the statistics and wonder just how close we are to the next 1930's only on a global scale. |
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GospelX
Posts: 185 Location: Ann Arbor, MI |
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[quote="Ohoni"]
But yeah, you will always be in an endless cycle of viewing/purchasing and wanting to see more. That happens even without money being involved. The main difference is the absence of the attitude to you have to see a series when you very clearly don't. It's just anime. It very likely may be worth the wait. And there are other ways to see a series rather than downloading it. Sometimes it airs on television. Sometimes it your friend might have it. Sometimes you can rent it. Sometimes it's on On Demand (for those of you lucky enough to have digital cable or live with people who can afford it...). There's always a way, and you don't have to resort to digisubs. Now I primarily say this because I don't like the attitude involved with many people downloading digisubs. "I don't have the money, but I just have to have to have to see this series." (And in some cases, they go out and buy a new hard drive to put series on.) Personally, I'm in favor of digisubs as a whole. If a series is currently airing in Japan, then it's like catching it on TV. I'm also in favor of digisubbing really old series that are unlikely to ever get licensed here (or even put on DVD in Japan). My problem comes from people who are circumventing the system and downloading licensed series that are currently available in the store because they "don't have the money" or "don't want to risk the money". That's a lame excuse in my book. Back for digisubs took off, we were limited to fansubs in all these cases. I never got into the fansubbing thing because I couldn't find any good distributors and didn't trust it. I actually knew a guy who made a profit off of dubbing tapes, which is why I never bought the "for cost" spiel. Whenever I was interested in a series, I'd look up all of the information I could on it before purchasing it. After all, you always want to make an educated purchase. These sorts of things led to my purchasing a number of series that I still love to this day. If you're willing to find and download something, then you obviously have the time to look up information about a series before buying it. Granted, gathering information does not necessarily mean you will like the product itself, but isn't that how it always goes with consumer goods? No matter how much I research a stereo, I will not know for sure how well it works for me. No matter what information I find out about a new restaurant down the street, I won't know if the food agrees with me until I eat it. I understand that perfectly, and I know that with digisubs you can skip right to that part. At the same time, though, isn't the risk part of it? Isn't it great when you get that new anime and you find out that the risk was completely worth the award? Sure, you end up not seeing everything, but you don't have to. Not every series is worth seeing anyway. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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DVD rips. You're right though, shut down the official US companies because they feed the bootleggers.
Most artists are not paid by the majority their viewing public. Most only get paid once for each work they produce.
Do you talk to your local librarian with that mouth?
As the anime I watch is in Japan. The point is that YOU are doing nothing to support any of the US shows you enjoy unless A: you're one of the very few Nielsens households in America, or B: you buy the DVDs. Otherwise you're just freeloading.
A great many great artists were poor, and that fed their creativity. Also, support and finacial support are two different things. I'm an artist myself, and a lot of my work I distribute for free, and I feel VERY supported by the dozens of people who compliment my work and give me moral support. I only ask for money when I do commisions, when I give creative control of my work over to another person instead of producing what I want to produce.
Look, if the US companies want to ignore those who download and enjoy fansubs, and produce a product aimed at dub fans, then that's their perogative. Maybe that'll get them more money, maybe it won't, who am I to judge? They can't aim a product at a different demographic and expect to just pick up mine in the crossfire though. I'd be paying too much for things I don't even care about, considerably later than if I just went with the competing product.
Orrrrr, you could just cut through all that and download the fansub. It's faster, more convenient, and accomplishes the same thing.
As I've said, I've never downloaded a series that's currently on the shelves, more through coincidence than moral stand. I just can't think of any series that I've not finished before it comes out over here. Now, I've certainly watched fansubs of series that have been LISCENSED well before the episodes I'm watching, but those individual episodes are still months, if not years away (such as Naruto). I think it's stupid to stop watching a show at episode 40 of 50 just because it's been liscensed, knowing full well that you won't be able to get ahold of the official release of episode 41 for another year or more.
"Finding and downloading" a series takes a grand total of a minute, maybe less. You just skim the list, pick the shows you want, and que them up to download. There's no real time investment at all. At the end of that, while you may enjoy, or hate, the wshow, you're at least guaranteed to have gotten your money's worth.
For you perhaps, but don't presume to project that attitude onto others. |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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It's not the US releases they rip
But if everyone got their painting for free no one would go to see their exhibition or no one would pay him for that art. If no one purchased his works he'd make no money, if he's an artist that licenses for print then no print company would license that work or would pay him less or license fewer simply because of a lack of demand caused by the availability of the item due to unlicensed distribution the artist see's nothing from.
Yes, and she loves me for it
Not true, those shows are paid for by the networks, who in turn receive money to pay for that license through the sales of advertizement slots. When the advertizing can't pay for the show then the shows get scrapped.
Do you rely on your art to pay your bills? Does your art cost millions of dollars to produce that it needs to make back? It's all relative, and does your art relate to the topic at hand? Many artists were poor, but times have changed and the greats likely wouldn't have been able to produce today like they did then.
Yes, look indeed, take an open perspective, you'll find it far more rewarding. Most anime's licensed that are available are available in both the subs and the dubs. It's a non-issue, there's no reason both can't be produced and whether you like it or not the economics of the situation still dictate that these companies need to make some money back in both Japan and the US. You really should take some steps to understand the fundamentals of economics and the world around you before you flip off the people trying to live in it because to you they're nothing but productive free slaves. |
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naruto01
 Posts: 10 Location: manila, konoha village |
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I really like anime, and i really love watching it, yes we do download fansubs here in our place, coz we cant afford to buy original anime dvds, it cost about 20$-25$ per dvd here for the original. and minimum wage here is about 6$ a DAY. yes downloading is wrong but what can we do? everybody knows that here in our place but nobody cares.
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