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EP. REVIEW: My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU Climax


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Delphisage



Joined: 10 Jul 2020
Posts: 55
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:50 pm Reply with quote
I just want to strangle Hachiman after this episode. He is falling into the same traps and learning nothing, only this time he gets rewarded for his behavior?! Why is this show so eager to fall off a cliff into schlock?
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Melicans



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 621
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:51 pm Reply with quote
I really feel for Iroha in this episode. In my mind (and given her apparent popularity among fans) her relationship with Hachiman feels the most natural, and the way they riff off each other shows a closeness that isn't necessarily apparent with Yukino or Yui. Course, once the opening was seen in the first episode it was apparent that she wouldn't figure too prominantly in the romantic side of things, and this episode just reinforces that spoiler. Doesn't make it any less sad for her.

Might just be my denseness but I haven't really sensed a romantic vibe between Yukino and Hachiman through the series, not until the hidden picture behind the teddy at least. Yui's feelings have been apparent from the beginning, but I've always felt that a potential driver behind them is guilt for her part in the events that led to the car crash that injured him. It leaves a ripple of doubt on how deep her love is actually rooted.

With how fine a tightrope Hachiman has to walk in these forthcoming episodes I really wonder if perhaps the reason the later books kept being delayed was down to the author really struggling to write himself out of a corner. Still, I'm interested to see it all resolved; not least because it'll be one of those rare series which are actually fully adapted to the end. Not many can say that.
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dm
Subscriber



Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 1386
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:51 pm Reply with quote
Iroha is so manipulative and contrived that I'm not sure what her feelings toward Hachiman are --- she may just be frustrated that she can't twist him around her finger with her "wiles", but also kind of happy there's someone who sees through her show but still appreciates her "mastery of technique".

I've always felt her commentary (both internal and that time she talked about how sometimes girls don't want to be viewed as sisters) were directed at Hachiman's situation with Yui and Yukino.

But I'm terribly literal-minded.
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Sisyphusson66



Joined: 04 Dec 2018
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:26 pm Reply with quote
This season, more so than the first two, is frustrating to watch. Not in a bad way, of course, but in the way that Yukino and Hachiman feel like they are falling into the same old patterns from the first and second season regarding their relationship. They are both leaning on their cold intellectualism that keeps them from having to confront their own selves and emotions, feeding off of the scraps of rigged and fraudulent claims and understandings. Their emotional weakness and malnourishment has left them vulnerable to misplaced trust.

Both of them take too much stock in Haruno's assessment of their relationship as co-dependency. Haruno, having been raised in the same household as Yukino, possesses the same emotional deficiency that Yukino has, which has evolved towards nihilism, acting as some sort of Nietzschean demon. Her confession of not being able to get drunk symbolizes, for me, her disconnect from humanity. Too much stock has been given to Haruno's opinion by the characters, and that may come down to a mix between their own emotional stagnation and Haruno's charisma.

Added to this misplaced faith, the prom situation is rigged against them from the start. As Hachiman points out, the adults in charge have no plans to let the prom happen, with negotiations in bad faith. Yukino's plan walks right into their trap, and would inevitably end in the prom not happening. Yukino is also doomed from the start by her own mistrust of herself as well. She doesn't trust her ability to work with her friends, nor does she grasp what it means to be independent. Again, Haruno acts as the example, and a poor one at that. Regardless of Hachiman's challenge, Yukino has low odds of success, and given her track record up to now, success was not going to happen.

The frustration in the series is represented by Iroha nicely. Iroha, Yui, and the audience can see where Yukino and Hachiman need to relate and move forward, leaving them in pain and sadness watching these two struggle towards the "genuine" while they are powerless to impact the outcome they can plainly see.
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Gho5tRUN3R



Joined: 21 Feb 2019
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:05 pm Reply with quote
Melicans wrote:
Might just be my denseness but I haven't really sensed a romantic vibe between Yukino and Hachiman through the series, not until the hidden picture behind the teddy at least.


Same. I think it's because of the shows shtick about showing your true self. You never see any hint of them showing romantic feelings for each other, other than some actions here and there. It always comes off as Yukino only helping Hachiman because his way of doing things went against her principles.

I know the show is hardcore pushing for these two to get together, but I really hope Iroha gets a satisfying ending with something. She's been such an interesting character and I really wish we got more of her. The way she chameleons herself in order to be perceived the way she wants has been fun to unpack. Doubly so when she doesn't do that around Hachiman and is able to talk to him plainly (other than doing her "don't ask me out (but maybe ask me out" routine that at this point is not getting anything new out of Hachiman since he's on autopilot with the same response to it).

Also I really love the reviews Richard is putting down. It's rare for me to not find something to criticize in critics or reviews, but these have been spot on for me. I'm glad he isn't falling for Haruno's BS where I feel like another reviewer might believe her manipulations to be some kind of cryptic words of wisdom.


Last edited by Gho5tRUN3R on Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Delphisage



Joined: 10 Jul 2020
Posts: 55
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:51 am Reply with quote
So, Richard, what score are you going to give the show if it turns out that it won't pay off in a way that doesn't come off as Yukino surrendering to Hachiman's will?
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:27 am Reply with quote
Delphisage wrote:
So, Richard, what score are you going to give the show if it turns out that it won't pay off in a way that doesn't come off as Yukino surrendering to Hachiman's will?

Do you honestly think that is how it is going to end? Maybe you should have a little faith in the author. Up to this point, she has treated them both (and the rest of the cast) pretty evenly and realistically. I seriously doubt that at this point, she's going to turn one of her main characters into some simpering doormat.

This is *supposed* to be a serious situation -- a trial, as Yukino put it. If the way out of it were easy to see, it wouldn't qualify as a trial, and as the climax of the story. Whatever the solution ends up being, I doubt it will end with Yukino surrendering her agency to Hachiman (or vice versa).
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Delphisage



Joined: 10 Jul 2020
Posts: 55
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:10 am Reply with quote
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:
she


Watari Wataru is a man.
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Birriaman



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 94
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:59 pm Reply with quote
I absolutely have no idea how this wonderful mess of a story is going to end, but after what I saw in this episode... I think the 8man/Yukinon shippers shouldn’t celebrate victory just yet. Even if he didn’t end up with Yui or Iroha, it seems pretty unlikely for him to develop something with Yukino when, in words I myself couldn’t have put better, “there is a fundamental lack of trust and respect of her needs” (aka the relationship), at least up till now.

Their friendship already seems to be headed towards a bitter end, which makes me wonder how Yui will react to it, given she was the only one with the guts to come up with a plan to save it, by putting all cards on the table, and the only one of the 3 MC’s who really seems to have grown during this schoolyear - 8man came out of his shell and Yukino has finally made up her mind, but the original issues and flaws in each one’s character still remain, further exacerbated by their painful return to form, so to speak.

There’s also that dangling “loser does what the winner requests” clause, which just like Yui’s cookies in 8man’s drawer, I’m sure will come back to haunt us all by the time this ends.
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4100
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:54 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The prom is a service club project

It seems to have been taken from the Student Council by Yukino's mother and given to the service club. They were supposed to help the Student Council make it happen, only Yukino's mother knows why Yukino has all the responsibility for it now.

I would find Yukino acceptable as a character if she actually talked to people rather than at them. I went into this arc wondering how Yukino would work with Iroha, considering Iroha's Hachiman like nature towards manipulation only to find out Yukino treats Iroha like a piece of furniture.

No, that's unfair as Yukino has respect for school property. As always, remember Yukino has a codependent personality so while she looks like she tries to accomplish projects that shouldn't be done by one person all by herself, she's actually trying to overcome said deficit... by doing group projects by herself. Uh huh, that makes sense.

Why do I get the feeling that in Yukino's family, using people is fine but depending on people? That's crossing the line.

The show spent three season comparing Yukino to cats and cats are among the least codependent domesticated creatures on the planet. If you want to show she's codependent, Yukino should be compared to dogs like Yui is.

So, yeah, I'm still not buying the whole "Yukino is codependent" plot. It's like when Haruno caught Hachiman staring at the Rolls and she remarked "No, you don't have to worry, there are no scratches on it." That family has no emotional tact at all.
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Kuzu



Joined: 13 Sep 2019
Posts: 145
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:15 pm Reply with quote
Birriaman wrote:
I absolutely have no idea how this wonderful mess of a story is going to end, but after what I saw in this episode... I think the 8man/Yukinon shippers shouldn’t celebrate victory just yet. Even if he didn’t end up with Yui or Iroha, it seems pretty unlikely for him to develop something with Yukino when, in words I myself couldn’t have put better, “there is a fundamental lack of trust and respect of her needs” (aka the relationship), at least up till now.

Their friendship already seems to be headed towards a bitter end, which makes me wonder how Yui will react to it, given she was the only one with the guts to come up with a plan to save it, by putting all cards on the table, and the only one of the 3 MC’s who really seems to have grown during this schoolyear - 8man came out of his shell and Yukino has finally made up her mind, but the original issues and flaws in each one’s character still remain, further exacerbated by their painful return to form, so to speak.

There’s also that dangling “loser does what the winner requests” clause, which just like Yui’s cookies in 8man’s drawer, I’m sure will come back to haunt us all by the time this ends.


I just want to point out that Yui had no actual plan in mind to solve Yukino's issues; as per own words, "she wanted it all" as in, she wanted to go out with Hachiman while still keeping Yukino as a friend, essentially saying "either make a move or I will". Had Hachiman not spoke up, things would have pretty much returned to how they were before: Hachiman would still search for his "genuine thing", and Yukino would forever live in Haruno and Hachiman's shadow, the only difference is that Yui gets a boyfriend.



Animeegomaniac wrote:
]It seems to have been taken from the Student Council by Yukino's mother and given to the service club. They were supposed to help the Student Council make it happen, only Yukino's mother knows why Yukino has all the responsibility for it now.

I would find Yukino acceptable as a character if she actually talked to people rather than at them. I went into this arc wondering how Yukino would work with Iroha, considering Iroha's Hachiman like nature towards manipulation only to find out Yukino treats Iroha like a piece of furniture.

No, that's unfair as Yukino has respect for school property. As always, remember Yukino has a codependent personality so while she looks like she tries to accomplish projects that shouldn't be done by one person all by herself, she's actually trying to overcome said deficit... by doing group projects by herself. Uh huh, that makes sense.

Why do I get the feeling that in Yukino's family, using people is fine but depending on people? That's crossing the line.

The show spent three season comparing Yukino to cats and cats are among the least codependent domesticated creatures on the planet. If you want to show she's codependent, Yukino should be compared to dogs like Yui is.

So, yeah, I'm still not buying the whole "Yukino is codependent" plot. It's like when Haruno caught Hachiman staring at the Rolls and she remarked "No, you don't have to worry, there are no scratches on it." That family has no emotional tact at all.


I'm getting the feeling that you don't like Yukino as a character very much.
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Birriaman



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 94
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:32 pm Reply with quote
Kuzu wrote:
Birriaman wrote:
I absolutely have no idea how this wonderful mess of a story is going to end, but after what I saw in this episode... I think the 8man/Yukinon shippers shouldn’t celebrate victory just yet. Even if he didn’t end up with Yui or Iroha, it seems pretty unlikely for him to develop something with Yukino when, in words I myself couldn’t have put better, “there is a fundamental lack of trust and respect of her needs” (aka the relationship), at least up till now.

Their friendship already seems to be headed towards a bitter end, which makes me wonder how Yui will react to it, given she was the only one with the guts to come up with a plan to save it, by putting all cards on the table, and the only one of the 3 MC’s who really seems to have grown during this schoolyear - 8man came out of his shell and Yukino has finally made up her mind, but the original issues and flaws in each one’s character still remain, further exacerbated by their painful return to form, so to speak.

There’s also that dangling “loser does what the winner requests” clause, which just like Yui’s cookies in 8man’s drawer, I’m sure will come back to haunt us all by the time this ends.


I just want to point out that Yui had no actual plan in mind to solve Yukino's issues; as per own words, "she wanted it all" as in, she wanted to go out with Hachiman while still keeping Yukino as a friend, essentially saying "either make a move or I will". Had Hachiman not spoke up, things would have pretty much returned to how they were before: Hachiman would still search for his "genuine thing", and Yukino would forever live in Haruno and Hachiman's shadow, the only difference is that Yui gets a boyfriend.


I never said it was a plan to solve Yukino’s issues. It was a plan to solve Yui’s own issues - getting into a relationship with 8man while keeping her friendship with Yukino alive. And no, it was not a good plan. It was a very cruel and deceptive plan that took advantage of Yukino’s deeper, more serious, codependency and insecurity issues. Yui flat out admits to it when she says “I’m not a good girl” and by already expecting 8man to go against it.

The problem here is that Yui is actually a very likeable person, so it comes across as counterintuitive that she would manipulate her friends that way, something she probably did while feeling extremely guilty but did nevertheless because she was being driven by desperation, something the latest episodes have shown she seemingly was right about. But she did at least have the guts to try SOMETHING, which she actually went out of her way to do, which is so much more that I can say from the other two dumbnuggets.
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Kuzu



Joined: 13 Sep 2019
Posts: 145
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:04 am Reply with quote
Birriaman wrote:
Kuzu wrote:
Birriaman wrote:
I absolutely have no idea how this wonderful mess of a story is going to end, but after what I saw in this episode... I think the 8man/Yukinon shippers shouldn’t celebrate victory just yet. Even if he didn’t end up with Yui or Iroha, it seems pretty unlikely for him to develop something with Yukino when, in words I myself couldn’t have put better, “there is a fundamental lack of trust and respect of her needs” (aka the relationship), at least up till now.

Their friendship already seems to be headed towards a bitter end, which makes me wonder how Yui will react to it, given she was the only one with the guts to come up with a plan to save it, by putting all cards on the table, and the only one of the 3 MC’s who really seems to have grown during this schoolyear - 8man came out of his shell and Yukino has finally made up her mind, but the original issues and flaws in each one’s character still remain, further exacerbated by their painful return to form, so to speak.

There’s also that dangling “loser does what the winner requests” clause, which just like Yui’s cookies in 8man’s drawer, I’m sure will come back to haunt us all by the time this ends.


I just want to point out that Yui had no actual plan in mind to solve Yukino's issues; as per own words, "she wanted it all" as in, she wanted to go out with Hachiman while still keeping Yukino as a friend, essentially saying "either make a move or I will". Had Hachiman not spoke up, things would have pretty much returned to how they were before: Hachiman would still search for his "genuine thing", and Yukino would forever live in Haruno and Hachiman's shadow, the only difference is that Yui gets a boyfriend.


I never said it was a plan to solve Yukino’s issues. It was a plan to solve Yui’s own issues - getting into a relationship with 8man while keeping her friendship with Yukino alive. And no, it was not a good plan. It was a very cruel and deceptive plan that took advantage of Yukino’s deeper, more serious, codependency and insecurity issues. Yui flat out admits to it when she says “I’m not a good girl” and by already expecting 8man to go against it.

The problem here is that Yui is actually a very likeable person, so it comes across as counterintuitive that she would manipulate her friends that way, something she probably did while feeling extremely guilty but did nevertheless because she was being driven by desperation, something the latest episodes have shown she seemingly was right about. But she did at least have the guts to try SOMETHING, which she actually went out of her way to do, which is so much more that I can say from the other two dumbnuggets.


Well that's the point; Yui is the foil to Hachiman and Yukino, she's willing to do things that they aren't capable of doing. The difference is, what she desires (Hachiman as a bf, and Yukino remaining her bff) isn't what they desire ( a "genuine" relationship) and that's why her "plan" was never going to work...at least for the other two.

Sure, I commend her for taking action but I can't exactly applaud her for trying to emotionally manipulate two people who aren't really equipped to handle that, even if I know she meant no actual harm by it , because she's a dumb teenager.

But is does perfectly illustrate why Yui's efforts were doomed from the start, her values are just fundamentally different from what her friends want. Its why Yui said she never wanted anything "genuine", because in her case, "genuine" means watching her crush and best friend gradually grow closer and eventually leaving her behind.

Being Yui is suffering.
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Birriaman



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 94
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:57 pm Reply with quote
I guess we agree, then.
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alaskaslim



Joined: 26 Nov 2010
Posts: 26
Location: The Land Up Over
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:01 pm Reply with quote
Richard Eisenbeis wrote:

Thanks for the complements. I'm glad the reviews are proving insightful.

As for whether Haruno is acting for or against Yukino, I think that, at least in her mind, she is helping Yukino--forcing her to realize her own limits, the unfair nature of the world, and the need to stand on her own.

It goes a bit further than that I'd say, but I'm glad to see you also see something redeemable in her actions.

From your review of Season 3 ep 4.
Quote:

While the villain of this episode might seem to be Yukino's mother at first glance, far worse is the puppet master behind the scenes, Haruno. Throughout the series, Haruno has showed up at the most inopportune times to make her sister's life harder. In fact, even before that, she enjoyed terrorizing her younger sister growing up—and it's not hard to imagine why: jealousy.

Haruno is the opposite of Yukino. She always had a plan for her life laid out in front of her. While Yukino was expected to do nothing, Haruno was expected to do everything—to be the perfect child and heir. From Haruno's viewpoint, Yukino has freedom—endless possibilities for her life—while even as an adult, Haruno's a slave to her family's expectations.


I agree Haruno is motivated partly by jealously; this somewhat comes across in the last episode of season 2.

But at the same she is also motivated by care. In season 1 ep 9 you see her idly reflect on "Yukino wasn't chosen again" while talking to Hachiman and Yui at the fireworks show. This was in reference to Yukino not getting picked to be the family successor.

You also have this exchange with Hiki in S1 ep11 about how an enemy can prompt growth (these are from Yahari Analysis, in case anyone's curious):

https://imgur.com/a/elFq9#SsNcEpn
https://imgur.com/a/3pv59#E8aZBIj

To "help" Yukino avoid becoming like her (or worse, their Mother), she's acting as a midboss. Challenging her so that Yukino can take on the real show that is their mother.

I'll have to disagree with you here and say that their mother is the main obstacle, as she seems dead set on making Yukino a mini-Haruno in most other respects. To include forcing her to seek the sciences.

In addition to seeing Yukino avoid her path, what Haruno wants is to reestablish a connection with her sister. Partly because she cares, partly because she's lonely. She states her desire for this rekindling several times throughout the story (including in a e-mailed request to the Service Club in volume 6.5, don't know if the anime adapted that), but always couches it in a teasing tone that makes it appear disingenuous. It's not though, this is simply how she's learned to express her desires. Expressing it with a built-in distance from it.

Going back to S3 Episode 4, there's also how Hiratsuka-sensei reacts to Haruno instructing Hiki to stay out. If Hiratsuka thought Haruno was just acting out of spite, or that Haruno's words weren't necessary, we wouldn't have gotten that smile from her.

The scene tonally is presented as Haruno being gruff, but genuine in her own right. She's laying out the gauntlet Hiki and Yui need to respect.

Also, while she didn't say much in the initial exchange, Haruno seems to me to be defending the prom, not trying to convince their mother to squash it. Haruno sees this as the replacement for Yukino running for student council, so she's all for it.

Quote:

However, the trick isn't that Yukino lacks something—hence why should couldn't find it. Rather, it's that she still has something Haruno and Hachiman don't have: hope.


In most respects I agree, but she does have hope now in that Hiki and Yukino will show her something genuine. That's part to why she ships them as hard as Sensei, and why she plays the imp, jibing them when they fall into disingenuous ruts.

==========================================================

BTW, just throwing this in: anyone else notice that the sky in the OP's ending shot changes episode to episode?

Episode 3 it's a blue sky, most other episodes it's either cloudy or snowing.
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