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The X Button - Excused Absences

gatotsu911 wrote:

Harping on douchebag Internet misogynists is so easy and obvious it shouldn't even be necessary

You realize this is the attitude that leads to people just "accepting" that every single comments section is chock-a-block with hideous racism and misogyny, right? That's the way it is, after all! If you're surprised by it you're a naive idiot, if you try and do anything about it you're a fool who can't stop the way things are. Just shut up and accept it because hey son, this is the internet.

At what point do people who rightfully hate that sh*t actually try and do something about it rather than just accepting it as the status quo? The internet is so full of the worst parts of the human id it's ridiculous, and yet if you're not cool with that and not just passively accepting of the godawful crap that people vomit somehow you're the unbelievable moron.

All I know is this lady - intentionally or not - started a massive internet drama and walked away being defiantly hailed as a saint by half the video game blogosphere and with a whole bunch of money in her pocket. So naturally, yes, I'm skeptical.

I actually agree completely with the first three paragraphs here, except that as someone having come onboard this massive flame war on the ass-end of it I can honestly say that the money thing is what made me suspicious - well, that and the fact that people were swarming to defend Sarkeesian as some kind of messianic figure above any sort of criticism. I first heard about it as "that lady who got $160,000 to make a Youtube video", and that's been the lasting impression. I can't speak to what anyone else thinks about all this and why, though!

I guess this is crossing over into something more like moral philosophy, but my personal belief with these kinds of things is that the only real valid response is to lead by example: show people that you are above this, and if they are smart they'll see that your way is stronger and better. But they need to be able to choose; you can't just shove the choice down their throat, even if you're sure it's the right one.

I guess I'm just not into trying to control people's thoughts or behavior in any way, even if it is ugly. The only answer is to be better than them.

All this talk about strong women characters has reminded me to go out and buy the new Tomb Raider. I hear it is much better than previous games of the franchise at not objectifying Lara. I also hear it is a good game in its own right.

Primus wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if 76sixty axed Phantom Breaker's release due to Microsoft's minimum print runs. Companies are required to print at least 40,000 copies on the 360. If the publisher looked at pre-orders and felt they wouldn't make those numbers, they may have just backed out.

If that's true, then that would be the exact reason why. Even recent Atelier games haven't sold over 20k, so there's no way a super niche 2d fighter would do twice what Atelier sells.

In all honesty I hope for a game industry crash then we can start over. Yes I'm horrible person for wanting millions of people out of jobs but that's where the console market is headed.

Maybe if that Kickstarter money was used to help fund an alternative gaming company that produced games by women and girls, for women and girls, I'd feel a little less cynical.

He's a person who apparently has experience with internet video production. Regardless of what his videos are generally of, he probably has some grasp of what this type of thing costs and I don't really see a reason to doubt his response.

No...that was just what all the misogynistic douchebags tried to pretend it was about after the fact to justify their outrage.

gatotsu911 wrote:

I guess this is crossing over into something more like moral philosophy, but my personal belief with these kinds of things is that the only real valid response is to lead by example: show people that you are above this, and if they are smart they'll see that your way is stronger and better. But they need to be able to choose; you can't just shove the choice down their throat, even if you're sure it's the right one.

Hell yeah I can. Or at least, we can. Granted, there are some people on the internet that will always spray their crap simply because they don't care. They're anonymous, hit and run style trolls. There's not much you can do there. But that's actually a very small minority. Most people, even on the internet, care a lot more about what other people think than they pretend. As such, public condemnation is a powerful force for change even on the internet. If people speak up against this kind of thing and send the message that the kind of casual misogyny that pervades gaming culture isn't okay, people will respond. I don't give two shits if these people actually change their opinion but they will absolutely keep it to themselves in the face of overwhelming condemnation and ostracization from their peers.

Or you could stop straw-manning radical hate misogynists and speak about the issue itself. Just a thought. Not everyone who disagrees with her is a "misogynistic douchebag" and can be herded into one category.

While it may have the effect the majority of the time of nipping truly nasty speech in the bud, it also inevitably leads to instances of legitimate thought being shut down solely because it conflicts with the group orthodoxy, or miscommunications that arise due to the interpretive nature of language (e.g. something shocking and ugly that blurs the line between relevant satire/transgressive art and simple nastiness). That's not really a collateral damage I'm okay with.

gatotsu911 wrote:

While it may have the effect the majority of the time of nipping truly nasty speech in the bud, it also inevitably leads to instances of legitimate thought being shut down solely because it conflicts with the group orthodoxy, or miscommunications that arise due to the interpretive nature of language (e.g. something shocking and ugly that blurs the line between relevant satire/transgressive art and simple nastiness). That's not really a collateral damage I'm okay with.

So you're okay with doing nothing about the blatant, rampant, harmful misogyny that pervades gaming culture...because you're not okay with the fact that it might lead to a few instances where a legitimate thought is wrongfully interpreted as such? See, again, this is where its tough not to question your motives when this is where your priorities lie.

I don't think this is a good idea--all it does is force girl gamers into a ghetto (because that's what this idea is) instead of working to stamp put anti-female attitudes in the gaming community.

What exactly will be accomplished by ghettoing girl gamers?

Nobody would give to shits about this if she wasn't producing a video critiquing gender tropes. If she had done the exact same thing, ask for $6000 to create a video, that was about something that didn't cause these people to immediately get their backs up against the wall...we wouldn't even be talking right now. Nobody would even have hear of her, or this project, because nobody would give a crap.

What do you mean "doing nothing"? What, specifically, would you define as "doing something"? I certainly disapprove of this misogyny... so what, exactly? I should be throwing money at Anita Sarkeesian? I should be saying "yea" or "nay" to something because self-proclaimed feminists tell me so?

I'm not going to get up into people's faces and tell them how to think and behave

nor am I going to search out excuses to be offended by thing other people have said or done and grandstand over them;

You can't eliminate the reality of people being crappy to one another

gatotsu911 wrote:

What do you mean "doing nothing"? What, specifically, would you define as "doing something"? I certainly disapprove of this misogyny... so what, exactly? I should be throwing money at Anita Sarkeesian? I should be saying "yea" or "nay" to something because self-proclaimed feminists tell me so?

Well for starters you could try not immediately dashing onto the field to try and throw water on the discussion. Agreeing with or disagreeing with a particular person or a particular line of thinking is not the issue. It's fine to disagree with Sarkeesian. I disagree with a lot of what she said. What you have done however is come in here and basically suggest that we shouldn't even be talking about this. You have barely even attempted to take a position on gender issues in gaming.

I'm not saying I have any sort of problem with people having critical/analytical discussions of the portrayal of women (or whatever other marginalized group) in video games.

Instead, first you raise a big stink over the money issue. Then you claim that we can't do anything about misogynist behaviour so we should just accept it. Instead...maybe try actually joining in the discussion? Speak up about misogyny when you see it. Make it know that that isn't okay.

Quote:

I'm not going to get up into people's faces and tell them how to think and behave

Really? Because if how they "think and behave" is grossly misogynist...you [expletive] should! Just silently disapproving counts for precisely nothing if you don't actually say anything.

Quote:

You can't eliminate the reality of people being crappy to one another

I already explained how, by speaking out against this kind of thing, we can do exactly that (or at least reduce it). Your only response to that was to suggest it had some minor negative consequences. Unless you have an argument against the actually effectiveness of what I have suggested, hiding behind "there's nothing we can do" is just an excuse.