Forum - View topic"Perverted" premises / stories...
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TheSwedishElf
Posts: 300 |
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ArsenicSteel, I'm finding it kinda hilarious how weirdly defensive you are of KnJ. I mean, holy shit, man.
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Anymouse
 Posts: 685 |
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Some people will stop at nothing to defend their hardcore moral values, just like Rick Perry and Mitt Romney.
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killmyself
 Posts: 168 |
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This thread should be renamed to "KnJ argument number 93945325234".
The answer to what the opening post asked is that human beings have personalities, life experiences, motivations, and interests that fluctuate wildly from person to person. From a commercial success standpoint women are generally more sexually ambivalent than men so one would assume that the gender crossover appeal for loli is greater than shota. I personally enjoyed KnJ and cried several times during it. Some of the "fan service" was unnecessary but removing the overt sexuality of Rin would have destroyed her characters depth and removed a great deal of the stories impact. I don't belong to any movie boards but I can't imagine people having the same reaction to The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Well, there is no paradox there. The story is not designed to be offensive. It is supposed to be informative. That information might be offensive to a lot of people but that is not its goal. So if you want to spread the information, you do it in the less offensive way as long as it doesn't damage the quality. If she simply wants to shock people, well she managed to do that, and this is the result. We debate whether it is a lolicon manga or not and not about the story itself. Yes, I agree that Nabokov didn't hold anything back. The reason is because nothing else was necessary, that's my point. Will KnJ be nothing special 50 years later, who can tell.
The story to my knowledge is very unique. It won't turn generic if some of the more extreme visual content is taken out. Whether it could be published in the States without the "child pornography" is another matter. Advocacy groups would be all over it. However it indeed seems that she's content with all the flak she gets.
The definition of fanservice is that it is unnecessary to tell the story. The target audience of the fanservice in KnJ are lolicons. You're just agreeing that this is partially lolicon manga which goes against what several people are arguing here. |
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ArsenicSteel
 Posts: 2370 |
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The paradox comes in the form of the author always having to second-guess herself according to whether or not what she just drew would offend someone.
The story is naturally offensive since it is about sexuality and pre-teens. Most humans find the former alone in media offensive. Mixing the two together automatically makes it a story that some would rather not exist.
If that's how you want to spread information go ahead. Various artists take pride in being able to be offensive or rather not having to self-censor themselves for the LCD and still be able relay a message.
And there are people, the author included, that are okay with the current level of fanservice. There are types of things people would deem fanservice are conducive to Rin's story. Since this is a work that is being published the unnecessary parts are now necessary in order for anime/manga to be considered whole. Ugh, I am really hate people tossing around Japanese words into the middle of conversations and expect me to know what the hell you mean. Lolicon. Do you mean it as in the genre or pedophilia? |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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I agree with this, and sincerely regret having started it. Having been a veteran of Internet flame wars before many of you were born I should have know better. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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You're statements lead to an implication that the amount of people that find a story about preteen sexuality offensive and those that find pictures of naked preteen girls (often in suggestive poses) offensive is the same. You can't prove that. My personal experience shows that there are more of the latter than the former. Another thing is that people always pay more attention to pictures than the text. That would mean that toning down the imagery would lessen the offensiveness. If she really takes pride in what she draws and that it pisses people off, I give up on her.
Neither, I meant lolicon fans. Even if I misused the word the context was clear. And if you agree that the manga contains fanservice you have to agree that at least partially it is targeted at lolicon fans many of whom most likely aren't interested in the story. |
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ArsenicSteel
Posts: 2370 |
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Well KnJ is done and by toning down the imagery you can only mean censorship and that's just going to be a long trip down a slippery slope. You are creating erroneous premises and displacing your personal feelings on what an artist should do rather than dealing with what this particular artist continues to do.
That is a too presumptuous for me to agree with. At least my comment about most people finding sexuality in media to be offensive can be reasoned from the criteria by which we relegate our media. Yours is more about mind-reading and stereotyping. There's some truthiness to it but not very reliable. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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This whole discussion from my part has been about shoulds and shouldnts and how we could evaluate that particular manga, and thus whether what she continues to do is good or bad based on the premise that KnJ is not made for the pleasure of lolicon fans. If it is made with lolicon fans and their needs in mind this discussion is over.
Then we disagree about the definition of fanservice and nothing else. I hope we agree that a lolicon fan is someone who finds an aesthetic appeal or has sexual pleasure from viewing erotic images of pre-pubescent children. |
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ArsenicSteel
Posts: 2370 |
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Well then there's the problem. I was trying to talk about the anime and I don't spend much time concerned with what another person should or should not do beyond what has already been done. Next time you quote chain me let's be on the same page.
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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@ArsenicSteel
That's fine by me. I'll only remind you that our debate started with a manga image, so if you were talking about the anime, I'm not going to blame myself for not noticing. |
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Gon*Gon
 Posts: 679 |
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Technically I never specified anime or manga, and I only posted this here because the anime forum is far more active...
Kinda surprised that a single series I mentioned was enough to completely consume the thread... I thought a site this old would have had atleast one Kodomo No Jikan thread/debate by now, guess this was the first... |
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Anymouse
Posts: 685 |
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I think we already had a marathon 14 or 20 page thread on it.
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Gon*Gon
Posts: 679 |
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Should I make a new thread to ask why many of these things in general even have a female audience to begin with or just ask here?
KnJ can be explained with a genuinely great story and Reiji, but the rest? Especially hentai clearly aimed at males? For example, I snuck a peek at my friend(female)'s hidden folders...and one of them revealed a large cache of lolicon artworks and doujins. I'd ask her why she, a girl, would like such stuff instead of shotacon...but then she would find out I snuck into her hidden folders, and then she will stick my head on a spear after murdering me. |
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ArsenicSteel
Posts: 2370 |
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Mind that your "rest" includes a couple of comedies, a romance, and action series. If KnJ can be explained as having a genuinely great story then your other examples can be explained as having genuinely great comedy, drama, romance, and/or action. Asking females what they like or don't like is better than assuming a female appreciates content similarly or differently from what a male would. |
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