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The X Button - Might Be Wrong


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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2266
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:49 pm Reply with quote
Shadow Revolution wrote:
Or this is a carefully made move to kill any future attempts to localize Fatal Frame and finally convince the grumbling fans to give up. The Digital only and now the costume change.


Honestly, I'm still a little surprised it got localized at all, but with more horror games hitting the market and doing well right now, I guess it was just good timing. That, and maybe the previous fan-localization project convinced Nintendo there were enough die-hard fans to justify releasing it.
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Zerreth



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 209
Location: E6
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:49 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:

. But even with that overlap, not all things translate well. Like Samus from Other M. Or gravure, which probably requires some familiarity with idol culture.


You're killing me. Please stop. I had no idea swimsuit models and pin-up girls were such a japanese thing that couldn't translate well. I guess the US doesn't have a problem with unrealistic expectations of the female body.
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Eldritcho



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:51 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:


Boy, I sure hope you mean "exposed female adult form" in there. Here's my take on it. Swimsuits can be sexual, yes, but you have to ascribe sexual attraction to the person wearing it first for it to be arousing. I wouldn't find certain genders or body types (ages included) attractive no matter what kind of swimsuit they're wearing, because that just doesn't rev my engine. So, in that sense, yes, I agree that swimsuit is just clothing, but that the inherent sexiness of the outfit is attributed to the person wearing it, not the outfit itself.

Could someone watching TaT find children sexually arousing? Possibly. But I don't think children wearing swimsuits automatically makes them sexual. By contrast, Yuuri's black swimsuit is HEAVILY lingerie-inspired, so it's fairly sexually charged.

I think that's what you wanted me to address, anyways.


Except that it does rev some peoples engines. Why do you think so many people think it exploits the girls in a sexual manner? Pedophiles exist, and a lot of them probably watch the show.

As for whether or not Yuuri's swimwear is appropriate, let's remember, this game is rated N17, meaning sexual themes and violence are to be expected. And considering that all the outfit does is expose her skin (it doesn't change the camera angles to emphasize her but or breast any more than the original game did already) anything sexual applied to it is entirely on the viewer.

Quote:
Age of consent refers to sex and/or marriage. In this case, I'm bringing up her age only in relation to her age of majority (18 in the States all around) and whether that makes her a minor or a major(? Not sure if that's the right term). Like I've mentioned elsewhere, the West, particularly the US, is very dodgy about the involvement of minors. Nintendo of America especially bumps up character ages to avoid this.


Except one is considered a minor in the US on a state-by-state level, there is no majority, and if there was, it would be 16 as the majority of states have that as their requirement. 18 is the age in California, where a lot of our media is made, so the "18 is age of consent in the US" is actually a cultural misconception and is really only a thing on the west coast and a few outliers. Considering that we are talking about a character being viewed with "the intent of being sexual", i'd say age of consent is the appropriate thing to go by.

Quote:
Those games all have universal themes, and not overly Japanese settings (save Persona; still getting around to playing them). Even so, just playing or being a fan of Japanese games doesn't guarantee you a Japanese mindset. You might become more familiar with tropes in their stories, yes, but you're hardly playing the game in the same mindset as a Japanese person would. That's why Samus' portrayal in Other M went over so poorly; a Japanese person would (I've been told) interpret her quiet tone as being a sign of maturity--in the West, most people found her fairly lifeless.


This game, from what i've seen of it, seems to have some pretty universal themes as well, while still retaining it's Japanese trappings. Unless it's all about the most obscure of tea-ceremony-etiquette-based-13th-century-political-family-honor-dealings-farmer-rights-generational-coi-ghost-girl stories, I think people will be able to get it.

(that last sentence was a joke, by the way)

Also, from what i hear, most Japanese gamers hated Other M as well, so i'd say the cultures found each-other most agreeable on that part.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2266
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:52 pm Reply with quote
Zerreth wrote:

You're killing me. Please stop. I had no idea swimsuit models and pin-up girls were such a japanese thing that couldn't translate well. I guess the US doesn't have a problem with unrealistic expectations of the female body.


By my understanding, gravure idols are little more nuanced than swimsuit models or pin-up girls, since their appeal relies more on an appeal to youth, kind of like Korea's aagyoo (aegyoo?) thing with their musicians.
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Eldritcho



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:55 pm Reply with quote
Also, we have really exhausted most of the talking points about Fatale Frame at this point. I feel we're just going around in circles now.
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Paiprince



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 593
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:57 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
Paiprince wrote:


Persona is heavily rooted in Japanese culture and mythology yet it got super popular. This argument about something being "too Japanesey" does not hold water especially when gamers now are clamoring for more Japanese games to come over, uncut obviously. Asides, Senran Kagura there's Oneechanbara, Akiba's Trip, Arcana Heart etc. Better believe it but the enthusiasm for underage girls isn't rooted to just Japan, despite what your daily a person I disagree with politically blogs say otherwise.


You're putting words in my mouth again. I'm not saying a game being too "Japanese-y" means it won't sell well. I'm saying playing Japanese games won't logically translate into having a Japanese mindset. Also, those "gamers clamoring for more Japanese games" are a niche market, one that overlaps with anime fans. But even with that overlap, not all things translate well. Like Samus from Other M. Or gravure, which probably requires some familiarity with idol culture--also not a thing even all anime fans overlap with, and I'd hazard a guess that gamers who are familiar with both are a minority.


They're a minority out of the simple virtue that AAA publishers don't give a damn about them and look out to the casuals more and more. Gamers and Anime fans share a lot of tastes through and through. Yeah, there are those that don't, but I'd hardly label them as niche post FF7 era.

Also, who's to say initially unfamiliar people of Japanese culture will never grow to think like the Japanese? It's a two way street, just as how Japanese learned to accept aspects of American culture the same can be true in reverse. Don't assume one is virtually incompatible to another.

whiskeyii wrote:
Zerreth wrote:

You're killing me. Please stop. I had no idea swimsuit models and pin-up girls were such a japanese thing that couldn't translate well. I guess the US doesn't have a problem with unrealistic expectations of the female body.


By my understanding, gravure idols are little more nuanced than swimsuit models or pin-up girls, since their appeal relies more on an appeal to youth, kind of like Korea's aagyoo (aegyoo?) thing with their musicians.


Oh dear lord. Are we gonna have another debate featuring cultural dissonance?


Last edited by Paiprince on Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:03 pm Reply with quote
Eldritcho wrote:

Except that it does rev some peoples engines. Why do you think so many people think it exploits the girls in a sexual manner? Pedophiles exist, and a lot of them probably watch the show.


I think you'll find that I agreed that the possibility of a pedophile watching and enjoying the show existed.

Eldritcho wrote:

As for whether or not Yuuri's swimwear is appropriate, let's remember, this game is rated N17, meaning sexual themes and violence are to be expected. And considering that all the outfit does is expose her skin (it doesn't change the camera angles to emphasize her but or breast any more than the original game did already) anything sexual applied to it is entirely on the viewer.


I knew I should've been clearer here. What I meant by referring to Yuuri's outfit was that it was an example of an outfit that was sexually charged, that's all. Her outfit is technically in the clear, since she's an adult (19). Miu's outfit, the white bikini, isn't, because she's a minor, and the cutscene it's in has forced, lascivious camera angles. She's also still underage (17).

Eldritcho wrote:

Except one is considered a minor in the US on a state-by-state level, there is no majority, and if there was, it would be 16 as the majority of states have that as their requirement. 18 is the age in California, where a lot of our media is made, so the "18 is age of consent in the US" is actually a cultural misconception and is really only a thing on the west coast and a few outliers. Considering that we are talking about a character being viewed with "the intent of being sexual", i'd say age of consent is the appropriate thing to go by.


Um, I think I confused you on this point. I think Nintendo's issue is having an underage girl being targeted in a skimpy outfit using skeevy camera angles that focus on her breasts and butt. In this case, the age of majority is the only thing that matters, because Miu is not participating in any sexual activities (unless you count gravure as an extension of porn). So, the game is showcasing a moment that is very obviously sexualizing a minor, something that's a big no-no in Western society.

As for the age of majority, I found a chart that breaks it down state-by-state. Every age of majority is 18, except in Utah and Ohio, where graduating from high school makes you an adult. http://contests.about.com/od/sweepstakes101/a/agemajoristate.htm

As for the last bit about Japanese mindset, my only point is that playing Japanese games would not necessarily make you open to the same things a Japanese person would find socially acceptable. Sexy teenagers? A-okay in Japan, less so in the West. And playing Japanese games isn't likely to make you any more or less accepting of them if you've been raised in a Western-based society, where that kind of thing is discouraged.

Paiprince wrote:

Also, who's to say initially unfamiliar people of Japanese culture will never grow to think like the Japanese? It's a two way street, just as how Japanese learned to accept aspects of American culture the same can be true in reverse. Don't assume one is virtually incompatible to another.


Accept? Yes. Understand? Eh...I could buy that someone who surrounded themselves with and/or lived in another culture would eventually become accustomed to that culture. I don't know if they would ever fully assimilate into that culture, though. Still, playing a few Japanese games is hardly going to get you to that level of total immersion.

Paiprince wrote:

Oh dear lord. Are we gonna have another debate featuring cultural dissonance?


That's...what my point has been this whole time? That Nintendo of America believed their Western (broad) audience would not resonate well with how this game portrays a sexualized minor as an extension of Japanese culture and its approach to sexuality, and thus made appropriate changes.
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Paiprince



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 593
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:09 pm Reply with quote
Sexy teenagers not ok? Yeah, Hannah Montana, Kim Possible and many others would like to have a word...even if the 17 year old in the game looks pretty much of age (full bust and all.)

I'm done. You're obviously stuck in your own delusions of Westerners being incapable of openly enjoying the sexuality of adolescents and how its culture is as guilty of this as Japan's (and the rest of the world by proxy.).
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2266
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:14 pm Reply with quote
Paiprince wrote:
Sexy teenagers not ok? Yeah, Hannah Montana, Kim Possible and many others would like to have a word...

I'm done. You're obviously stuck in your own delusions of Westerners being incapable of openly enjoying the sexuality of adolescents and how its culture is as guilty of this as Japan's (and the rest of the world by proxy.).


...I take it you don't remember how many people flipped out when Miley Cyrus had nude photos done? That backlash was SEVERE. Can't blame Nintendo for wanting to avoid that.

Also:

Paiprince wrote:
even if the 17 year old in the game looks pretty much of age (full bust and all.)


I'd just like to point out how much this reminds me of the "I swear officer, she looked older!" line used to poke fun at pedophiles. Laughing Not taking a dig at you or implying anything about your sexuality. I just found it genuinely funny that this line cropped up in real life.


Last edited by whiskeyii on Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 2336
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:22 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
-snip-


That is ultimately a huge problem plaguing critiques of games: the cultural differences. As much as people try to deny it, a huge chunk of the major game developers and publishers are Japanese, a culture with HUGE differences in social norms. Thus quite a bit of translation is involved when localizing titles, even ones set in Japan like the Shin Megami Tensei franchise. Let's face it, for all we cry about "censorship", if something was 100% translated straight there would be fits aplenty, even among people decrying this whole thing.

Of course even with that, the costumes just weren't in good taste. Again, violence and titillation do not mix. It's just awkward at best.
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Eldritcho



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:31 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I knew I should've been clearer here. What I meant by referring to Yuuri's outfit was that it was an example of an outfit that was sexually charged, that's all. Her outfit is technically in the clear, since she's an adult (19). Miu's outfit, the white bikini, isn't, because she's a minor, and the cutscene it's in has forced, lascivious camera angles. She's also still underage (17).


Except she isn't in Japan, nor is she in 4/5th of the US. And as for majority, the only legally binding aspect of that in the states is about prison sentences for minors, with the rest just being social consciousness and habit. construct and habit. Nintendo would not get in trouble showing her in such a manner in the majority of the US, and if they were that worried about it, just age her up to 18.

Seems a lot easier than deleting content, which is why I feel this is less of not wanting to get into legal hot water, and more "ew, boobs, how obscene".

Quote:
Um, I think I confused you on this point. I think Nintendo's issue is having an underage girl being targeted in a skimpy outfit using skeevy camera angles that focus on her breasts and butt. In this case, the age of majority is the only thing that matters, because Miu is not participating in any sexual activities (unless you count gravure as an extension of porn). So, the game is showcasing a moment that is very obviously sexualizing a minor, something that's a big no-no in Western society.


The age of majority in the US is, by legal sense, only applicable in any serious as to whether or not one is sent to prison when convicted or not. Because this discussion is about a person being portrayed in a sexual manner, which implies people are meant to find her sexy or not, age of consent would come into play.

Quote:
As for the last bit about Japanese mindset, my only point is that playing Japanese games would not necessarily make you open to the same things a Japanese person would find socially acceptable. Sexy teenagers? A-okay in Japan, less so in the West. And playing Japanese games isn't likely to make you any more or less accepting of them if you've been raised in a Western-based society, where that kind of thing is discouraged.


As I stated previously, this is an N17 title. Anyone who is buying or playing this should be mature enough to handle the subject matter present, including sexual elements. It would be like censoring Caligula (which has been done, and it's terrible); taking out the sex and violence of an X or NC17 movie/game is pointless as the viewers are already prepared to see such material, and if they aren't, are not obligated to view it. Censoring it comes off as needless and prudish, and makes the audience feel cheated a bit.


Quote:
Accept? Yes. Understand? Eh...I could buy that someone who surrounded themselves with and/or lived in another culture would eventually become accustomed to that culture. I don't know if they would ever fully assimilate into that culture, though. Still, playing a few Japanese games is hardly going to get you to that level of total immersion.


But it's enough to let you play and enjoy the game.

Quote:
Paiprince wrote:

Oh dear lord. Are we gonna have another debate featuring cultural dissonance?


That's...what my point has been this whole time? That Nintendo of America believed their Western (broad) audience would not resonate well with how this game portrays a sexualized minor as an extension of Japanese culture and its approach to sexuality, and thus made appropriate changes.


And what i believe isn't getting across in this board is that some of the people here disagree with that decision because they feel insulted by the notion that NoA feels players can't understand such facets of Japanese culture (which as others have stated, have some correlating aspects with western culture).




Also, oh my god. We are going around in freakin circles. Can we please move on?
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Eldritcho



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:34 pm Reply with quote
AiddonValentine wrote:


Again, violence and titillation do not mix. It's just awkward at best.


Actually they do. Quite well in fact. The horror genre has been mixing the two since the 1920's, with hardcore sex becoming a mainstay by the 70's.

Maybe it just isn't for you.
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whiskeyii



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:37 pm Reply with quote
Eldritcho wrote:
Nintendo would not get in trouble showing her in such a manner in the majority of the US, and if they were that worried about it, just age her up to 18.

Seems a lot easier than deleting content, which is why I feel this is less of not wanting to get into legal hot water, and more "ew, boobs, how obscene".

Also, oh my god. We are going around in freakin circles. Can we please move on?


Fair enough. I just want to add that I'm also confused why they didn't just age her up (though I've heard there's a time shift involved, so maybe they had to keep her that age to make her status as a student plausible? I think it would've saved a lot of trouble to just age her up instead.

I also feel that, with the general fiasco of Gamergate, Quiet from Metal Gear Solid, and the whole business with female developers generally being treated poorly, Nintendo probably wanted to avoid rocking the boat as much as possible, especially when it came to female characters in games.

But yeah, that's enough for now. I've stated my point enough times in this thread that it doesn't bear repeating.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:48 pm Reply with quote
Shadow Revolution wrote:
Or this is a carefully made move to kill any future attempts to localize Fatal Frame and finally convince the grumbling fans to give up. The Digital only and now the costume change.


True, I could honestly forgive nearly all of this however not having a physical release in the states is just a no sale for me. Keep in mind those who own an original Wii-u models "white 8gb" will have to buy an external HDD just to play this game.

To those who own a 32gb deulxe model.. this game will take up around 14-20gb of your Wii-u's internal memory. NOA doesn't really seem to care about this series or it's fans that much. Hell there was hardly any mention of FF: Maiden of Black Water at E3 this year, or hell any other gaming/anime expo.
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Eldritcho



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:50 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:


Fair enough. I just want to add that I'm also confused why they didn't just age her up (though I've heard there's a time shift involved, so maybe they had to keep her that age to make her status as a student plausible? I think it would've saved a lot of trouble to just age her up instead.

I also feel that, with the general fiasco of Gamergate, Quiet from Metal Gear Solid, and the whole business with female developers generally being treated poorly, Nintendo probably wanted to avoid rocking the boat as much as possible, especially when it came to female characters in games.

But yeah, that's enough for now. I've stated my point enough times in this thread that it doesn't bear repeating.


I can see why they would want to avoid doing that, but after the controversy over the heels on Samus and the outcries against Princess Peach, it just sounds to me more like they are making concessions to people who aren't their player base to begin with.

But yeah, we've made our points, and I thank you for being so calm and courteous in our discussions.
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