Forum - View topicNEWS: Bleach Manga's 'Thousand Year Blood War Arc' Gets Anime
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Rai The Noblesse
 Posts: 77 |
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^this LF to it too! and Bleach still has the best and cringgy " I planned this along" Moments xD (being overused today in other media. even Bond movies) just hope they keep / use the best series music soundtrack.. (or if they use new ones, they must be on par with the recent ones) |
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4613 |
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I think the comparison is natural, as both arcs featured a main character getting captured and whisked away to another world, the protagonists traveling to said world only with difficulty and at a severe power disadvantage, an organization of numerically-ranked enemies with conflicting motivations and loyalties, Ichigo fighting a sub-boss who later comes over to his side and assists him, infighting between the aforementioned numbered enemies, a final conflict in which Ichigo unleashes a brand-new ultimate form (granted that one's a shounen staple), and Aizen pulling some sort of last-second gotcha twist that turns everything on its head. I mean, now that I typed it all out like that, I think there's even more of a direct overlap than I initially gave credit. As for why I'd label it pointless...spoiler[well, the entire initial premise for abducting Orihime is that Aizen needs her powers to repair the Hogyouku. Aizen even shows it to her directly and leads her on. And then we get to the end, and Hollow Ichigo defeats Ulquiorra, and everything's good, and surprise! Aizen never needed Orihime in the first place! It was all just a ruse to...distract everyone or something? I genuinely do not understand why Kubo thought this was a good narrative decision, as it completely undermines the tension that the whole arc was theoretically set up to provide. There's no amazing cathartic moment like Ichigo appearing before Rukia on the execution grounds, and her yelling at him while also crying, because she realizes that the people she cared about her risked everything to save her life. There's none of that. I remember sitting there at the end feeling like my time had been wasted.] |
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Mr. sickVisionz
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It's Bleach so I'll watch it. I just hope it's good.
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CelestialEmpress
 Posts: 113 |
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Yes there's 200+ chapters to adapt, but a lot of those are fighting chapters (and not very good ones) that could be sped through quickly. So many unsatisfying side character fights that we can get past in a single episode instead of wasting three goddamn months on a psychotic clown screwing around with a sentient, disembodied limb.
The entire arc was pretty awful in general, but the gold star goes to that final fight. spoiler[What final fight?] If the anime's got one thing going for it, it's that literally any alteration they make can only improve it. |
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Nonaka Machine Gun B
 Posts: 819 |
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OK, this is BS. This fight was amazing. It is BLEACH to a tee. Everything I could possibly point out as a positive is embodied here. |
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BlueBeast33
Posts: 151 |
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It's not the comparisons itself that I ever had an issue with, it's people using the comparisons to heavily criticize the arc. Should we criticize One Piece because the structure of each arc when the Strawhats arrive at a new island are similar? Should we criticize Naruto because it spends several arcs (more than Bleach) trying to "rescue" Sasuke and bring him back to the Leaf village? My point here is, if a mangaka does something, and it works, then there's nothing necessarily wrong with attempting it again. In Kubo's case, he only ever attempted it a single time after Soul Society, so a grand total of twice. Orihime is the weak link in the Hueco Mundo arc unfortunately, though she has a couple of good moments, but that arc was way more than just about her. That's why I felt the mention of the entire thing being "pointless" didn't make sense. |
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Top Gun
Posts: 4613 |
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I'm not really bashing Kubo for using a similar basic structure in another arc, since as you noted many authors will riff on a similar theme in different ways. But given just how many common elements there are between the two, and how much less enjoyable the Hueco Mundo arc was than the Soul Society arc that preceded it, I do feel like that has to be a knock on the series. I think that if you want to reuse the basic framework of a story later on, you have to add some variation to it, whether it's changing up the progression in some significant way or the framing that provides the arc context. In my opinion that's something that Oda has done extremely well throughout the entirety of One Piece's run. (I won't speak to defend Kishimoto, because for my money Naruto's infatuation with Sasuke is easily the worst core element of that series.) In addition to that, I think that Hueco Mundo was hurt by the fact that it was essentially back-to-back with Soul Society (minus the setup material in-between); maybe if there had been some more time separation between them the comparisons wouldn't be as much of a given.
And was Hueco Mundo really about all that much more than Orihime? spoiler[Ichigo and his friends had no reason be there other than to rescue her, Aizen pretends that he needs her to fix the Hogyouku, and in actuality he uses her in an attempt to lure some of the Soul Society officers to Hueco Mundo so that he can be free to sacrifice Karakura.] She's the driving force behind each of these plot threads, and if she's not there, none of them have any reason to happen. |
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Nordhmmer
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Top Gun
He had written himself into a corner as far as Orihime and her OP power-Kubo simply hand waved the issue away during the Hueco Mundo Arc. . |
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Top Gun
Posts: 4613 |
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Oh, I fully agree with that, and the worst part is that it was totally unnecessary. Orihime's powers started out as this fun quirky thing, but at some point Kubo decided to go from "she can heal people" to "she can reverse the flow of time itself," and I don't think for a second that he fully thought through the ramifications of this until it was too late. If he had just left her alone, he wouldn't have needed to worry about it. Probably my biggest frustration with Bleach is how often Kubo either left plot threads dangling, or else didn't fully flesh out the world-building elements he had set up. I could probably write about this all day, but it doesn't belong here. |
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BlueBeast33
Posts: 151 |
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I see your point of view on Hueco Mundo, though I think it more so just comes down to personal preference. Taking the Japanese as an example, the Arrancar saga as a whole was very popular with them, and Espada like Grimmjow and Ulquiorra were very high up there in character polls. While I'm not necessarily saying this is proof of what the quality of the arc is, it does at least show that what Kubo wrote here did resonate with his target audience. This was pretty much the peak of Bleach's popularity (though oddly enough I think the most sold volume is Turn Back the Pendulum. The Vizards are also really popular).
When it comes to Hueco Mundo, I can agree that Orihime could arguably be considered more of a macguffin than anything else, though at the very least it shows the bond that the main cast shares for one another. As for other things in the arc that are worthwhile, I'll talk about a few: spoiler[1) Ichigo himself goes through multiple stages of change in relation to his hollow side, something that wouldn't have happened if he stayed in Karakura. His rivalry with Grimmjow is already set up with 2 prior fights, and the climactic 3rd one serves to give some development to not only Grimmjow and Ichigo, but also with Orihime and her relationship with her brother from when he became a hollow himself. I'm glad that at least here she gets something. In the Ulquiorra fight, Orihime does unfortunately take more of a backseat, and my least favorite part of that fight is her crying out for Ichigo to help her. I always felt Kubo should have made Tsubaki a lot more powerful so that her offensive capabilities could at least compete with her defensive and healing powers. So on the whole, that fight is more about developing Ichigo's hollow side and at the very end exploring Ulquiorra's nihilistic nature, which is kind of bittersweet in that he finally started to understand human emotion right at the very end as he's dying.] spoiler[2) Rukia arguably has her most important moment in the entire arc here where she finally faces the demons of her past with the loss of Kaien in her fight against Aaroniero. In the SS arc, it was more about receiving forgiveness from the Shiba's for what happened to their brother. Here, it's about Rukia directly facing the past itself and fully growing from and understanding what Kaien taught her as well as knowing that he never blamed her for what happened, and that she continues to carry a part of him within herself. We see the resolve that it gives her toward the end, and it allows her to strike the killing blow to Aaroniero even though she also receives potentially fatal wounds as well, which of course that is where Byakuya came in and his fight against Zommari. So of the main cast, aside from Ichigo and his many struggles, Rukia, in my opinion, has the most important part in the arc.] spoiler[3) Sticking with the main cast for a little bit longer, I suppose I can cover the other three here. Admittedly, Uryu and Renji don't get a ton in terms of growth, though Uryu arguably does some in his first two fights against Aisslinger and Cirucci, as we get to see an expansion of his quincy powers that as far as I know he didn't have prior. We get a little bit of that against Szayel too, but that entire fight was more about teamwork, at least initially. It got to the point where Mayuri had to come in and save their butts. I guess it's worth mentioning here though since I brought up Mayuri that the bodies found in Szayel's lab at the end of that fight do play a role in the final arc, though to be honest, I feel as though Kubo ended up not doing as much with that as he originally planned to, but it was still something that came into play later. Chad does get some important development with the discovery of his new powers, something that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't gone to Hueco Mundo. His powers are greater there which helps him to figure out that they are more hollow like in nature. This turns out to be true as we all know when we later learn about Fullbringers. In his battle against Gantenbainne, he's able to both awaken the true power of his right arm, which is actually for defending, and the power of is left arm which is where his real offensive power is. I never liked that he got taken out right after he wins his fight, but it doesn't take away the power he gained.] spoiler[I could go into characters that we actually meet in Hueco Mundo, such as Nel and her importance and her relationship with Ichigo, but since this post is already fairly long I suppose I won't. I mainly wanted to touch on the main cast, though there's still more I could talk about even though I covered a large chunk of the arc. Not everything they do in this arc is needed of course. The battle against Rudobone for example could have been scrapped and pretty much nothing would change, so there is some fluff in the arc too, but there's also a good deal of character exploration that takes place that wouldn't have happened had everyone just stayed in Karakura. Plus you kind of leave out a crucial aspect of the world building of the series if you don't introduce Hueco Mundo. So while Orihime's character arc didn't go as far as it needed to, there's plenty of other events that happen and character arcs that do get some proper exploration that in my estimation make the arc worthwhile.] |
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Xiximaro
Posts: 151 |
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The probability of this being a incredible flop is so high that I'm even scared to watch... If adapting a manga to anime isn't already difficult, adapting an Arc that was so royally butchered from almost the middle of it to end as the story went will be fruitless job. Unless they brake the mold and give Kubo complete authority to refit the story to what he wanted to do in the manga in the first place... cause I'm not seeing another way out for this to be good.
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Top Gun
Posts: 4613 |
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I tend to put next to no stock in character popularity listings, as you're almost guaranteed to get people answering on a purely superficial level: "He's really cool! He's so powerful! She looks awesome!" And there's nothing wrong with that, it's what those polls are designed to do, but I don't find the results particularly useful. I'm far more interested in the critical side of things: "Was this character well-written? Do they have a proper motivation for their actions? Are their reactions believable?" That's where I put my focus. I did enjoy Grimmjow myself, but Ulquiorra always felt like one of those characters who has a cool design but essentially zero personality, and that doesn't do much for me. My personal impression of the Arrancar as a whole was "the Gotei 13 officers, but less interesting." And I never meant to imply that nothing else of consequence happened in Hueco Mundo, as you yourself laid out. (Pretty much everything you mentioned could have taken place at any arbitrary location, though.) It's just that the only reason for Ichigo and his friends went there in the first place was to rescue Orihime, just as the entire reason for them originally going to the Soul Society was to rescue Rukia. The main difference between the two was that Rukia was taken there to be executed and would have actually died had they not gone, while Aizen took Orihime to...troll everyone? I hope you can see why one might find that immensely unsatisfying. I tend to very much dislike those sorts of "lol, gotcha!" moments from authors, because unless there's a good justification given for them they feel like they're simply stringing the reader along for no payout. If Kubo wanted his characters to go to Hueco Mundo, he had any number of other motivations he could have used that wouldn't have involved that letdown. And while I'm talking about letdowns, your bringing up Kaien reminds me of another. Rukia made a huge deal right from the get-go about how much Ichigo reminded her of Kaien in appearance and personality, and given what we know of how the Soul Society is supposed to work, it always felt like it would have been a great thematic element to have Ichigo be the reincarnation of Kaien's soul into the human world, to reinforce the connection between them. I know that Kubo eventually went a different route, but it always felt like a bit of a missed opportunity. (Plus that would imply that Kubo ever properly established the Soul Society's mechanics...) Last edited by Top Gun on Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BlueBeast33
Posts: 151 |
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Yeah, I just brought up the character polls as one example of the Espada's popularity. Volume sales are typically the best measure of things (though nowadays you have to include digital sales as well), but the volume sales were highest during this time. Worth noting that the Japanese tend to have vastly different opinions on anime & manga compared to the west. Not that the Arrancar stuff isn't popular here, but I would say the SS arc is probably more popular. Of course, that's mainly just from what I see online, I suppose there's no real way to know for sure.
The point of most of what I put in those spoilers tags though was that most of that development couldn't have happened unless they went to Hueco Mundo. Staying in Karakura town wouldn't have progressed much of anything for any of the main cast, especially Ichigo, Rukia, and Chad. Ichigo also would have never been prepared to fight Aizen without his HM battles. Like I said though, Orihime is the weak link, so I get the frustration. I happen to think Kubo tends to do a pretty good job with his female characters, but Orihime was always hit or miss depending on the arc. That said, apart from forcing someone from the main cast to go to HM, I don't see much else that would have worked. There was never a plan for anyone to go before that, and I'm not really sure what else Aizen could have done to trick them into coming there. Empty threats definitely wouldn't have worked. I don't really have an opinion one way or another on the Kaien/Ichigo stuff. Ichigo being spoiler[part Shiba] was enough for me, though I certainly wouldn't mind if that gets expanded upon when the anime returns. Anyway, good talking with you. I don't really have much else to say on this topic. Like everyone else though, I'm hoping for major changes to this final arc in the anime, because lord knows it's desperately needed. Creators rarely get a second chance like this, so I'm hoping Kubo doesn't squander it. |
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Top Gun
Posts: 4613 |
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Yeah, I didn't really want to bring up the whole aspect of different tastes for different fanbases, but that's definitely part of it. I can't count how many Japanese character popularity polls I've seen where I look at someone in the top 5 and think, "...are you kidding me? They're terrible!" (*coughsasukecough*) I think it's probably natural that the Arrancar Arc would have been where the volume sales peaked regardless, as it's a natural progression of the show continuing to build its popularity and headed towards a big climactic showdown.
Of course you don't want your characters stuck in the same place for the entire series, but I don't think it would have been too hard to get the main characters into Hueco Mundo without using Orihime. Just off the top of my head: instead of having Aizen need to be in Karakura in order to create the Ouken, have his plan take place in Hueco Mundo instead. Maybe have Uruahara be the one who gets wind of it, since Aizen's plan is based off of his research in the first place. Maybe the Soul Society won't listen to the warnings (that's all they seem to be good at), so being the plucky shounen protagonist that he is, Ichigo decides to go in himself, and of course his friends won't let him go alone. That's just one quick-and-dirty solution by a person who can't write. I'm sure someone else could come up with a much better method. At the end of the day I fully agree with you: for everyone's sake, I hope this adaptation is able to correct the flaws in this final arc and produce a good product. |
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db999
Posts: 303 |
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I'm surprised, not just that the show is returning, but that I'm so excited to see the final arc animated. I liked Bleach for the most part, but I found this arc pretty disappointing overall. I actually did like the plot of this arc, but it didn't have nearly enough story material for 20 volumes. The biggest problem with the arc is how much time was spent on the battles of side characters. I understand the want to give everyone a time to shine before the end of the series, but a lot of these fights just stopped the plot in its tracks. I wouldn't have a problem with this if some of the fights were shorter or more entertaining, but I found a lot of them really dull. That's mostly because most of the fights followed the same formula and a lot of them taking 5 chapters each. I actually think it's for this exact reason the series got canceled. Rather than spending time developing the plot, he spends time giving every character a fight scene instead. It got so infuriating I stopped reading it until halfway through and didn't finish it until they announced the series had been canceled.
That was a shame because the plot, when he bothered developing or spending time on it, was pretty good. Some characters got some pretty good development, my 2 favorite moments were when spoiler[it was revealed that Unohana name was Yachiru and was actually the former captain of squad 11 that Kenpachi had respected so much, and the backstory on Ichigo's dad being a Shiba and his mom being a Quincy and childhood friend of Uryuu's dad.] So it's not as if I hated the arc. I just think they could easily improve the arc, by condensing as much of the inconsequential fights as possible, and also by extending the final battle. |
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