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Banden
Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 140
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 Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:53 am
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| Surrender Artist wrote: | | Your constant citation of the 'Puritan defense' never seems to actually directly address anybody who's actually talking here, but sneers at a generic authoritarian American prude who's barely here, if at all. When Tuxedocat tries to counter it by pointing out that her husband has no objection to sexuality in things like A Game of Thrones, you dodge by leaping at a chance to disqualify him for prejudice against animation and then return to your original argument merely by resorting to asserting, "documented cultural history," without directly addressing or relating it to what Tuxedocat wrote. |
Ask her to marry a more convenient example then? Since I'm only responding to what I'm being given, I'm not really sure what you think I should be doing different. If tuxedocat's husband is ha ha for Game of Throne's hoo hoos, more power to him. I wish Queen's Blade got as much respect in the West as Game of Thrones. She was the one who brought him into the conversation.
I'm being judicious about who I address directly because I'm trying to be tactful. For one, I don't actually know any of you, and I could be overstating. For two, if I'm right that person will probably flip out and throw a shit fit like your average racist does when you confront them about being a racist. That's not my goal here. I'm trying to put my point of view out there, and have the conversation we're having right now. This is good. I can't confront every person who holds a deep seated belief that anime fanservice is a mortal sin, and generally that's not typically what changes people's minds in these discussions anyway.
What I do know is that Puritanism does in fact have a long and sorted history in American culture, and any number of sex-inspired moral panics that have erupted over the past few years only, show pretty unambiguously that the Puritan fear and hatred of sexual behavior remains incredibly strong, and it's hard not to see its influence on the discussion we've been having when people talk about anime fanservice being disorienting and painful to them, only to turn around and insist that they appreciate sexually expressive characterizations...
| tuxedocat wrote: | | Well, by that logic, I would have to agree. It's for children. We can't really call it "sexual fanservice", because it really isn't sex. It's just "voyuerism fanservice", since the sex act itself hardly ever occurs (despite the fact that the narrative would probably benefit from it's inclusion). My understanding of my husband's POV is that he has long since graduated from that adolescent-peeping-faze of male sexual development. |
Okay, whatever, but... That would apply to Game of Thrones and True Blood in equal measure, would it not? Because while I haven't actually seen either show, based on what I do know of premium channel original programming, they don't typically give you full-on intercourse either... Like The Tudors, it's mostly "voyeurism service" frontal nudity and innuendo... Exactly the same as the typical fanservice anime?
| tuxedocat wrote: | I find it rather ridiculous of you to equate my husband's disinterest in this kind of voyeurism to racism.  You are really starting to clutch at straws here. Granted, he is not as into animation as much as I am, but there are quite a few shows that he likes very much. |
I believe by way of analogy I pretty unequivocally equated his state of denial to theirs, but that's no problem, if we're easing back on actually reading eachothers whole posts now, that's fine, will save me time better spent replying to more thoughtfully composed commenters!
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Anymouse
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:00 am
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| RyanSaotome wrote: |
| tuxedocat wrote: | | Well, by that logic, I would have to agree. It's for children. |
This topic has fallen so far that we're now saying that sexual fetish stuff is being made for kids? I think I'm done here now, this is getting too absurd to continue. |
I think I can pretty convincingly argue that all of modern sexuality is basically a form of immaturity. I am pretty sure I could find plenty of sociologists to agree.
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RyanSaotome
Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:05 am
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| Anymouse wrote: |
| RyanSaotome wrote: |
| tuxedocat wrote: | | Well, by that logic, I would have to agree. It's for children. |
This topic has fallen so far that we're now saying that sexual fetish stuff is being made for kids? I think I'm done here now, this is getting too absurd to continue. |
I think I can pretty convincingly argue that all of modern sexuality is basically a form of immaturity. I am pretty sure I could find plenty of sociologists to agree. |
While it may be "immature" if you look at normal standards, its hardly for kids. The majority of this stuff is aimed at the 18-40 male demographic in Japan. Its not the kids who are paying 400 dollars per series after all.
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tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:20 am
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| Banden wrote: | | If tuxedocat's husband is ha ha for Game of Throne's hoo hoos, more power to him. |
How aptly you prove my point. LOL 
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HitokiriShadow
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:30 am
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| RyanSaotome wrote: |
| tuxedocat wrote: | | Well, by that logic, I would have to agree. It's for children. |
This topic has fallen so far that we're now saying that sexual fetish stuff is being made for kids? I think I'm done here now, this is getting too absurd to continue. |
Teenagers are often referred to as "children" and "kids", and tuxedocat specifically said "adolescents" in the same post, so its safe to say that when she said "children", she was talking about preteens/young teenagers, not ~5 year olds. "Kids" that age are most definitely interested in these kinds of things and there are definitely shows and manga being made to cater to their budding sexual interests.
While its true that most of the buyers of anime are going to be adults, that doesn't mean the content can't be juvenile and immature. And remember that anime isn't being made solely to sell the DVDs/BDs, they are also made to help sell the manga/light novels and various other merchandise that is well within a teenager's purchasing power. The things that are generally considered fanservice (pantyshots, boob groping, inconvenient walk-ins on girls changing clothes and the like) originated in manga that were aimed at ~14 year old boys and often so are the very shows being made that contain them.
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Vantos
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 102
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:35 am
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| Banden wrote: | | What I do know is that Puritanism does in fact have a long and sorted history in American culture, and any number of sex-inspired moral panics that have erupted over the past few years only, show pretty unambiguously that the Puritan fear and hatred of sexual behavior remains incredibly strong, and it's hard not to see its influence on the discussion we've been having when people talk about anime fanservice being disorienting and painful to them, only to turn around and insist that they appreciate sexually expressive characterizations... |
As for that, my answer wasn't some backpedal to avoid being accused of puritanism, but me genuinely agreeing with your perspective since you showed me an angle I hadn't considered before. I said there was too much fanservice, you said there was too much done badly (and gave examples of how to do it well), and I agreed after reading your explanation.
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tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:42 am
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| HitokiriShadow wrote: |
| RyanSaotome wrote: |
| tuxedocat wrote: | | Well, by that logic, I would have to agree. It's for children. |
This topic has fallen so far that we're now saying that sexual fetish stuff is being made for kids? I think I'm done here now, this is getting too absurd to continue. |
Teenagers are often referred to as "children" and "kids", and tuxedocat specifically said "adolescents" in the same post, so its safe to say that when she said "children", she was talking about preteens/young teenagers, not ~5 year olds. "Kids" that age are most definitely interested in these kinds of things and there are definitely shows and manga being made to cater to their budding sexual interests.
While its true that most of the buyers of anime are going to be adults, that doesn't mean the content can't be juvenile and immature. And remember that anime isn't being made solely to sell the DVDs/BDs, they are also made to help sell the manga/light novels and various other merchandise that is well within a teenager's purchasing power. The things that are generally considered fanservice (pantyshots, boob groping, inconvenient walk-ins on girls changing clothes and the like) originated in manga that were aimed at ~14 year old boys and often so are the very shows being made that contain them. |
This. --though the conversation was becoming hilariously absurd. 
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Charred Knight
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:27 pm
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| dandelion_rose wrote: |
| Charred Knight wrote: | |
Never seen Madoka, I know little about Madoka, I plan to never see Madoka ( I just never saw the appeal with shows like that) so I wouldn't know anything about it outside of people like Zac occasionally mentioning it. |
FAIL. "I'm too hip an otaku to watch Madoka".
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If you want to argue with me then argue with me don't argue with some fictional person that actually says "I'm too hip an otaku to watch Madoka".
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TitanXL
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:48 pm
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| Lightning Leo wrote: | | Wow. I remember very clearly back when I was a kid in middle school, I got a love note in my locker asking me to meet the girl behind the bus stop. I stuffed it into my backpack thinking "I'm way too young to be having a relationship", and that was that. Had nothing to do with my upbringing, since my dad was a ladies man womanizer, I just honestly thought I wasn't mature enough for it. That sorta stuff never crossed my mind as a kid, but I have heard of it starting surprisingly young. I've never heard of fanservice for kids, but hey if you say it's out there, I can believe it. You learn something new everyday. |
Look up sexting some time. You got elementary school kids, junior high kids, and kids of all ages trading nude photos of themselves to each other in text messages. Saw it quite a bit back when I worked for a school.
| Ojamajo LimePie wrote: | | Listen to the woman here. Breasts don't wobble if you're wearing a bra that fits. |
Bras. That's a good one. Barely any girls wore those when I was in college.
But I was speaking of swimsuits here, which are not bras. Bikinis, at least the ones girls wear for their looks rather than swimming, don't support women like a fitting bra does. Just go down to the beach, or just YouTube "bikini" and the first result shows you what I mean. Maybe I'm a bit of an privileged-case though, since my college is right by the beach so it's a pretty common sight. (Of course, this assumes the women in question are endowed enough)
So he's the John Kricfalusi of anime then.
| Banden wrote: | | That would apply to Game of Thrones and True Blood in equal measure, would it not? Because while I haven't actually seen either show, based on what I do know of premium channel original programming, they don't typically give you full-on intercourse either... Like The Tudors, it's mostly "voyeurism service" frontal nudity and innuendo... Exactly the same as the typical fanservice anime? |
Yes, it's the same. The only difference is one is animated and the other is not. Saying otherwise just reveals unfounded bias against one format.
| tuxedocat wrote: | | Well, by that logic, I would have to agree. It's for children. We can't really call it "sexual fanservice", because it really isn't sex. It's just "voyuerism fanservice", since the sex act itself hardly ever occurs (despite the fact that the narrative would probably benefit from it's inclusion). My understanding of my husband's POV is that he has long since graduated from that adolescent-peeping-faze of male sexual development. |
So what does that make Playboy and porn then? You're not having sex when you look at either, you're just watching other people pose nude or do stuff, so those are definitely "voyeuristic". The only valid form of these types of activities, in your argument, would be prostitution, since you are actually able to take part in sex in that case. Anything else is "voyeuristic" by definition. I guess 99% of guys are voyeurs in that regard.
Last edited by TitanXL on Tue May 29, 2012 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GVman
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 729
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:49 pm
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You're not missing anything by not watching Madoka, either. The show had it's handfull of good episodes, but most of them were just average and relied too much on the mystery around plot elements that hadn't been explained yet. The show hit an emotional climax around episode 9 and just sort of went downhill from there.
Overall, you're not missing much.
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NotintheMood
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 36
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 2:15 pm
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| Banden wrote: |
| Surrender Artist wrote: | | Your constant citation of the 'Puritan defense' never seems to actually directly address anybody who's actually talking here, but sneers at a generic authoritarian American prude who's barely here, if at all. When Tuxedocat tries to counter it by pointing out that her husband has no objection to sexuality in things like A Game of Thrones, you dodge by leaping at a chance to disqualify him for prejudice against animation and then return to your original argument merely by resorting to asserting, "documented cultural history," without directly addressing or relating it to what Tuxedocat wrote. |
...
What I do know is that Puritanism does in fact have a long and sorted history in American culture, and any number of sex-inspired moral panics that have erupted over the past few years only, show pretty unambiguously that the Puritan fear and hatred of sexual behavior remains incredibly strong, and it's hard not to see its influence on the discussion we've been having when people talk about anime fanservice being disorienting and painful to them, only to turn around and insist that they appreciate sexually expressive characterizations...
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But on the other hand it's not like anyone on this board has accused anyone of witchcraft or demanded that they get put into the stockade. And I am pretty sure not a single person has brought up bible scripture to justify his point.
And You're right, there are people in my country who will use the bible and religion to justify their viewpoints. There are families who will refuse to let their kids read Harry Potter because it promotes magic. There are people who will gladly tell you that homo sexually is a choice and by the way here's this pamphlet they made.
But on the other hand there are many many other people who are very liberal and devoted to the idea of freedom of expression. Libertarians who think that government should get out of people's lives and modern hippies who believe that positive thinking and pot can solve most problems. Having grown up in a new age church, I can vouch that there are people who will gladly let any person wave smoke and feathers over their children in the name of a modern day cleansing ritual. (okay, honey hold still and close your eyes, she's going to smudge you now.)
But honestly most people fall somewhere in the middle and view both extremes as equally stupid. Fringe elements are present in every society, but giving them more weight then the moderate views that most people hold is misleading.
edit: to try to make more sense . . may need to edit more but that might require more sense then I have at the moment.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3820
Location: Louisville, KY
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 2:58 pm
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| Charred Knight wrote: |
| dandelion_rose wrote: |
| Charred Knight wrote: | |
Never seen Madoka, I know little about Madoka, I plan to never see Madoka ( I just never saw the appeal with shows like that) so I wouldn't know anything about it outside of people like Zac occasionally mentioning it. |
FAIL. "I'm too hip an otaku to watch Madoka".
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If you want to argue with me then argue with me don't argue with some fictional person that actually says "I'm too hip an otaku to watch Madoka". |
Pretty much this isn't /a/ where anything becomes popular they have to troll the hell out the threads that come up on said shows. I miss stein's gate's tuesdays but now..  whatever
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Charred Knight
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:33 pm
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| Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote: |
| Charred Knight wrote: |
| dandelion_rose wrote: |
| Charred Knight wrote: | |
Never seen Madoka, I know little about Madoka, I plan to never see Madoka ( I just never saw the appeal with shows like that) so I wouldn't know anything about it outside of people like Zac occasionally mentioning it. |
FAIL. "I'm too hip an otaku to watch Madoka".
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If you want to argue with me then argue with me don't argue with some fictional person that actually says "I'm too hip an otaku to watch Madoka". |
Pretty much this isn't /a/ where anything becomes popular they have to troll the hell out the threads that come up on said shows. I miss stein's gate's tuesdays but now.. whatever |
When have I ever said a single negative thing about Madoka? I know almost nothing about Madoka I have never even seen the opening.
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dandelion_rose
Joined: 12 May 2012
Posts: 657
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:35 pm
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| RestlessOne wrote: |
| Hypeathon wrote: | |
*sigh* Ah, man. Dai Sato couldn't have been more on the mark. Most anime these days really don't do much of anything other give people a reason to run away from their problems. |
Wait, what? How am I running away from my problems? And what 'problems' are we speaking of? Other than these little moments where I wish I could be someone else (which is a very human thing) and ignoring my anxiety issues, I am honestly happy. I've soul-searched, I've helped people, and I've found where I belong. Or were you being sarcastic? |
Yeah that was kind of an asexuality awareness fail on Hypeathon's part yeah? (Ah, one of the good things about BBC Sherlock fandom -- proliferation of knowledge on 'what is asexuality'!)
I don't know if willfully being a single 30-year old woman is a 'problem' either, but tbh I kind of like the 'escapist hikikomori dork' image.
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RestLessone
Joined: 02 Aug 2009
Posts: 1426
Location: New York
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:49 pm
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| dandelion_rose wrote: |
| RestlessOne wrote: |
| Hypeathon wrote: | |
*sigh* Ah, man. Dai Sato couldn't have been more on the mark. Most anime these days really don't do much of anything other give people a reason to run away from their problems. |
Wait, what? How am I running away from my problems? And what 'problems' are we speaking of? Other than these little moments where I wish I could be someone else (which is a very human thing) and ignoring my anxiety issues, I am honestly happy. I've soul-searched, I've helped people, and I've found where I belong. Or were you being sarcastic? |
Yeah that was kind of an asexuality awareness fail on Hypeathon's part yeah? (Ah, one of the good things about BBC Sherlock fandom -- proliferation of knowledge on 'what is asexuality'!)
I don't know if willfully being a single 30-year old woman is a 'problem' either, but tbh I kind of like the 'escapist hikikomori dork' image. |
Ah, I suppose I should be used to it now. I guess I just assume people on the ANN forums have at least heard of it. Don't know why, though; perhaps because homosexuality has been brought up time and again. Of course, I have a close gay friend who had no idea what asexuality was until I came along. I know a few people who are into the BBC Sherlock series, though I'm only slightly aware of the asexual aspect of the show. How is it?
I don't think it's a problem, especially because you (seem) happy and don't view it as something bothersome. It's only a problem if one sees it as something they want to change. Even in that case, being a single or what have you is still nothing others have the right to be critical of.
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