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maybe. there might have been a large number of women out of the 10000 who bought the game. unfortunately, circumstances have prevented us from getting to know that many. maybe once they get out of SAO and move on to the next virtual game there might be more of a chance for female bonding

zensunni wrote:

The version I saw didn't involve any ass grabbing and nobody actually paid any attention to the two of them until she hit him. That is why I thought you must have seen a different version that had much more explicit and detailed groping, since you had already denied that you were using hyperbole, I must take you at your word that you saw ass grabbing and bystanders watching the show, ala "The Accused" while Kirito groped her.

I looked at the tape again and there was no ass grabbing. I think I thought he grabbed her ass because he grabbed her boobs three times and it was a strange close up angle so I thought one of them was an ass grab. Now, personally, I don't think that makes it better that he grabbed and squeezed her boobs 3 times rather than 2 times with one ass grab, but you can take that as you will.

As far as bystanders watching, you are setting up a straw man. What I said was "he just gropes her openly right in public and no one around them does anything? If I saw some girl stumble and fall into some strange looking guy, and then he started just openly squeezing and grabbing at her boobs and her butt I would be outraged and tell him to stop that." I didn't say anything about specific individuals being depicted as watching them. I was commenting about the general impropriety of a scene in which Kirito was groping a girl right in public as if this was just something that was his entitlement by being a man, and there is no problem with this. However, if you look at the crunchyroll version, at 13:58 there is a man in blue garb looking directly at where Kirito and Asuna are laying, and afterwards at 14:20, there are two guys staring at Kirito in surprise after he just got super punched. There were people around aware of what was happening, you can fill in the blanks of what they saw, but that is not the point I was making. The point was the problem of this grope scene being out there in public with it seemingly being just OK.

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Why does this scene cause you to not take Asuna seriously as a character, by the way? Is it her fault that the accidental groping occurred? (Other than the fact that, yes, she knocked him down...) Is there something in the way her character behaved in the groping scene that makes you think that she is weak and not a character to be taken seriously? Or is it only the aftermath, when her bodyguard shows up and she hides behind Kirito. (Which I said in my original post I found a bit odd, but after hearing the dialog, understood that she was freaking out about the guy waiting outside her house.)

I thought that this scene made her look weak because she immediately ran and hid behind Kirito after it happened. I put that in my post. However, I don't think you are understanding my argument as a whole. My primary argument is not about Kirito or Asuna as individual real people acting in a certain way in the real world, and whether or not those actions make them strong or weak. My primary argument is about the writing creating these scenarios which diminish them, and in this case, diminish Asuna. The writing made her weaker as a character because it established her as a sex object for the audience to enjoy watching being groped. It also established her as a prize to be fought over by two men, one of whom just groped her and the other who just forcefully grabbed her by the arm and is dragging her away. For her then to whimper and basically consent to this whole situation, again, it is the writing setting her up in a way that is, in my opinion, at a minimum weak.

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I also find it fascinating that you feel that someone else should have done something about the violation of her person by Kirito, instead of her taking care of it, which she did

I didn't say anything about Asuna not taking care of Kirito groping her. Please point out where I did. I had no problem with her punching him. I was asking why she wasn't punching other people just like she punched him! Again, my statement about people around doing nothing was simply a commentary about how Kirito was able to do this openly in public and have it just seem like business as usual to anyone other than the girl being groped. (and perhaps even business as usual to her, since after she punches him she immediately goes and runs behind him like he's her protector - I just don't see that being very realistic or flattering to her)

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After Kirito proves he is the stronger of the two and offers to allow the guy to continue with a new weapon, Asuna, who is no longer freaking out about a guy hanging around outside her house first thing in the morning, disarms the bodyguard with a single sword stroke, relieves him of his duty to her, and orders him to return to headquarters to await further orders.

I never disagreed with the point that Asuna later disarms her bodyguard. However, I still have a problem with her cowering and waiting for Kirito to protect her in the first place. That is what I think diminishes her as a female lead. She can only act after Kirito protects her, not before. You may not agree but that is what I see there and I think it was a failed opportunity for Asuna to stand up for herself.

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Somehow, you perceive her as weak. I can only assume that is because she was freaked out by finding a guy stalking her. (Regardless of whether it is her bodyguard or not, it is reasonable for her to be freaked out by that. Kirito was pretty shocked when she said it too.) I am not a woman, but if my daughter, in eight years when she is in college, called and told me that a some guy was waiting for her outside her dorm room without her permission, I would be freaked out.

You are ignoring the other reasons I said why I think she is being written as weak and setting up a straw man instead. I did not say I found her weak because she was freaked out by a guy stalking her. I said she was being portrayed in a weak manner because of a large combination of things, e.g: comes thru teleporter and is groped several times publicly by a male, and aside from a single super punch, this is more or less OK, runs and hides behind that male who just groped her because a big bad man is coming after her, gets grabbed by the arm by that big bad man and sort of whimpers as she is dragged along, has to have another cool BAMF male (the same guy who just groped her) physically stop her from being dragged away, has these two males declare that they will duel over who gets to "protect her," and then consents to all of this and steps back to let the two big men handle things for her and decide her fate. This, to me, is a set up for a diminished female lead.

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So, is it not a natural reaction for a woman to be freaked out in a situation like that? Is it not reasonable that she might be scared by it and want to get away from him so much that she runs away? After he finds her again, and she argues with him, he then tries to physically take her away against her will. Regardless of what you think about how Asuna should have reacted to that, you seem to think that Kirito stopping him makes it a sexist moment in the show. (While other people not doing anything when Kirito was, unknowingly, violating her person is aslo evidence of sexism.)

I am not saying men or women cannot be freaked out by troubling situations. Like I said, it is how we react to troubling situations which shows our character. Asuna was written into a situation where she was made into a sexualized object and fought over by two men. She was then powerless to free herself from all of this and waited for the two men to decide her fate. As I explained in a previous post, this is not about whether or not Kirito was trying to be some gallant knight in saving Asuna. You have to realize how I am analyzing this thing. It is not about whether Kirito is acting in a way which shows he cares, it is all about the writing creating a diminished, helpless damsel who is submitting to the whims of one of two men, who are now to fight over her. That is what I am talking about and you should be addressing that.

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Anyway, now that Kirito has committed the heinous sexist act of trying to stop a larger, stronger man from taking away the person that he is officially partied with for the day, it is another case of sexism when he is directly challenged, asks Asuna if it is OK that he accept it, and then duels the guy, giving him an out to stop. When he doesn't and Asuna does what you were saying she should have done in the first place, you still perceive the scene as undermining her strength and presenting her as weak.

First, you are focusing again on whether or not Kirito himself, as a real person, would be seen as a gallant knight for trying to help Asuna against a big bad man. That is not the issue. The issue is the writing creating this situation in the first place. Also, it still doesn't make sense to me why Asuna is afraid of this bad man when she is ostensibly stronger than him. As to the second point, I assume you are talking about the spot where Asuna comes in to disarm the guy after Kirito already beats him. Yes, I do think she is portrayed as weak when she had to wait for Kirito to save her (right after he groped her), before she could act. I have been trying to make this point all along.

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

gingi789 wrote:

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

Polycell wrote:

Reading through this massive mess, I think we can agree that the events of SAO involving Asuna have a perfectly nonsexist internal logic but can have a somewhat sexist presentation(not counting the groping, of course).

I do think that ChibiKangaroo seems dead set on the worst interpretation possible, though.

Conclusory statements prove nothing. Disprove what I argued with actual facts or arguments. My interpretation is shared by many in this forum and supported by the facts, so unless you have something better, you aren't adding much.

Seriously? With all of the much more worthy contenders this season (So I can't play H, Aesthetica, Koichoco, Imouto) the standard bearer you choose to display sexism in anime is Sword Art Online? Not to mention that you seem to convienently forget the fact that in episode 6, when Lizbeth landed on him, there were no ecchi hijinks? Dude, people are going to have different opinions then you. Let it go.

Did I say no one could have a different opinion than me? What are you arguing about? It seems more to me like you trying to say that I can't have my opinion, which is what you just did in your post. You are saying that I can't consider the sexism in SAO because there are ecchi shows in this season, then say I am trying to stop other people from having their own opinions? That makes no sense. I am presenting an argument on why I am disappointed by the treatment of Asuna as a character. Some have agreed with me, some haven't. Some of those who haven't
have attacked my opinion, and I have defended it. So somehow that means I am trying to stop them from having an opinion? Are you expecting me to just say "Ehh, all that stuff that I was just saying.. all those facts and arguments I laid out, I was just funnin there. I now completely change all of my thoughts to agree with the other side just to be cool." Uh, No. I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my concerns about Asuna as a character. As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I do think the show SAO is improving overall as far as entertainment value, but the development of the leads has been weak and Asuna is gradually shrinking. I hope that changes.

Oh really? Pick out the direct quote where I said you couldn't have your own opinion. Go ahead, take your time and find it. I'll wait.

What I did say is that you're beating a dead horse. Yes, we know that you think sexism is rampant in SAO. Yes, we know that you will go to the ends of the earth make sure no one's opinion differed from yours. And I'm sure as long as someone responds, you can do this till the next The Stream comes out. Debates aren't supposed to be marathons. People are going to disagree with you.

As for SAO being a dark show, I disagree. Another is a dark show. Mirai Nikki is a dark show. Sword Art Online? Not so much.

gingi789 wrote:

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

gingi789 wrote:

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

Polycell wrote:

Reading through this massive mess, I think we can agree that the events of SAO involving Asuna have a perfectly nonsexist internal logic but can have a somewhat sexist presentation(not counting the groping, of course).

I do think that ChibiKangaroo seems dead set on the worst interpretation possible, though.

Conclusory statements prove nothing. Disprove what I argued with actual facts or arguments. My interpretation is shared by many in this forum and supported by the facts, so unless you have something better, you aren't adding much.

Seriously? With all of the much more worthy contenders this season (So I can't play H, Aesthetica, Koichoco, Imouto) the standard bearer you choose to display sexism in anime is Sword Art Online? Not to mention that you seem to convienently forget the fact that in episode 6, when Lizbeth landed on him, there were no ecchi hijinks? Dude, people are going to have different opinions then you. Let it go.

Did I say no one could have a different opinion than me? What are you arguing about? It seems more to me like you trying to say that I can't have my opinion, which is what you just did in your post. You are saying that I can't consider the sexism in SAO because there are ecchi shows in this season, then say I am trying to stop other people from having their own opinions? That makes no sense. I am presenting an argument on why I am disappointed by the treatment of Asuna as a character. Some have agreed with me, some haven't. Some of those who haven't
have attacked my opinion, and I have defended it. So somehow that means I am trying to stop them from having an opinion? Are you expecting me to just say "Ehh, all that stuff that I was just saying.. all those facts and arguments I laid out, I was just funnin there. I now completely change all of my thoughts to agree with the other side just to be cool." Uh, No. I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my concerns about Asuna as a character. As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I do think the show SAO is improving overall as far as entertainment value, but the development of the leads has been weak and Asuna is gradually shrinking. I hope that changes.

Oh really? Pick out the direct quote where I said you couldn't have your own opinion. Go ahead, take your time and find it. I'll wait.

What I did say is that you're beating a dead horse. Yes, we know that you think sexism is rampant in SAO. Yes, we know that you will go to the ends of the earth make sure no one's opinion differed from yours. And I'm sure as long as someone responds, you can do this till the next The Stream comes out. Debates aren't supposed to be marathons. People are going to disagree with you.

You demanded to know why am I talking about sexism in SAO. Then said "let it go," i.e. stop stating your opinion or concede to other side.

Beating a dead horse means arguing about something that is no longer alive or being considered. It generally refers to a situation where everyone is in agreement or no one is any longer contesting something, and then one person keeps "beating the dead horse." Clearly, several individuals, including yourself, believe that this topic is quite alive and wish to continue arguing your position. That is your right. Argue away.

I didn't say sexism is rampant in SAO. I have said that there have been scenes which are sexist in nature and diminish some of the female characters. Again, you are free to argue against that. I'm not saying you can't and never have.

I haven't said anywhere that no one's opinion can differ from mine. Most of my responses to this point have been to someone doing exactly what you are doing here, attacking me or trying to discredit something I've said. I would expect you to do the same. Please, continue to disagree. That is your right, just as it is mine. Thank you.

Sexism in SAO has been discussed for 18 pages?! Shocked

I'm glad people care about women's portrayal in media, but this horse has been beaten far past it's death. What's left of its corpse needs to be buried already.

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

gingi789 wrote:

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

gingi789 wrote:

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

Polycell wrote:

Reading through this massive mess, I think we can agree that the events of SAO involving Asuna have a perfectly nonsexist internal logic but can have a somewhat sexist presentation(not counting the groping, of course).

I do think that ChibiKangaroo seems dead set on the worst interpretation possible, though.

Conclusory statements prove nothing. Disprove what I argued with actual facts or arguments. My interpretation is shared by many in this forum and supported by the facts, so unless you have something better, you aren't adding much.

Seriously? With all of the much more worthy contenders this season (So I can't play H, Aesthetica, Koichoco, Imouto) the standard bearer you choose to display sexism in anime is Sword Art Online? Not to mention that you seem to convienently forget the fact that in episode 6, when Lizbeth landed on him, there were no ecchi hijinks? Dude, people are going to have different opinions then you. Let it go.

Did I say no one could have a different opinion than me? What are you arguing about? It seems more to me like you trying to say that I can't have my opinion, which is what you just did in your post. You are saying that I can't consider the sexism in SAO because there are ecchi shows in this season, then say I am trying to stop other people from having their own opinions? That makes no sense. I am presenting an argument on why I am disappointed by the treatment of Asuna as a character. Some have agreed with me, some haven't. Some of those who haven't
have attacked my opinion, and I have defended it. So somehow that means I am trying to stop them from having an opinion? Are you expecting me to just say "Ehh, all that stuff that I was just saying.. all those facts and arguments I laid out, I was just funnin there. I now completely change all of my thoughts to agree with the other side just to be cool." Uh, No. I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my concerns about Asuna as a character. As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I do think the show SAO is improving overall as far as entertainment value, but the development of the leads has been weak and Asuna is gradually shrinking. I hope that changes.

Oh really? Pick out the direct quote where I said you couldn't have your own opinion. Go ahead, take your time and find it. I'll wait.

What I did say is that you're beating a dead horse. Yes, we know that you think sexism is rampant in SAO. Yes, we know that you will go to the ends of the earth make sure no one's opinion differed from yours. And I'm sure as long as someone responds, you can do this till the next The Stream comes out. Debates aren't supposed to be marathons. People are going to disagree with you.

You demanded to know why am I talking about sexism in SAO. Then said "let it go," i.e. stop stating your opinion or concede to other side.

Beating a dead horse means arguing about something that is no longer alive or being considered. It generally refers to a situation where everyone is in agreement or no one is any longer contesting something, and then one person keeps "beating the dead horse." Clearly, several individuals, including yourself, believe that this topic is quite alive and wish to continue arguing your position. That is your right. Argue away.

I didn't say sexism is rampant in SAO. I have said that there have been scenes which are sexist in nature and diminish some of the female characters. Again, you are free to argue against that. I'm not saying you can't and never have.

I haven't said anywhere that no one's opinion can differ from mine. Most of my responses to this point have been to someone doing exactly what you are doing here, attacking me or trying to discredit something I've said. I would expect you to do the same. Please, continue to disagree. That is your right, just as it is mine. Thank you.

Actually, the let it go meant accepting that people are going to have different opinions than you. If you equate different opinions as "I can't have my own opinion, that's your issue. And stating that my opinion is different than yours is different from attacking you, which I have not done. And on all your posts, you have complained about how bad the sexism is in SAO. Whether its Kirito fighting the duels, or the camera angles, or the boob grab, you keep making making the same arguments over and over, no matter what anyone else says. So yes, you are beating a dead horse. You and Zetsunni can both have your opinions, and both be correct. That's the way opinions work.

SereneChaos wrote:

Sexism in SAO has been discussed for 18 pages?! Shocked

I'm glad people care about women's portrayal in media, but this horse has been beaten far past it's death. What's left of its corpse needs to be buried already.

I've been trying, but everyone like to argue with chibikangaroo

getchman wrote:

SereneChaos wrote:

Sexism in SAO has been discussed for 18 pages?! Shocked

I'm glad people care about women's portrayal in media, but this horse has been beaten far past it's death. What's left of its corpse needs to be buried already.

I've been trying, but everyone like to argue with chibikangaroo

Lol I take that as a compliment.

getchman wrote:

SereneChaos wrote:

Sexism in SAO has been discussed for 18 pages?! Shocked

I'm glad people care about women's portrayal in media, but this horse has been beaten far past it's death. What's left of its corpse needs to be buried already.

I've been trying, but everyone like to argue with chibikangaroo

Or you could flip that and say Chibikangaroo likes to argue with everyone. Smile

gingi789 wrote:

And stating that my opinion is different than yours is different from attacking you, which I have not done. And on all your posts, you have complained about how bad the sexism is in SAO. Whether its Kirito fighting the duels, or the camera angles, or the boob grab, you keep making making the same arguments over and over, no matter what anyone else says. So yes, you are beating a dead horse. You and Zetsunni can both have your opinions, and both be correct. That's the way opinions work.

Do you REALLY seriously think you haven't attacked me at all in this thread? Come on... Go back and read some of your responses. Ohh, you just gave me an example, thanks.

Quote:

Or you could flip that and say Chibikangaroo likes to argue with everyone.

Also, I have not in all my posts "complained about how bad the sexism is in SAO." As I have said multiple times, I am talking about specific sexist or chauvinistic set ups in the last few episodes which have caused Asuna to look like a weak female lead. I don't know why I keep having to try and make that point. I am talking about bad character development here, not "omg sexism in anime!!" And you can believe your own description of what beating a dead horse is, but as I said, it is when something is already settled or no longer contested and one person keeps beating at it when no one is arguing against them. Everything that I have said about Asuna's character development has been contested and occasionally argued against fiercely. Yes, Zensunni has his opinion and I have mine. I applaud him for making his argument.

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

getchman wrote:

SereneChaos wrote:

Sexism in SAO has been discussed for 18 pages?! Shocked

I'm glad people care about women's portrayal in media, but this horse has been beaten far past it's death. What's left of its corpse needs to be buried already.

I've been trying, but everyone like to argue with chibikangaroo

Lol I take that as a compliment.

Uh huh. So everyone arguing with you is a compliment, but you arguing with everyone (which you have done on this thread) is an attack? OK....

And saying that writers are turning a female lead into a sex object isn't complaining about the sexism in a show?

The "sexism in SAO" discussion has, I think, pretty much run its course for now, as it's starting to descend into a cycle of charges and counter-charges. (And yes, I'll admit that I am guilty of getting involved in that, too.) Since the next episode is less than two days away now, I suggest a moratorium on discussing it further until the next episode, which I fully agree should clarify some things one way or the other. If people wish to discuss this matter further after that episode has been posted, carry the discussion to the series thread in the Anime forum.

Now, to clean up one matter that I didn't have time for earlier, I had promised that I would (on request) post a list of some series which had male leads but still had strong female characters who were not portrayed in a sexist light. A few that I came up with:

Black Lagoon - Yeah, Revy is a serious looker (or would be if she didn't have that perpetually foul look on her face), but she and Balalaika would both rank high on any list of anime's strongest and toughest female characters. Main character Rock struggles just to keep from being overwhelmed by them.
Spice and Wolf - Maybe one of the strongest examples. The setting may have sexist period undertones, but there's nothing sexist about the Lawrence/Holo relationship or how it develops. The overwhelming majority of the time Lawrence is at her mercy, regardless of whether she's acting strong or vulnerable, and even when he's not Holo still makes it clear that she only lives by someone else's rules if she wants to. In fact, I could imagine her being a feminist role model: a female character who is comfortable with being whatever kind of woman she feels like being at any given time.
Banner/Crest of the Stars: Yeah, the camera likes to ogle the female characters with its panning shots, but the Abh Empire is one of the least sexist settings that you'll ever find in anime and Jinto plays second fiddle to the much stronger Lafiel for all but a few scenes in the franchise.
Blue Gender: For most of the series Marlene is the stronger of the lead pair. The way that dynamic reverses over time is a major plot point, not an exercise in sexism.
Chrono Crusade: Rosette is never at a loss for strength and will beside Chrono.
Pumpkin Scissors: The big guy (Roland?) may have the raw power, but Alice's will is indomitable.

I could bring up other examples, too, but these should be enough to point out that such situations are hardly unknown in anime.

thank you Key

zensunni wrote:

Also, I always enjoy it when people can keep things on a purely non-personal and classy level! Smile

What a coincidence! I also enjoy when people aren't a bunch of sarcastic hypocrites! Smile

Chagen46 wrote:

getchman wrote:

not my fault an MMO is mostly comprised of dudes

SAO has a markedly higher amount of women than most MMOs, from what we've seen, though.

Maybe there isn't such a stigma against gamer girls in 2022?

Wasn't it stated that 90% of the SAO players are male? The only reason we've seen so many girls is because this is a wish-fulfillment show. This is Truth in Television here (most MMO players are male), so I don't think failing the Bechdel test is a good point against SAO.

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