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hikaru004 wrote:

e. Comparing adultery to this bad. Adultery represents the break down of a family, a straying away from "religious values" and a marriage contract violation. He needs to attend a Christian church and get his facts straight imo before using Bible quotes.

There is no factual, scientific, peer-reviewed documentation that with an unbiased viewpoint, family structure, values and marriage are being negatively affected by adultery or any acts deemed sinful by religious groups. The concern behind those with religious values is simply an agenda to universalize them and oppress those who have the freedom to do whatever they hell they want in private are not in line with those "religious values."

Besides Japan holds just as strong to those values too, often even more so than in North America.

Ojamajo LimePie wrote:

Only because very few people in the US take trains. If trains were as crowded here as they are in Japan, you'd see 'Women Only' cars really quick. Rolling Eyes

And it certainly happens in this country too. In my own city (Phila) there was recently an incident with a woman who was on the subway with her child. A man came up to her and held a knife to her so she wouldn't say anything while he groped her on the train. So yeah it's certainly not a problem just in Japan. I am nervous every time I take the subway.

Last edited by hikaru004 on Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

Past wrote:

hikaru004 wrote:

e. Comparing adultery to this bad. Adultery represents the break down of a family, a straying away from "religious values" and a marriage contract violation. He needs to attend a Christian church and get his facts straight imo before using Bible quotes.

There is no factual, scientific, peer-reviewed documentation that with an unbiased viewpoint, family structure, values and marriage are being negatively affected by adultery or any acts deemed sinful by religious groups. The concern behind those with religious values is simply an agenda to universalize them and oppress those who have the freedom to do whatever they hell they want in private are not in line with those "religious values."

Besides Japan holds just as strong to those values too, often even more so than in North America.

But he quoted a Christian document and scientific studies don't have a place in a religious discussion imo.

And I'm not entering into a comparative cultural discussion of family values. The author made a missteps in his rebuttal. That's my point.

Ojamajo LimePie wrote:

hikaru004 wrote:

Japan has a separate car for female only passagers on trains due to assaults IIRC. The US doesn't have the need to do so.

Only because very few people in the US take trains. If trains were as crowded here as they are in Japan, you'd see 'Women Only' cars really quick. Rolling Eyes

But the US does have crowded buses in the morning in some metro areas and there aren't female only buses.

When you get to the point of allocating a one gender only transporation vehicle, that population has a "problem" that they need to solve.

Hikaru004, it's not a religious discussion, nowhere was it implied to be. In the event the discussion is between one rational person to another rational person, religion does not even need to enter the equation. Nor does that mean it's specifically science either. The scripture comes in to play because most Japanese probably assume an American reporter to be Christian, simply because they are American. It was only included in an attempt to respect something he felt was important to Americans. I found it very respectful to appeal to the person you are arguing with on the listeners terms (not on your terms). Something very few Americans do; narrowmindedly they think their viewpoint and their religious views are the Law of the Land, and it has the final say.

Past wrote:

Hikaru004, it's not a religious discussion, nowhere was it implied to be. In the event the discussion is between one rational person to another rational person, religion does not even need to enter the equation. Nor does that mean it's specifically science either. The scripture comes in to play because most Japanese probably assume an American reporter to be Christian, simply because they are American. It was only included in an attempt to respect something he felt was important to Americans. I found it very respectful to appeal to the person you are arguing with on the listeners terms (not on your terms). Something very few Americans do; narrowmindedly they think their viewpoint and their religious views are the Law of the Land, and it has the final say.

When the Bible is quoted, it becomes a religious arguement imo. And if you quote the Koran, Tanakh or any other religiious text, you're entering into a religious arguement. You can't have it both ways imo.

Plus, how did mangaka know that the reporter was Christian? This wasn't a reporter for a Christian station but a CNN reporter. The reporter could have been Agnostic or any other religion... Not that this should have been an issue, he is a CNN reporter after all.

Now the guy (mangaka) had another misstep. Like I said before, he needed help with his rebuttal.

hikaru004 wrote:

But the US does have crowded buses in the morning in some metro areas and there aren't female only buses.

When you get to the point of allocating a one gender only transporation vehicle, that population has a "problem" that they need to solve.

Just because we don't have them in our country doesn't mean we don't need them (see my post above). I take the subway a lot and while I was never personally assaulted I have seen my fair share of weirdos on the subway and I certainly would feel a lot safer if there was an all female train. It's not really an issue at peak time but at night.

And for the record when I did ride the subway in Japan (on a regular car) I felt it was a much safer experience than I ever felt riding a subway in Philadelphia. It was a lot cleaner too.

acoleth wrote:

Again, we may live in a politically correct culture where we aren't supposed to judge one another for what we do in our own homes, and freedom of speech has become freedom of expression and is held up as the highest virtue... but that's just BS. If someone enjoys Rapeplay or some other form of rape fantasy entertainment, they need someone to tell them it is wrong and that it is poison to the mind.

Find the lyrics to WASP's "Animal".
I always loved that as a pretty good portrait of the type of guy who thinks he's all that, but couldn't land a real gal if his life depended on it, having to make due with pictures.
Alice Cooper's "Under My Wheels"-may not be rape, but it is catharsis-a guy pissed off at his g/f "You were under my wheels, honey. Why won't you let me be?"
It is called F-A-N-T-A-S-Y. God knows when I was a teen in the 70's I saw more than a few of those potboiler romances where the guy raped the woman & it was supposed to be romantic. (Not arguing the case here. I still say it was a safe way for women of the day to accept sex when they were taught sex was a chore or a duty for a wife. Good girls couldn't like sex because it was dirty. A female that liked sex was "loose" or a "slut" because proper females didn't enjoy sex).
You telling me there aren't males out there that don't imagine taking a woman who has turned them down? Males who don't pleasure themselves to mental images of violent sex?
God knows I see enough guys make negative comments about gals not putting out. There's the old "What she needs is a good F***" said behind the back of a woman.
Yes, we all understand in the real world everyone has the right to say no, but in one's imagination a whole other set of rules apply. Look at all the cat girls in anime--does that suggest every guy who likes catgirls wants to have sex with a real cat? (I have always assumed not).

acoleth wrote:

It may or may not manifest as acting out against another human being, but no one, PhD in Psychology or not, can generalize the effect of a stimulus across a sample of individuals. What we can say is that the graphic depiction of forced sodomy against a minor girl in a bathroom stall (stage 2 of Rapeplay) has absolutely no redeeming value. It's simply wrong. Wrong to create. Wrong to enjoy.

Have you actually studied this, or are you simply jumping to conclusions?
It wasn't all that long ago 12 yr olds were given in marriage. In the 1950's didn't Jerry Lee Lewis create an uproar with his 13 yr old child bride (who was also his cousin?). A century or 2 back were children under the age of 10 tried as adults & even executed as adults?

On Alice Cooper's first or 2nd album he has a short statement-"You are the only censor. You have a choice. You can turn me off--"
If you do not like this, do not buy it. Vote with your money. Heaven knows there have been many artistic efforts that have been controversial.
WHile you're beeing so upset at the idea of children accessing this (because you really can't say anything about adults possessing legal material), how about the morals of a minor purchasing materials labeled for adults?
They aren't purchasing them, you say? They're stealing them off the internet?
Don't you find theft wrong? Shouldn't you be outraged by that?

acoleth wrote:

Wrong. Even in pretend. Even in CG. Wrong.

Who made you god to judge all others?
Your standards do not apply to me.
My standards do not apply to you.

hikaru004 wrote:

When the Bible is quoted, it becomes a religious arguement imo. And if you quote the Koran, Tanakh or any other religiious text, you're entering into a religious arguement. You can't have it both ways imo.

So if someone says they don't like string cheese and I write a paragraph stating why I think string cheese is awesome does it suddenly become a religious argument if I toss in Psalm 27: 13-14 at the end of my paragraph?

I think my issues with the religious reference are rooted from the fact that it felt so...random. And was a total assumption. Whether or not Christianity is prominent here or not, I don't see why an excerpt that hasn't much to do with the topic at hand belongs in a rebuttal. Maybe if he were to just mention that some grotesque stories exist in the Bible, a book popular in the US and other nations, it wouldn't have felt so out of place. In the end, he was appealing to ethos: trying to get in touch with the reader's ethics and appealing to them to prove a point. It's common in journalism and such. However, it works best to appeal to Christianity when you're talking to people you know are Christians. I don't see why generalizing is a good idea, especially when talking to a specific person who you know nothing about. I understand that the Japanese media probably portrays Americans (and plenty of other Westerners) as a specific archetype, but it's about looking beyond that. How are people expected to not generalize a country when they do the same back?

I'm not saying it's right, of course, and I understand that he probably was trying to connect, whether with a "holier than thou" attitude or he was just invested in teaching another about the culture. But the generalization combined with other inaccuracies makes him seem like he doesn't really understand American culture; Christianity may be prominent, but we have atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, Hindus, you name it. I imagine, though, that the Japanese media doesn't exactly go into detail and more or less associates us with other Western nations, prominent Western religions, and/or radicals. Not that the original article was any better with generalizations (more like worse), but both were obviously influenced by the media they're surrounded by. I agree with Nogami's general opinion, but I wish that someone who has spent time in Western nations and understands the cultural differences could respond.

Oh, and isn't virtual child pornography banned in Canada? Do you think that Japan knows this? Because I'm certain games like these would be banned there as well...

EDIT:
Just remembered something: if he had correctly attributed the quote and didn't call the journalist out on being a Christian, instead noting that many Americans read the Bible, I think I would have seen it differently. Ignoring the sort of randomness of it, at least it would have made more sense and kept away from the pre-judging and/or prejudice.

RestlessOne wrote:

I think my issues with the religious reference are rooted from the fact that it felt so...random. And was a total assumption. Whether or not Christianity is prominent here or not, I don't see why an excerpt that hasn't much to do with the topic at hand belongs in a rebuttal.

You are right it was a silly generalization. Just like the CNN article seems to be generalizing Japan and their notion of sexuality on this one rape game and some hentai.

Generalizations might be based on some truth but they certainly shouldn't be used as a representation of an entire nation. It just goes to show how little we tend to understand about other cultures. And this is true for Americans judging other cultures and other cultures judging America.

Actually there is an office building in the downtown area of the city I live in that only locks the women's restrooms and leaves the men's restrooms unlocked. I don't know if other office buildings downtown are like this, but this one in particular has social services for poor, homeless and handicapped so it's often visited by the general public walking around the city. It's a good way to protect women because when it's always locked (you have to get a key from the receptionist) there's no way to tell if there is someone in there or not.

So it's evidence there are particular methods put into place in public areas to protect women, some are not feasible in some areas and some are in other areas (or countries). So in general, needs and measures to protect women are universal and just because only Japan might have female only traincars does not mean rape violence is worse there.

It's very disappointing to that CNN has apparently forgotten their own show, This week in Japan, which used to air on CNN on the weekends back in the 80's.

That show used to go out of its way to explore some of the stranger aspects of Japanese culture, like adult manga, simulated date videos, and compensated dating and all sorts of other topics.

It was one of the better things CNN has ever turned out. At the time, no other country anywhere had its own focus show like that. CNN deeply cared about Japan for some reason. They even sent Larry King Live to do a remote in Japan. His interview with an extremely nervous rocker Demon Kogure remains one of the more memorable things I've ever seen.

Of course, This Week in Japan was canceled a long time ago and the new CNN reporter has probably no idea her own network ever had such a show or any connection to Japan. Now, it's just another way to get in her weekly couple hundred words rehashing a topic that would be otherwise dead.

CNN wonders why their ratings keep failing. The aren't doing any of their things they did in their glory days. Do the math.

So the fact the Pope is in the mist of a scandel (not doing anything a few years ago about priests molesting boys) is not high on the priority list for parents?

I think any type sexual crime against women (or any crime in general) is wrong but to take it to this level is rediculous. I have played GTA III, Vice City, and San Andreas and I'm fine. I did good in school, went to college, graduated (and still trying to find a job), I love my family, and my gf and I have been together for 5+ years. It's the people who have psychological problems or those who need help that would take this game and do these type of actions in real life. Any rational thinking and logical adult would play this just for the hell of it and would not do these actions for real. With the media is just making this more popular. As I said before, either on this forum or another, telling people NOT to play it (or watch it) is like telling someone not to push the button sooner or later it will be pushed.

Past wrote:

So it's evidence there are particular methods put into place in public areas to protect women, some are not feasible in some areas and some are in other areas (or countries). So in general, needs and measures to protect women are universal and just because only Japan might have female only traincars does not mean rape violence is worse there.

You brought up a good point here. I'd also like to point out that the female-only train cars are not exclusive to Japan; India has them too. Also, Mexico has pink taxis that are driven by and transport women only, so I think it is unfair to label such public safety measures as being symptomatic of a problem unique to Japan.

Past wrote:

hikaru004 wrote:

e. Comparing adultery to this bad. Adultery represents the break down of a family, a straying away from "religious values" and a marriage contract violation. He needs to attend a Christian church and get his facts straight imo before using Bible quotes.

There is no factual, scientific, peer-reviewed documentation that with an unbiased viewpoint, family structure, values and marriage are being negatively affected by adultery or any acts deemed sinful by religious groups.

this is beside the point of this article post but i have to disagree with what you said back there.

isn't divorce itself, separation, the struggle of children having to cope with two separate families (the mom's and the dad's), the children sometimes denied contact with either mom or dad based on legal terms on who gets custody already considered a negative effect? i'm sure there are tons of psychology papers out there studying the negative effects on this issue. with religious marriage, marriage is obviously a religious concept subject to the laws set by that religion (where most if not all religions--i haven't really heard of adultery permitted in some culture or religion) disapprove of adultery so you can't exactly deny the religious groups their views. if they think it's bad, it's bad, and not anyone under that religion can do what they want especially if it goes against the religion's code. in fact the term "adultery" for most people carries a moral or religious association so it's almost like your entire point was invalid. adultery is negative precisely because of what it is, a term coined by these religious groups that pertain to the sinful acts of extramarital sex.

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